When Martial Arts Instructors become questionable...

[Ronin74]

Hi there. Other than my Meet & Greet intro, this would be my first real post. I'm hoping I could get some advice from possibly other instructors, or people who've been in similar situations.

I've pretty much kept a low profile in my local martial arts community for the last 5 or so years. Prior to that, I was an instructor, and received my training from a master who helped me taught me the skills of the art I taught, and helped take them to levels I never even thought I'd reach with other instructors. At one point, we were traveling and doing demonstrations for everything from local cultural events, to big martial arts-themed events. That all stopped when it started seeming like my master was focusing more on the business and notoriety, than on training.

Now I'll go on the record as saying his martial arts skills are still very much beyond those I've seen, and I don't think his skills as a teacher have diminished. However, questionable acts- such as dues paid up without any compensation, or broken promises between a teacher and student- left a bitter taste with me, and since then, I've sort of chose to disappear.

Back to the present, I've come to realize how much I love the arts, and really want to take myself to new levels. The only problem is, my previous instructor was the only one I've met who could do that. I tried going back for a few classes, but so much has changed, and it's felt more like a "watering-down" than an evolution. Other places I've trained ended up being more geared towards competitions (not that I'm against competition for the sake of improvement), and less about the art and its underlying philosophies.

So I guess what I'm asking is if anyone has ever been in a similar situation, and what would be an advisable course of action? Should I continue to practice on my own, or hope things have changed for the better? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Fiendlover]

Hi there. Other than my Meet & Greet intro, this would be my first real post. I'm hoping I could get some advice from possibly other instructors, or people who've been in similar situations.

I've pretty much kept a low profile in my local martial arts community for the last 5 or so years. Prior to that, I was an instructor, and received my training from a master who helped me taught me the skills of the art I taught, and helped take them to levels I never even thought I'd reach with other instructors. At one point, we were traveling and doing demonstrations for everything from local cultural events, to big martial arts-themed events. That all stopped when it started seeming like my master was focusing more on the business and notoriety, than on training.

Now I'll go on the record as saying his martial arts skills are still very much beyond those I've seen, and I don't think his skills as a teacher have diminished. However, questionable acts- such as dues paid up without any compensation, or broken promises between a teacher and student- left a bitter taste with me, and since then, I've sort of chose to disappear.

Back to the present, I've come to realize how much I love the arts, and really want to take myself to new levels. The only problem is, my previous instructor was the only one I've met who could do that. I tried going back for a few classes, but so much has changed, and it's felt more like a "watering-down" than an evolution. Other places I've trained ended up being more geared towards competitions (not that I'm against competition for the sake of improvement), and less about the art and its underlying philosophies.

So I guess what I'm asking is if anyone has ever been in a similar situation, and what would be an advisable course of action? Should I continue to practice on my own, or hope things have changed for the better? Any advice would be appreciated.

Omg I'm in the exact same situation you are. My instructor is a great teacher and is at a level that's astounding and somewhere that i hope to be someday but he has been focusing on buisness, has broken promises between intructor and student and is way more focused on competitions then he probably should be.

See what I did/am doing is that I took a break. A 2 year going on 3 year break but I didn't isolate myself completely. Instead this helped me see it in a whole different view. Instead of seeing it as a student who takes everything as it is and assumes that things should be this way, I see it as why is this being done? Why is it like this?

I'm not an instructor or even a black belt but what I am going to do is go back and just last until I do get my black belt in this school system which isn't much longer since I'm pretty close to acheiving it and get out of it and train somewhere else.

My view is that it's not going to get better. Seeing my studio from since i've left until now, it's like i'm in a whole different world. Ciriculum has altered completely, and a lot of things i know don't even exist in the system any more. Our once a week sparring sessions have become once a month warm up for sparring we never do systems. And everything revoloves around the next tournaments and belt testings and stripe testings and it seems to have lost what it all stood for. Being connected to it only saddens me more because i know its great potential and what it has the power to be with an instructor who's so talented and who i have much respect for.

My advice to you is just leave. Train on your own, open your own studio, or get an instructor who's just as good or better. I truly am sorry for how your instructor is doing things now for I know exactly what you're talking about. I hope this helps.

