When is Tang Soo Do not Tang Soo Do?

[Makalakumu]

I've been wondering lately at the direction that this art has been going. The way I teach now is very different then how TSD was taught in my lineage. It's even different from how my teacher teaches it. Looking around my schools forum, one can see threads dedicated to teaching methods that you probably won't see in many (or any) TSD dojangs out there.

I've always thought that the name Tang Soo Do fits us because it really implies a study of a more general type of karate that draws in from many traditions. In fact, the term Tang Soo really is vague in that the amount of traditions that could be drawn from that pile is enormous.

Thursdays class got me thinking though. One of my new students was an old student of a WTSD school that used to operate in this area. She hasn't trained in TSD for over 10 years, but she still remember what she learned up to about green belt. I noticed her punching in the way that they taught and I thought to myself...

"Self, you checked out their dojang before they closed their doors. You know how they trained because it wasn't so different from when you went to your teacher's teacher. They didn't have the barest inkling of what you understood back when you hardly understood what you know now."

So when does TSD cease to become TSD? When does what we know travel far enough away from what people normally associate with TSD that it becomes intellectually dishonest to call it TSD? Or is it perfectly fine to keep it vague and continue throwing mud in the kiddie pool?

 

[terryl965]

I guess this would depend on what everyone take is on TSD in the first place. I have seen some TSD schools look like TKD and vise/versa. I beleive we all have our views but it is just that our views.

 

[exile]

I guess this would depend on what everyone take is on TSD in the first place. I have seen some TSD schools look like TKD and vise/versa. I beleive we all have our views but it is just that our views.

I agree with Terry here, UpN; names like Tang Soo Do are inherently fuzzy, and every person is going to draw the line in a slightly different place. If you look at a Kyokushin practitioner and a Wado Ryu practitioner, you might very well come to the conclusion that if one of them is practicing karate, the other can't possibly be; and yet here they are, both recognized as doing karate—and the people who recognize that will also insist that there's a big difference between what they're doing in common, as vs. what an Arnis person or a White Crane practitioner is doing. So it's not as though the people who agree that both of the MAists are doing karate can't distinguish amongst MAs; they can, but they see the common elements in the foreground, and the stylistic differences only as relatively minor parts of the background.

I think, given the historical background, that descriptions like Taekwondo and Tang Soo Do are especially elastic. We've talked about this before: my TKD is probably a lot closer to your TSD than it is to an `Olympic sparring' McDojang's TKD where they wear dobok bottoms with pockets so you can keep your hands in your pocket while you `spar'. Does that mean that what I do isn't TKD? Or, does it mean that what they do isn't TKD? Not, `what would most people say in answer to that question?', but `what would the "true" answer be?' And at that point, it seems to me pretty clear that the question can't be given an answer independent of the preconceptions of the person providing the answer. And just the same way, I'm not sure your question—is this TSD or isn't it?—can actually be given a principled answer, one that's independent of the perspective of the answerer.

On a different note: good work on getting that forum description changed to the much more historically accurate one that you now have there... I was wondering when that was gonna happen!

 

[MBuzzy]

I think that in any style, you will get schools that differ from the others. In fact, that is a small part of why TSD and SBD split, to have the ability to teach as they pleased. There will always be McDojangs...

But also, if it isn't TSD, what would you call it? It shares our techniques (basically), our forms, etc...

 

[kyosa]

Good question. I teach most of what i was taught by my instructor-i did remove a couple techniques but added so very much more! grand master Hwang Kee's book states something to the effect that all martial arts techniques fall under TSD and ive really tried to incorporate that. I now teach some elements of law enforcement techniques, wrestling, Arnis de Mano, Muey Thai, Ryu Kyu Kempo, Judo, western boxing and Kali. I also have instructors from other styles that are training with me and I have them teach 15 minutes per class on subjects pertaining to their arts. I think you need to keep the traditions of what you were taught minus some changes you choose to make as an instructor. My students are expected to learn all the Tang Soo Do requirements along with all the additional requirements which I have added. That is my take on the question.

 

[Makalakumu]

That approach is very enlightening. I learned a lot from it as your student because it really helped me tie together all of the different martial arts that people around me were practicing.

As I think back though, I wonder at the efficacy of this approach. As a teacher, I am very interested in curriculum and designing a curriculum so that everything in it flows from aspect to another. So that all aspects are philosphically connect to one another and they help reinforce your objectives as a teacher.

I've often found that the "salad bowl' approach misses alot of the deeper aspects that were extant in the original traditions. One of the biggest frustrations of mine has been taking all of this knowledge that I've gained and putting it into some sort pretext that I can give to students.

This is why you find so many threads dedicated to analysing the bread and butter aspects of TSD that most take for granted. In many ways, I think I've innovated a couple of things, but all of that is probably just reinventing the wheel.

I guess all of this comes down to what you think the kwan founders knew or intended. My feeling is that they probably had a very surficial understanding of Japanese Karate and move from there...thus many misconceptions were passed on.