When Is a Student Your Student?

[dancingalone]

When he enrolls in your school? When he has proven himself to you somehow? I am curious if anyone makes any distinctions between the people he trains.

 

[terryl965]

For me it is simple, from the moment they start training. Even if they leave and go somewhere else I still consider them my student and would let the majority come back to train if they ever decided. Every once in a while I may have to get rid of someone but that is another thread.

 

[dancingalone]

Well, I have a senior student who I am very proud of. He recently opened his own dojo. I also have a kid in my TKD class that I am pretty sure he's there only because his older siblings are also there. He kinda dogs it at times and his commitment isn't there. At the risk of seeming like a jerk, guess who I enjoy teaching more?

Is the latter example MY student? Food for thought and discussion.

 

[clfsean]

For me... when they give me back what I give them in terms of effort, training, commitment, energy, etc... they're my student. Of course this is barring the ever present life sticking its nose in.

When they just show up & take up space... they're either a bill payer or a place holder.

I can't force or make somebody (especially kids) want to train or learn. Doesn't matter what marketing or teaching technique you use. If they don't, they don't. Generally I'll say something to the parent at that point (99% of the time, it's kids) to the effect of their money & time is being wasted & I don't like wasting either, especially in today's economic times. I'd rather have 3 students than a roomful of place holders.

 

[Manny]

When a person comes to me to learn the he/she becomes MY student, no matter is TKD or shooting (my other passion) or what ever.

When my sambonim ofered me to teach men last september, I knew the students were his and I will be just an instructor, however this wasn't that way.

Last tuesday sambonim ask me to tie the belts to my students, I was surprised, he told me Manny c'mon and put on the new belts to your students (2) and it was a fantastic fealing.

My studest told me no matter their are students from the kwanjangnim (our profesor) they are my students too because I am the one who teach them.

I have now two green belts and one yellow belt, last night we did hand techs only (the past class we did kicking only with one step sparring) and at the end of the class I have a little chat with these men.

I told them that our kwanjanim teaches mostly kicks and sport TKD and that's is good, but I teach classic TKD and my classes are self defense/martial art oriented so maybe we won't see alot of aerial kicks but a god deal about comon sense and self defense.

If my students wants a full cardio fancy kicks class they can go with kwanjangnim if they want to learn the true beauty of TKD and it's real aplication they can stay with me or even they can intercalate classes too if they wish. I think they can get a good balance beetwen sport and martial art.

The had techs and their aplication we saw yestarday was reverse fist (dung chumok), hammer fist (me chumok), swrod hand (han sonnal mok) and heel/palm strike (batang son) all of these aimed to specific areas, we use the heavy bag first and then we saw the aplication upon human targets (nose,temple,troat,neck,solar plexus,collar bone) the class was interesting to them.

Sorry to extend in my answer but I wanted to tell you what I am doing with my students.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

I look at it the other way: When are you their teacher?

A: When you've changed them from what they were.

Hopefully that change is positive and meaningful to them. Sometimes it happens quickly and sometimes it's gradual, but they're yours when you've made a difference--changed them.

 

[harlan]

When I'm willing to take responsibility for their mistakes.

 

[puunui]

I look at it the other way: When are you their teacher? A: When you've changed them from what they were.

What about on a message board like this? If someone writes a post that changes another person's thinking or perspective on something, does the person who wrote the post become the teacher of the one who was changed?

 

[andyjeffries]

When he enrolls in your school? When he has proven himself to you somehow? I am curious if anyone makes any distinctions between the people he trains.

I would probably consider someone "my student" if I am their main instructor. I would refer to someone as "my student" though (slightly different referring to them as opposed to considering them) if I've had a substantive impact on their development (when discussing them with other people).

My grandmaster always said that the teacher/student relationship is only for the first person to teach them, other than that it's senior/junior...but I don't subscribe to that as much.

 

[harlan]

I tend to see it that way. 'Many teachers, only one sensei.'

My grandmaster always said that the teacher/student relationship is only for the first person to teach them, other than that it's senior/junior...but I don't subscribe to that as much.

 

[andyjeffries]

What about on a message board like this? If someone writes a post that changes another person's thinking or perspective on something, does the person who wrote the post become the teacher of the one who was changed?

I would say they don't become "the teacher", because my definition would include the key term substantive (impact on development), but that doesn't detract from the fact that they learnt something and that's great in itself...

 

[K-man]

Maybe the position could be reversed. You are the student's teacher when the student recognises you as such.

Morio Higaonna would be an example of this. Despite training under Ei'ichi Miyazato, Chojun Miyagi Sensei's appointed successor, and being graded to 6th Dan by him, Higaonna acknowledges An'ichi Miyagi as his teacher, not Miyazato.

But I do like, "When you've changed them from what they were." :asian:

 

[jthomas1600]

Maybe a student becomes "your student" when you become their teacher. In other words, when they've bought into your system and have made a commitment that goes beyond just coming and training twice a week or just getting a black belt or what ever they initially came to your school for.