 

[MBuzzy]

Is this a situation where a larger organization is involved? I have thought about that in our organization. If a student does have a problem with an instructor, there is no recourse. They are assigned to a studio, in a region and it is considered a lapse of discipline if any student goes above their instructor's head. There is no "Requesting Mast" process. If there is a problem, the student loses out, because in most organizations, the rank and martial arts structure outweighs the needs of the students....the instructor is always trusted more than the student and the student, so if the student ever has a problem, even if there was a process, no one above the instructor would care.

It is simply a matter of trust in that case that all instructors do the right things.

 

[Blindside]

Back to the present, I've come to realize how much I love the arts, and really want to take myself to new levels. The only problem is, my previous instructor was the only one I've met who could do that. I tried going back for a few classes, but so much has changed, and it's felt more like a "watering-down" than an evolution.

You aren't happy with the current instruction level, and you don't trust your old instructor on some level.

The simplest would be to not take regular group classes and just take private lessons designed at improving your skill level, then start a training group on the side to train the art in the manner you want to do it. If that isn't acceptable, then you need to find a new instructor, even if this person isn't local, or isn't within the art you currently are ranked in.

 

[jks9199]

Perhaps you've reached a point where you need to accept the responsibility for your own training, and not expect someone else to take you to a new level. It may simply be time for YOU to train YOU, to research within your systems and training and find out what's there. It's hokie -- but think of the movie The Last Dragon; the hero is sent by his master on a pointless quest because the lessons he needed to learn no longer came from the master.

 

[geezer]

Now I'll go on the record as saying his martial arts skills are still very much beyond those I've seen, and I don't think his skills as a teacher have diminished. However, questionable acts- such as dues paid up without any compensation, or broken promises between a teacher and student- left a bitter taste with me, and since then, I've sort of chose to disappear.

So I guess what I'm asking is if anyone has ever been in a similar situation, and what would be an advisable course of action?

Similar situation? Hell yeah! From 1980 through the early 90's I was a personal student, then "disciple", of an internationally renowned "grandmaster" and head of our system. At first, the privilege of training directly under this man seemed worth the considerable personal and financial sacrifices. But after a time, his demands and questionable business practices overshadowed the ever diminishing training he shared with me and my kung-fu brothers. Some became, "rebels" and went out on their own. Others switched to other instructors or other systems. Like you, I stopped teaching and just quietly "disappeared"... for about 16 years.

Basically, I "got a life", I finished my graduate degree, got married, got a "real job" (with benefits) and had kids. But finally, one day, while I was organizing the closet I came across a box with my old certificates, clippings and martial arts magazine articles I'd written and/or appeared in. Then I looked in the mirror and saw a fat, middle-aged man. I decided enough was enough. I managed to track down some of my old brothers and got back into training.

Well, to make this boring story a bit shorter, I was very fortunate. I found that the old "grandmaster's" organization had split up. And one of my old kung-fu brothers, a man with a great heart and moral compass, had reached "master" level and was happy to accept me into his organization. I've been back at training about a year and a half now, and I'm truly loving it.

To conclude, my story has had a happy ending (so far). But I really regret having lost so much time, and skill. I have just been re-instated as a sifu in my new organization, but my skills are still way below what they were. And it's tough getting it back when you are in your mid-fifties! So my advice to you? Take a break if you need it. But don't let it drag on for years. There is a lot of really good stuff out there. If you can't see getting back together with your old instructor, then try something new. If his stuff was truly the best of it's kind, as you seem to feel, then try a different kind of martial art. You can chose from long range/kicking, to infighting, to grappling, to weapons. If you studied a "hard" style, experiment with a "softer" one. Or try an internal art... or one from a different culture. But don't let this experience stop you! Good luck.

 

[Ronin74]

MBuzzy, the organization isn't that big, but those of us who reached senior instructor level were given the okay to open our own schools, so as far as overall students under the parent organization, we might be considered a small to medium-sized group.

It's funny that you mentioned the turst for instrutors to do the right thing. When I taught, I made a point to uphold the standards that were taught to me- making proper technique the focus, and making sure we maintained the group's integrity, rather than trying to come off as some "#1 school". Ironically, that's when things in the parent organization began to shift their focus more onto the business.

