When Footwork in Sword Arts?

Hyoho

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I have this thing, because I get this a lot. When someone asks me "Do you know who I am?"

I say "Are you one of the wiggles?"

It just makes me laugh.

But yeah I will pretty much sass anyone.
Well, I never actually said who I was. I rarely do.

But 27 Dan grades, mostly taken at home in Japan. A few licences in Koryu and around 50 years in budo make me think I might have some idea that I know what I am talking about.

I only unblocked you to respond as I read your comment on a friend's pad. Back to the block so I don't need to read your asinine comments.

It might have been better if you could add some constructive comments for the OP as to the relationship of footwork and sword arts.
 

MI_martialist

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Okay, I'm going to start being a little blunt here... as Brendan said, there's little real hope that you'll actually take any of this on board, but you really should know where we're coming from....



You've missed the point. The point wasn't about anyone in Japan, it was about the way that John Viol presents Japanese martial arts, particularly classical ones... as his representation of them is not historically, culturally, realistically, linguistically, or tactically correct (factually speaking). But there's something you should understand about the Japanese mentality... they don't tend to speak out if someone is doing something incorrect, except in their own teachings. A friend of mine teaches a modern created "Japanese traditional" art... created in the UK in the 60's.... which has a number of very inaccurate and incorrect aspects when compared with actual Japanese arts... he goes to Japan once a year, and trains with a number of very well known and respected teachers in a number of Japanese (and Okinawan) arts... and none of them would say anything against him, as he trains well when he is there. But taking that as acknowledgement that what he is doing is correct would be a mistake.

In other words, it doesn't matter who "supports" John in his training when he visits Japan, if he's not actually teaching what they give him.

You may need to clarify who you're talking about, though... there are quite a number of "Nakamura sensei" in Japan... it's not an overly uncommon surname...



See, that's the thing... the simple fact that the ryu in question is not being named is a huge red flag... there are only a couple of ryu named on the website, two lines of Toyama Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu (but no mention of which line, nor anything that seems to indicate any real licensing in it), and "Yagyu Ryu"... often used as a shortened version of either Yagyu Shingan (by the Araki-do group) or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but here seemingly used as a separate system. Now, within Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, it is used to sometimes refer to the non-Shinkage Ryu elements (Jubei no Jo, shuriken etc)... but, more tellingly, the term "Yagyu Ryu" is a commonly used term in fictional accounts... not an actual, genuine ryu-ha. Hmm....



No, you won't. You think you are, but you are, very simply, not. Not if you're following the ideas of John Viol.



You really don't know anything about Hyoho's training... but his resume is far easier to come across than John's... but, for the record, you are conversing with one of the most well credentialed non-Japanese Koryu practitioners and teachers around. He is Menkyo Kaiden in one Ryu, and is a lineage holder (head of the system) in another. His website (hyoho.com) is one of the most informative around, specifically for his ryu... and for many years, he was the voice for Westerners... and his pedigree is very well established. For example, here he is at an embu for Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu with the 11th Generation soke, Iwami Toshio (Hyoho comes out at the end...ps... have you figured out where his screen name comes from yet?):

As for the case for training, taking the provided evidence of John Viol's website, articles, interviews, and so on, well... that's far less established, and certainly far less credible.