 

[K-man]

Maybe a student becomes "your student" when you become their teacher. In other words, when they've bought into your system and have made a commitment that goes beyond just coming and training twice a week or just getting a black belt or what ever they initially came to your school for.

But, suppose I study under Sensei "X" for 6 years then transfer for whatever reason to Sensei "Y" for another 6 years. I have bought into both systems and both senseis are, at different times, my teacher. In this scenario, my first teacher took me to BB and beyond, my second teacher hopefully advanced my understanding and my knowledge. Now I take my leave and open my own school. When someone asks, "Who was your teacher?", what is the answer? Do I say, "I was a student of "Y", because he honed my skills, or was I the student of "X" because he set me firmly on my way? :asian:

 

[jthomas1600]

k man, I think maybe you've taken the topic beyond the OPs question. Since I'm no where near a point where I can relate to the scenario you laid out I can only hazard a guess as to how that would be handled. Did you maintain a relationship with your first teacher? If so and you are still seeking advice and council from him and his teachings will have a lot of influence over how your school is run and what you teach than I think you identify with him as your teacher. If you've moved on and are opening a school that is modeled at least in part after the school you've most recently been attending I would say that is who you would identify with as your teacher.

 

[puunui]

I would say they don't become "the teacher", because my definition would include the key term substantive (impact on development), but that doesn't detract from the fact that they learnt something and that's great in itself...

What if there was a substantive impact on the development of the person, which in many cases has happened. Would the poster be a "teacher" at that point?

 

[K-man]

k man, I think maybe you've taken the topic beyond the OPs question. Since I'm no where near a point where I can relate to the scenario you laid out I can only hazard a guess as to how that would be handled. Did you maintain a relationship with your first teacher? If so and you are still seeking advice and council from him and his teachings will have a lot of influence over how your school is run and what you teach than I think you identify with him as your teacher. If you've moved on and are opening a school that is modeled at least in part after the school you've most recently been attending I would say that is who you would identify with as your teacher.

My history is too convoluted to identify with one particular teacher. The one I respected most was a young Shodan that I began with as a whitebelt. Unfortunately he passed away recently, but we didn't keep close contact over the years. With all the subsequent karate politics and my own journey uncovering so much BS that we were taught in the past, and the actions of the people I trained under, over the years, I find it exceedingly difficult to say who has been the greatest influence on my MA. My Aikido sensei has to be way up there, but Aikido is not my major focus. The Senseis at the Jundokan have heavilly influenced my practice, but I didn't train with them long enough to claim them as my teachers. Probably occassionally training with my highly ranked friends from another style has helped me formulate my thoughts and transition from Japanese to Okinawan karate.

That's why I used an hypothetical. My situation doesn't compute. Perhaps I am simply a Ronin. :asian:

 

[Master Dan]

For me it is simple, from the moment they start training. Even if they leave and go somewhere else I still consider them my student and would let the majority come back to train if they ever decided. Every once in a while I may have to get rid of someone but that is another thread.

Good points above. Given the area I teach in in many cases there is no law except to fly in at a late date after the violence has already been committed. Because of this and the general nature of the children and adults is to have little or no control. It is not unusual to have a teenager which can be large and quite dangerous to atack a child half thier age and size breaking thier neck or arm because of some personal issue.

Because of this for decades I have taken ownership of them. I explain I own thier feet and hands they cannot use them except under certain circumstances. Thier behavior both in and out of the Dojang reflects on me and TKD in general. We will restrict or remove anyone based on thier behavior but always try to work with thier teachers, gaurdians, mental health and others to bring them back. The final note is if they infact use what I have taught them to seriously injure others you may elude law enforcement but look over your shoulder I will come for you. Generaly we eliminate anyone by Green Belt who we feel may become a danger to society in the future.

We also will not advance anyone to Black Belt regardless of how long they have been training if I don't think they can hold their in thier village because the black belt could be a death sentence for them.

I consider all of them my children my grand masters grand children and thier students his great grand children. We study together, eat together, hunt together. TKD here is survival for them and 100% of any who get to brown belt or above go on to higher learning, have jobs and become happy healthy adults.

 

[StudentCarl]

What about on a message board like this? If someone writes a post that changes another person's thinking or perspective on something, does the person who wrote the post become the teacher of the one who was changed?

Yes, that person was your teacher in that moment. It's not wrong to say a person might have many teachers like that if he will empty his cup and be open to them.

However, I suggest that those whom we give the label of 'teacher' are those who teach us on more than one or two occasions and thus are identified as being more knowledgeable and both capable and willing to teach. In common usage there are implied roles and a relationship.
I think the OP was asking when you consider that relationship established. I think it's subjective, but two markers would be 1) having continued contact for the purpose of instruction/practice and, 2) both people enacting consistently the teacher/student roles.