Blindside, I'm actually trying to do that exact same thing, but the mentality seems to have spread a lot further down the line. Ideally, I would've loved to come back just as a student, but the group classes have sort diminished into adults acting like kids. As for private lessons, it's been more of like meeting wit ha salesman, than an instructor. At the current moment, I'm working out with a friend who was an instuctor in this same style (but under a different master), and our skill levels are about equal. I have often considered looking for a new school to train with, but the economy being what it is, I can't afford the month-to-month dues, and the "year-up-front" deals are a little out of my league. Plus, the quality of some of these places are a little less to my liking. It's not so much the condition of the gym or studio, but the conduct of the instructors that deter me.

jks9199, I have actually wondered if that was my best course of action. An old friend of mine from the Marines once told me that a martial arts master is charged with imparting the art to the student, but it's the student elevating themselves where the mastery comes in. If that's the case, then perhaps it is time for me to train on my own. I'd have to admit, though, that it is intimidating on some level.

 

[Ronin74]

Geezer, that really hit home. My situation is almost exactly as you described it. As far as his skills in the art go, he was the best in the game. Truthfully, the only people I've even heard of who might have better skills in this art might be the late grandmaster (the style's founder) or the grandmaster's instructor.

I've often considered taking up Muay Boran, but I've had no luck in that search. I did learn the basics of Muay Thai, and have been trying to integrate that training into what my friend and I do. I've also looked into karate, but old injuries make some of the basic techniques a risk.

 

[Ronin74]

By the way, I wanted to make sure I thanked everyone for their constructive advice. I was initially reluctant to join the forum since other martial arts forums (such as the old K-1 forum) were so rampant with braggarts and "internet tough guys".

I'd still like to receive input on this matter, but I also wanted to say Thanks.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So I guess what I'm asking is if anyone has ever been in a similar situation, and what would be an advisable course of action? Should I continue to practice on my own, or hope things have changed for the better? Any advice would be appreciated.

Yup

My first Sifu in the beginning taught only what he learned in China, made no claims of mastery little alone calling himself a Grandmaster. He was a stickler for form and when he taught application he made sure it was correct, he allowed a lot of sparing and his prices were very low for 6 days a week. As time wore on he decided the oh-mighty dollar was much more important. I left and tried to go back a few times and each time it was worse. Now he calls himself a Grandmaster teaches and claims mastery of more CMA styles and Qigong styles than are physically possible, most which he taught himself by video. He now charges big bucks for 3 days a week and has contracts and refuses to refund money to students no matter what happens in their lives and has been told by the Chen family to stop claiming he learned Chen Taiji form them since he most certainly did not. And this is the short version of the story.

I was lucky, I found my Taiji Sifu before I left the first time and I was training with my Wing Chun Sifu then as well. fast forward several years I found a Sanda Sifu entirely by accident.

Hank in there and train what you know and look around and you may find someplace else or, as with the case of my Sanda Sifu, it may find you.

Good luck and don't stop training because if you do love the art you will regret it later, been there done that bought the coffee cup and the tee-shirt on that one too.

 

[Phoenix44]

I've come to realize how much I love the arts, and really want to take myself to new levels. The only problem is, my previous instructor was the only one I've met who could do that.

I'm not sure where you're located, or whether there are many other martial arts schools in your vicinity, but I'd say it's time to move on. Having recently left a dojo where I'd been training for more than a decade, I was pleasantly surprised to find that there really are other instructors and other schools where you can achieve new levels. As I found, you have to step out of your emotional comfort zone, make a clean break, and keep an open mind.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I'm not sure where you're located, or whether there are many other martial arts schools in your vicinity, but I'd say it's time to move on. Having recently left a dojo where I'd been training for more than a decade, I was pleasantly surprised to find that there really are other instructors and other schools where you can achieve new levels. As I found, you have to step out of your emotional comfort zone, make a clean break, and keep an open mind.

Great point.

There are always different instructors that can help out, but it is getting out of our emotional comfort zone and shedding our emotional baggage that is the hard part.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hi there. Other than my Meet & Greet intro, this would be my first real post. I'm hoping I could get some advice from possibly other instructors, or people who've been in similar situations.

I've pretty much kept a low profile in my local martial arts community for the last 5 or so years. Prior to that, I was an instructor, and received my training from a master who helped me taught me the skills of the art I taught, and helped take them to levels I never even thought I'd reach with other instructors. At one point, we were traveling and doing demonstrations for everything from local cultural events, to big martial arts-themed events. That all stopped when it started seeming like my master was focusing more on the business and notoriety, than on training..