Using the following pages (Seishinkan Original Site Start Page John Viol Dai Shihan Menkyokaiden John Viol Dai Shihan Menkyokaiden http://www.seishinkan.com/visuals/pdf/BattlegroundSogoArticle01.pdf and Anshinkan Dojo), there are huge numbers of issues, questions, and unusually vague statements and claims made... not least of all the following:
- Sogobujutsu is presented as a specific martial art, with specific founders and a specific history. This is completely incorrect, as sogobujutsu is simply a categorisation of martial art, specifically Japanese, for systems that cover a wide array of skills. It's like talking about the founder of Kenjutsu... there were many, as many as there are systems that have that categorisation.
- Mentions of the "Tsukikagemusha" of the "Yagyu-clan" working for the Shogun (as the "acknowledged founders of sogobujutsu")... I hardly know where to start with this... for one thing, there was no such thing as the "Tsukikagemusha"... they're fictional. Deal with it. Second, the Yagyu family became teachers to the Tokugawa shoguns, yeah... but teaching a non-sogobujutsu system (Shinkage Ryu)... and the implied timeline has the Yagyu family existing before the Yagyu family existed, creating a non-existent art, and working for a Shogun regime that wasn't going to be there for a few centuries at least... all with a very fantasy-based name of "Moon Shadow Warriors"... seriously? Dude... if you believe this, you're too far gone to listen to anything else... oh, and for the record, the only references to these Tsukikagemusha are all from John Viol himself... nowhere else. They simply didn't (don't) exist. It's fantasy.
- The whole bizarre take on the menkyo ranking system, again littered with romanticised and incorrect understandings of history... it doesn't really have anything to do with the Dan-i ranking system, as claimed... and it's purpose and application is completely misrepresented.
- The idea that "sogobujutsu, the Yagyu clan, the Tsukikagemusha (and so on) are very difficult to research in English... (or even for) native Japanese" is almost laughably bad in it's attempt to explain why this load of fantasy isn't supported by anything historical, or real. I mean... Japan was (and remains) one of the most beaurocratic societies around... writing down everything... so the idea that a major family, supported by the ruling families and dynasties, creating the primary forms of martial arts used by the serious warrior class... who again were the ruling classes... didn't have anything written down because "these are not for the masses" is just weak, false reasoning. All those aspects would have made these topics far, far easier to find information on, not harder...
- The idea that John Viol is the "highest ranked classical weaponry instructor in North America" is again so easily disprovable that it's almost embarrassing the guys' still trying to pass off such a blatant falsehood. No, he's not. For one thing, there's no such thing... you don't get ranked as a "classical weaponry instructor", you get ranked in a particular system... and that rank is not equivalent to any ranking in any other system. For another, if we're going to be talking about Menkyo ranking, there were other instructors who got equivalent ranking in their systems well before John did... so his claim is just either delusional, or fraudulent.
- All of the claims of his activities being covered in Japanese media have no back up at all. His claims of performing a ritual at the "Yagyu Clan grave" is also just bizarre...
- The talk of being an uchi-deshi three times, then not talking about exactly what that was training in, or with who ("I trained primarily in sogobujutsu, with some of my teachers"... er... kay?) is highly suspicious. For one thing, the whole idea of uchi-deshi programs (live-in) are a highly modern concept, not traditional at all, and are based more in Western (English and French) military boarding schools... and are most frequently found in Aikido and occasionally karate schools... not classical systems at all.

Look, I can go on, and on, and on here... but the simple fact is that nothing on his pages indicates much in the way of authentic training, and certainly don't indicate that, if some authentic training has been undertaken, it has been taken on board... instead, John Viol paints a picture of movie fantasy, preying on the lack of education in those who come to him. That worked okay in the 70's, and even the 80's, but even cursory research these days shows just how off all his ideas, and teachings are.

At the end of the day, though, you are free to believe whatever you want... learn from John, believe what he tells you, think that everyone else is doing it wrong... but the simple fact remains that, as soon as you post anything that is incorrect (which, if you base in on what you learn from him, it will be), you will be corrected. It's not personal, but others don't have the necessary education to see just how misleading your information can be... so, as long as you're fine being told you're wrong all the time, go for it.



Might I suggest you still haven't learnt who you're talking to?


Thank you so much for reinforcing that since you may not have heard of it, it cannot exist. I guess 2 Menkyo Kaiden, PhD, high dan grades in many systems, 4 all Japan Championships, witnesses to these things, videos of him training in Japan with the people he said...none of that matters. In fact, content is king, so these are just the things that provide content.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Thank you so much for reinforcing that since you may not have heard of it, it cannot exist. I guess 2 Menkyo Kaiden, PhD, high dan grades in many systems, 4 all Japan Championships, witnesses to these things, videos of him training in Japan with the people he said...none of that matters. In fact, content is king, so these are just the things that provide content.
Not being an expert in historical Japanese arts, I have no dog in this fight. I'm just curious - 4 all Japan Championships in what exactly?
 

drop bear

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Well, I never actually said who I was. I rarely do.

