When is Tang Soo Do no longer Tang Soo Do?

TSDTexan

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What KJN Hwang Kee passed down to us in TSD was the shell of the system originally taught in Okinawa...

This is an old conversation that has often times upset many who have ONLY trained in TSD and never cross trained in any systems that came before TSD.

Hwang Kee trained under Lee Won Cook after Master Lee returned from Japan. While in Japan, Master Lee, along with General Choi Hong Hi and other Korean practitioners trained in Shotokan under Funakoshi, Gichen. They earned their Nidan (2nd degree black belt) ranking prior to returning to Korea.

Master Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan. He was teaching Shotokan as he had learned it from Funakoshi, but called it Chung Do Kwan.

Funakoshi was a student to Anko Itosu, one of Okinawa's most prominent instructors, and the creator of Pinan/Pyong Ahn series, as well as Bassai-Sho and Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan.

Funakoshi had never learned the Bunkai for the kata. He was not interested in the Bunkai. His intention was to teach a system that would promote good health and character. He was firmly against fighting.

Funakoshi's senior student was Shiguro Egami. Egami authored the book "Karate-Do Beyond Technique". In this book Egami wrote; the master (referring to Funakoshi) never taught us Bunkai, as he had himself, not learned it from Itosu prior to coming to Japan.

This is an important piece of the puzzle that you are trying to put together. If you follow the lineage of our system, and when I say; "our susyem", I am referring to all of the instructors in the line dating back to those who created the forms/Hyung/Kata that were incorporated by Hwang Kee in his original curriculum, the Bunkai was cut off with Funakoshi. Lee could not teach it to Hwang Kee because he couldn't learn it from Funakoshi. Hwang Kee couldn't teach it to usm as he never learned it from Master Lee.

If you want to learn the Bunkai you must find those who train in the older systems from Okinawa that have passed it down in their lineage. That is what I have been doing for the past 39 years.

Contact me if you are interested in discussing this further...

What KJN Hwang Kee passed down to us in TSD was the shell of the system originally taught in Okinawa...

This is an old conversation that has often times upset many who have ONLY trained in TSD and never cross trained in any systems that came before TSD.

Hwang Kee trained under Lee Won Cook after Master Lee returned from Japan. While in Japan, Master Lee, along with General Choi Hong Hi and other Korean practitioners trained in Shotokan under Funakoshi, Gichen. They earned their Nidan (2nd degree black belt) ranking prior to returning to Korea.

Master Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan. He was teaching Shotokan as he had learned it from Funakoshi, but called it Chung Do Kwan.

Funakoshi was a student to Anko Itosu, one of Okinawa's most prominent instructors, and the creator of Pinan/Pyong Ahn series, as well as Bassai-Sho and Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan.

Funakoshi had never learned the Bunkai for the kata. He was not interested in the Bunkai. His intention was to teach a system that would promote good health and character. He was firmly against fighting.

Funakoshi's senior student was Shiguro Egami. Egami authored the book "Karate-Do Beyond Technique". In this book Egami wrote; the master (referring to Funakoshi) never taught us Bunkai, as he had himself, not learned it from Itosu prior to coming to Japan.

This is an important piece of the puzzle that you are trying to put together. If you follow the lineage of our system, and when I say; "our susyem", I am referring to all of the instructors in the line dating back to those who created the forms/Hyung/Kata that were incorporated by Hwang Kee in his original curriculum, the Bunkai was cut off with Funakoshi. Lee could not teach it to Hwang Kee because he couldn't learn it from Funakoshi. Hwang Kee couldn't teach it to usm as he never learned it from Master Lee.

If you want to learn the Bunkai you must find those who train in the older systems from Okinawa that have passed it down in their lineage. That is what I have been doing for the past 39 years.

Contact me if you are interested in discussing this further...


The only problem with this GM Hwang Keep repudiated the claim that He was a student of GM Lee, on several occasions. As you well know dropping in for a class or three really doesn't make you a student.

That's he attended a few classes, is about the only thing the CDK has on GM Kee.

Now, the reckoning within in my school's lineage, we recount our Okinawan Tang Soo lineage From Hwang Kee, through Yamaguchi, Kenwa Mabuni, Ank Itosu, Matsumura Soko,Tode Sakugawa,Takahara Peichin, and so on, back into the Shaolin mists.

Now, the evidence is circumstantial, but we maintain there is a high probability that Lee met and trained in Karate under/with Yamaguchi Given while both were in Manchuria at the same time.


The clenched fist design known as the Karate school insignia of the Goju style as is printed here on the top was designed by the late Gogen Yamaguchi in 1932, founder of Goju-Kai Karate-Do... Image3.gif

Notice anything similar to a certain MDK trademarked logo?

Next we have Mabuni mentioned by name in Hwang's book...

Then we have the fact that Hwang Kee said that Yamaguchi was a personal friend.

An eye opening statement considering Koreans general hostility towards the Japanese.

Then the Mixed Hard/Soft styles of TSDMDK and GoJu... Not exactly on a technique by technique basis, but some shared thinking on a number of things regarding Hard/Soft, and philosophical.

In the end, we have to set a standard of evidentiary burden: "beyond all reasonable doubt" or "preponderance of evidence" by which we call it.

This is what I teach my students.
And my Master said (personal aside, how many of us have ever started a sentence with that clause) so...ahem, he said:
Quote"

I'm comfortable with the position that there is a high probability that the ORIGIN of the Pyong Ahn series of forms that we practice in our Tang Soo Do were those of Gogin Yamaguchi.

Floyd wasn't interested in these sorts of things, however, He spoke well of Robert Shipley... whom, in this case seems to be a critical link...

A funny coincidence perhaps, the story of Yamaguchi being fed to a tiger by the soviets and killing it reminds me of the sign that most TKD school had back in the 70's of a tiger rampant being flying sidekicked by a dobok clad guy.


Admitting my bias up front, I'm pretty convinced that Tang Soo Do - Moo Duk Kwan is the "best" combat martial art. Floyd acquired the art as U.S. Airforce Security Police. He taught it to hundreds, perhaps several 1000 fellow security police. According to Floyd, Hwang Kee was very adamant that Tang Soo Do was a "MILITARY" style... that it was not about sport (winning vs losing) but strictly a matter of life vs death.

Thus it seems logical that a strong martial arts style that descended to Yamaguchi, including a mindset from a samurai tradition would support and encourage this type of attitude in its practitioners.

Floyd however, eschewed such speculations about the past in favor of training hard in the present. In the final analysis, I'm going with Floyd on this one. Does it really matter what dark and ancient mists certain elements of the Tang Soo Do we train in emerged from..? Would such knowledge make a stronger or faster middle punch..?"
End quote:

And there ya go. Take it for what its worth.

This is the reason why when I was a guppie, our school was only allowed to compete in Hyungs. And the same tradition, I uphold as well.
 
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