Did the instructor have a school, rent, bills to pay, responsibily to other students to keep the school doors open? Or was he more of a private teacher and it was you and him promoting his art for the betterment of yourselves and the community?

Now I'll go on the record as saying his martial arts skills are still very much beyond those I've seen, and I don't think his skills as a teacher have diminished. However, questionable acts- such as dues paid up without any compensation, or broken promises between a teacher and student- left a bitter taste with me, and since then, I've sort of chose to disappear.

Back to the present, I've come to realize how much I love the arts, and really want to take myself to new levels. The only problem is, my previous instructor was the only one I've met who could do that. I tried going back for a few classes, but so much has changed, and it's felt more like a "watering-down" than an evolution. Other places I've trained ended up being more geared towards competitions (not that I'm against competition for the sake of improvement), and less about the art and its underlying philosophies..

It sounds like to me that he has redone his curriculmn to try and teach it in an easier format to help him run his business better. This does not mean it's a "watering down" per say just different than what you are use to. You mention in another post the following.

MBuzzy, the organization isn't that big, but those of us who reached senior instructor level were given the okay to open our own schools, so as far as overall students under the parent organization, we might be considered a small to medium-sized group.

It's funny that you mentioned the turst for instrutors to do the right thing. When I taught, I made a point to uphold the standards that were taught to me- making proper technique the focus, and making sure we maintained the group's integrity, rather than trying to come off as some "#1 school". Ironically, that's when things in the parent organization began to shift their focus more onto the business.

Did the parent organization drive the changes, or was it your instructor?

So I guess what I'm asking is if anyone has ever been in a similar situation, and what would be an advisable course of action? Should I continue to practice on my own, or hope things have changed for the better? Any advice would be appreciated.

From my prespective it sounds like the instructor and/or the parent organization made some changes that as a long time student you don't care for. But being out of the system and out from under your instructor's guidence for several years you seemed to have missed these changes. Going back for a few classes or a brief time has let you see some of the changes but maybe not the reasons for the changes. And if your relationship with your instructor wasn't as close as it was before, I would imagine that you aren't in the comfortable position to inquire about the need for the changes. So it is easy to have the view point that thngs have changed for the negative, since they are not like you remember it when you were much closer to your instructor and directly under him for instruction.

I have been in a similar situation in that I too came out from under my instructors teaching, and when I went back things have changed. My instructors skill level is still (and was at the time I trained with him) awesome and if I went back under his guidence I would improve my skill level under him. Although in my absence he went from teaching a American TKD type system to a more Japanese karate based system with different katas, drills, rank levels, etc. etc. I mean this would be a huge change. On top of this about 15 years ago I devoted my outside training time to study the filipino martial arts earning instructor rank in two systems so my heart is really there and not in the American TKD that I was originally taught. The fact is that now I have a wider view point and different skills than when I was taught by my karate/TKD instructor, I have changed and he has changed. I treasure the time I spent in his dojo but I would have a hard time changing back now because my art, body movement, my understanding and view points etc. etc. has changed.

Now some instructors under him (my seniors in his dojo) have stayed and continue to workout and spar 3-4 nights a week and they are awesome, way beyond me. But my interest gravitated more towards self defense, weapons, locking etc. etc. and beyond sparing, so that is my primary goal in training and teaching now. I'm comfortable in that, I accept that, they will always be better than I at sparring. And I have a completely different knowledge base on other aspects of the martial arts that they will never experience as well.

My point is that I wouldn't just look for a high skill level like your instructor's unless that is only what you are looking for, someone for you to idolize again. Instead look for someone who can stimulate your learning again both mentally and physically and help you to come into your own and make your own path. (I'm not talking about making a new art form) But rather making your art your own, not being a copy cat for your instructor.

It also sounds as if you have some bitter feelings towards your instructor, you said "However, questionable acts- such as dues paid up without any compensation, or broken promises between a teacher and student- left a bitter taste with me..." that is something you need to work out with him. I would offer up this last bit of advice.

Don't confuse business (bad or good) practices with him as a person. I know that he as a person is ultimately responsible for his business practices. What I mean is don't confuse your not liking or understanding why changes have occured and then personalize them and place them on him. If he got sound business advice from professionals to change the way he teaches, or if the parent organization dictated it, and he changes to better run a business and provide for him and his family, and ultimately his newer students, this doesn't mean it is inherently bad or evil with the intention of taking advantage of the newer students by "watering down" the system you learned.