But 27 Dan grades, mostly taken at home in Japan. A few licences in Koryu and around 50 years in budo make me think I might have some idea that I know what I am talking about.

I only unblocked you to respond as I read your comment on a friend's pad. Back to the block so I don't need to read your asinine comments.

It might have been better if you could add some constructive comments for the OP as to the relationship of footwork and sword arts.

So not one of the wiggles then?

I thought this thread was about fraud busting and which japanese system was the real deal. yeah a thread on footwork would be interesting.
 

Chris Parker

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I have this thing, because I get this a lot. When someone asks me "Do you know who I am?"

I say "Are you one of the wiggles?"

It just makes me laugh.

But yeah I will pretty much sass anyone.

You missed the point. And, again, the idea of enjoying "sassing" pretty much anyone... well... you might want to rethink that as well...

Thank you so much for reinforcing that since you may not have heard of it, it cannot exist. I guess 2 Menkyo Kaiden, PhD, high dan grades in many systems, 4 all Japan Championships, witnesses to these things, videos of him training in Japan with the people he said...none of that matters. In fact, content is king, so these are just the things that provide content.

Okay, let's cover a few things.

I mentioned that the term "Yagyu Ryu" is commonly used to refer to either the non-Yagyu Shinkage Ryu elements taught alongside the Kenjutsu ryu... such as Jubei no Jo, shuriken, kakushibuki, and so on... and that it is also found in a number of fictionalised works. It is also occasionally used as a catch-all reference within the Arakido organisation, who teach the Edo line (also sometimes referred to as the Goto-ha) of Yagyu Shingan Ryu (Taijutsu), and the Ohtsubo line of Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. This is the important one.

Mr Viol apparently earned Menkyo Kaiden in Yagyu Shingan Ryu from the son of Muto Masao (Ishihara Masao) in 1991. That, really quite simple, straightforward piece of information should have been the first offered in defence of Mr Viol. The fact that it wasn't is rather telling. In fact, digging to find out even what that apparent Menkyo Kaiden was in in the first place takes a fair bit of effort and discovery... and, while it explains a couple of aspects of his bio, it does raise a number of pretty serious questions as to a few of his claims.

Mr Viol claims to b the "first and only non-Japanese to be admitted into elite Yagyuryu martial disciplines". Okay, that's rather patently false. For one thing, there are branch dojo of the Sendai line of Yagyu Shingan Ryu in France and Australia, with visits to these countries well and truly pre-dating Mr Viol's ranking. The line he trained in specifically (the Edo line) doesn't have any official dojo outside of Japan, but there are training groups officially in Russia, the Ukraine, and Canada, with one training group in Queensland, and with another in the process of being set up here in Melbourne (with some friends of mine), with the current headmaster of the system visiting annually for seminars teaching both Edo Yagyu Shingan Ryu and Ohtsubo Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. There are also Western students in Japan, such as David Kawazu-Barber, also a senior practitioner of Negishi Ryu Shurikenjutsu.

For the record, I'm fairly familiar with the history and methods of both the Edo line and Sendai (Chikuosha) lines of the Ryu (from the outside)... and, again, from all my queries, research, questioning, reading, talking with practitioners, and so on, there is nothing to support the history as presented by John Viol. There is no mention of anything like these supposed "Tsukikagemusha", the idea of this being the "Yagyu clan" is rather amusing, because the Yagyu Shingan Ryu founder(s) and lineage are not members of the Yagyu family... the original founder (listed in both the Edo and Sendai line) was Ushu Tatewaki, who taught a number of people, including the founder of the Sendai line, Takenaga Hayato, who met and trained with Yagyu Munenori (who granted him the permission to use the Yagyu name, despite not being members of the Yagyu family). The founder of the Edo line, Araki Mataemon, learnt under Takenaga, and continued to study with Yagyu Jubei as well (this line states that it was Jubei who allowed the usage of the Yagyu name for the ryu). But no member of the Yagyu family were involved in the Yagyu Shingan Ryu as practitioners or teachers. So, again, his history is not accurately presented.