I'm in no way saying he did or he didn't, I don't know your whole situation and I'm only offering general advice as a person who can relate to what you have expressed.

Mark

 

[Ronin74]

Boar Man, you raised some very important points, and it's only fair to consider those details, since I'm not trying to paint anyone in a negative picture, despite any emotional baggage.

As far as a physical school, we had none. We moved from place to place, renting out spaces at dojos or studios, or just training at a nearby park. Essentially, there wasn't a consistant overhead. The focus was to promote the art, and give something to the community, much in the sae way it was taught to him. In re-reading this thread, I might actually guess that perhaps burnout might've lent to the shift in focus.

The curriculum's changes did make it better for the business. However, the standard seemed to diminish. When we trained, there was a certain seriousness that went with the training. It's not to say there weren't any smiles or light-hearted discussions, but it was always evident that we were there to train first and foremost. In my last visits, there was actually quite a bit of goofing around, and less focus on working out. Some students were consistantly late to each class.

The parent organization is run by my instructor, so any decisions made for the group were by him.

There were quite a few changes, and I won't deny that it doesn't quite fit me now the way it did back then. However, I think that might fall into a case of "different times/different generation". A very humbling point you made was the idolizing of my teacher. I can't deny that he set the standard for me with regards to his skills and abilities. Part of me looking up to him helped me to get this far. However, times and people do change, and it's very possible that the instructor I looked up to is a different person, and the person I was then has grown into the person I am now. For all I know, it may actually be a case of me letting go of something that's no longer around, and that maybe it is time for me to carve out my own path.

As for the questionable acts, that's another story in itself. Let's just say that it's the equivalent of me selling you something, you paying up front, and me taking off with the money without any explanation, AND still requiring you to pay your dues for training.

I have to say again though Mark, you made a very solid point. Times have changed- and with them, people and their respective schools. It doesn't make him a bad person, or even a bad instructor. It's just that those times are past, and perhaps my time with the group has come to a close for now.

 

[Ronin74]

My point is that I wouldn't just look for a high skill level like your instructor's unless that is only what you are looking for, someone for you to idolize again. Instead look for someone who can stimulate your learning again both mentally and physically and help you to come into your own and make your own path. (I'm not talking about making a new art form) But rather making your art your own, not being a copy cat for your instructor.

It's funny that you should mention this because in my time away from the group, the physical training I got from other arts didn't actually stimulate any learning from me. Now I'm not saying that I'm some kind of ace, or the instructors weren't qualified (they were very good actually, and came by reference), but it wasn't something I hadn't picked up from past experiences. There was that initial excitement that came from doing something outside of my previous art, but the learning phase was usually short due to being able to quickly adjust.

Conversely, during my time away, I took up other activites to either fill my time or improve my conditioning, and I have to say they triggered my learning in ways I hadn't expected. For the most part, I know we're all aware in some way how important breathing is in our respective arts. However, I took a yoga class at a local community college, and the instructor expounded so much detail on something as simple as breathing, that I found myself repeating my most basic martial arts techniques, just so I could figure out the proper breath to take.

Now don't laugh, but at the same time, a friend convinced me to take a ballroom dance class with her, and it made me re-think everything I've done in regards to proper stances. The instructor- who made sure to point out (in a light-hearted manner) my heavy-footedness to the class- really broke it down for me and even tried to make analogies to martial arts about about maintaining smooth fluidity while still having a strong stance.

It's funny where you can pick up these kinds of details.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have seen it so many times and I can't stand it. So many great instructors that money ultimately takes over. True money needs to be there as people need to be able to pay their bills and make some money to but there is a fine line in my opinion between fair and not.

 

[Mark Lynn]

It's funny that you should mention this because in my time away from the group, the physical training I got from other arts didn't actually stimulate any learning from me. Now I'm not saying that I'm some kind of ace, or the instructors weren't qualified (they were very good actually, and came by reference), but it wasn't something I hadn't picked up from past experiences. There was that initial excitement that came from doing something outside of my previous art, but the learning phase was usually short due to being able to quickly adjust.

Conversely, during my time away, I took up other activites to either fill my time or improve my conditioning, and I have to say they triggered my learning in ways I hadn't expected. For the most part, I know we're all aware in some way how important breathing is in our respective arts. However, I took a yoga class at a local community college, and the instructor expounded so much detail on something as simple as breathing, that I found myself repeating my most basic martial arts techniques, just so I could figure out the proper breath to take.

Now don't laugh, but at the same time, a friend convinced me to take a ballroom dance class with her, and it made me re-think everything I've done in regards to proper stances. The instructor- who made sure to point out (in a light-hearted manner) my heavy-footedness to the class- really broke it down for me and even tried to make analogies to martial arts about about maintaining smooth fluidity while still having a strong stance.

It's funny where you can pick up these kinds of details.

Great Post

And this is what I was meaning about making your art your own, and having your own experiences apart from the guidance of your instructor.

In your first paragraph you stated about being able to quickly adjust to new teachings and techniques. This just shows how well your teacher has taught you and your maturity and skill in the MAs. Not that the other instructor or MA system is bad or not as good as your primary art.

My karate instructor taught us basic kobudo, however when I trained in the FMAs their way of applying knowledge or techniques through flow type drills and relating them to combative type drills etc. etc. changed the way I look at weapons and their use. For years I didn't want to study kobudo (formally) because I figured it was a waste of time after adapting to the FMAs, I can handle different weapons and I didn't just want to learn several new katas. However now that I'm teaching American TKD again and have started to get (back) into exploring the applications of the techniques found in those katas, I find myself looking forward to start offically studying kobudo again with that emphasis in mind.

Will it be as exciting for me as the new student who knows nothing about weapons? No and I don't expect that it should be. What I'm digging for are the gold nuggets. These are things to give me a even wider perspective that I can take from kobudo and apply to the FMA or to karate/TKD, or from the FMA to help my kobudo. Ultimately I'm looking for personal growth and in time ways to help my students to grow. And to find that kind of gold you have to shovel a lot of dirt.

Mark

 

[MBuzzy]

I'm always saying that in order to survive, MA instructors need to remember that it IS a business and not get too bogged down in the traditions and structure.

Finding that balance is very hard.

 

[terryl965]

I'm always saying that in order to survive, MA instructors need to remember that it IS a business and not get too bogged down in the traditions and structure.

Finding that balance is very hard.

I can completely agree, iy is hard to find a good balance. But to survive you must.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I'm always saying that in order to survive, MA instructors need to remember that it IS a business and not get too bogged down in the traditions and structure.

Finding that balance is very hard.

And this can be the source of many problems for instructors and students alike.

As instructors shift into teaching full time or trying to make a business out of teaching, they (should) become better educated about running a business, business practices ec. etc. Usually they make changes to things in order to survive in a business enviroment. To a long time student that is use to the older way of doing things it can appear if the head instructor is selling out or just our to make a buck which can create conflict in the student's relationship with the instructor because now the instructor is labeled a sell out where before he was a master.

What right do we as students have to try and hold back our instructors from succeeding in business if that is what they want to do? My instructor taught privately out of his garage (dojo) he didn't charge for lessons. But he also worked a job he disliked to put food on the table and provide for his family. Now he teaches out of a health club making more money than he ever made before but he is not at his dojo as much now. He is still demanding of his new students (at the health club) and they are now taught differently than I was, in fact they are probably better taught than I was. Where I had freedom to seek out a wider view of the MAs and was encouraged to do so, his newer students don't have the same freedom as I had, in fact if I were to help teach for him I have to do it his way, in his time, his method his drills etc. etc.. But he is now running a business and he has to be very careful about how he runs the business. Does this mean he is a sell out, heck no! But it is different relationship (a business one) for me now.

But running a business is no excuse for a instructor to cheat, manipulate, or shaft his students. Which can be common in the MAs because we idolize our masters, set them up on pedestals, do what they want when they want it (without asking why), and cater to their whims and needs. It is only when we realize that they too started as beginners, that they too generally put on their pants one leg at a time like we do, that they are not superhuman (even though they can seem to have superhuman skills), that they generally have the same sinful, base, common desires as everyone else has that we can start to see that they are human and make mistakes. It's when we realize that not only can they make mistakes but they can also cheat, steal, swindle, shaft and mistreat their students, because this type actions are not business related but this goes to the heart of the instructor. It is then that we need to understand we have a choice to stay or go and that we are free to leave.

FWIW my instructor and I are on great terms, we still are like family. But over the years and traveling around and getting to meet many great instructors I've seen and heard about the abuse so to speak of instructors under great masters.

Mark