This training in Yagyu Shingan Ryu seems to be what John Viol is basing his claims of training in Japan in "Sogobujutsu"... and while, yes, YSR is a sogobujutsu system, John presents the idea of sogobujutsu as a separate, distinct, codified system... it's not. Additionally, the question holds that, if John Viol is ranked in Yagyu Shingan Ryu, why not state it? Why give it an inaccurate description, a convoluted and inaccurate history, and a lot of fantasy? If he's not teaching Yagyu Shingan Ryu, then what does the Menkyo mean?

Then we could look at the claims of representation in Japan with the All Japan Sogobujutsu Federation (Zen Nippon Sogobujutsu Renmei)... which doesn't seem to exist anywhere other than John's website... the claim of being the highest ranked classical weapons instructor in North America (do we bring up Meik Skoss, Shihan of Toda-ha Buko Ryu, part of the governing group for that Ryu, as well as being senior in Shinto Muso Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu [Yagyukai], and more? How about Phil Relnick, Menkyosha of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu under Otake Shihan, Menkyo Kaiden in Shinto Muso Ryu under Nishioka Tsuneo? Toby Threadgill, head of his line of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu? I mean... he's actually the head of his Ryu... is that lower than Mr Viol's rank that he isn't even stating what it's in?), and more....

Look, the issue isn't that John Viol isn't trained. The issue is that he is presenting some incredibly bizarre ideas, fantasy versions of history, inaccurate descriptions, and more. There really wouldn't be any issue if he didn't mislead with his claims, such as detailed above.

Oh, and by the way, videos of John training in Japan are great... but there aren't any around that I can find. In fact, the only video I've found for anything related is for a branch dojo, based on the Toyama material... and, let's just say that it was deeply underwhelming on a number of levels.

Not being an expert in historical Japanese arts, I have no dog in this fight. I'm just curious - 4 all Japan Championships in what exactly?

According to the bio on his website:

"Four time All Japan Invitational full contact bare-knuckle fighting champion - Undefeated
- The only non-Japanese to achieve this.
- Nicknamed Kazan (volcano) by the Japanese press for his explosive volcanic fighting nature.
- Not just an unbeatable fighter, he also won Kata, weaponry, and Enbu divisions."

Personally, I have found nothing searching for any record of this, the tournament listed (can't find a record... but without an actual name other than "All Japan Invitational", it's a bit hard to narrow down, as well as without any date listed), nothing about John Viol in any media I've found, no mention of anyone with the nickname "Kazan", in either English or Japanese searches (and it's a bit odd that his bio stresses his nickname, but omits the actual names of his ranked system, his teacher who awarded him his legitimate ranking, and so on... hmm...), so... uh... yeah....

So not one of the wiggles then?

I thought this thread was about fraud busting and which japanese system was the real deal. yeah a thread on footwork would be interesting.

Okay, then. What can you add in regard to ashi-sabaki in kenjutsu ryu-ha teaching, training, and study?
 

frank raud

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You missed the point. And, again, the idea of enjoying "sassing" pretty much anyone... well... you might want to rethink that as well...



Okay, let's cover a few things.

I mentioned that the term "Yagyu Ryu" is commonly used to refer to either the non-Yagyu Shinkage Ryu elements taught alongside the Kenjutsu ryu... such as Jubei no Jo, shuriken, kakushibuki, and so on... and that it is also found in a number of fictionalised works. It is also occasionally used as a catch-all reference within the Arakido organisation, who teach the Edo line (also sometimes referred to as the Goto-ha) of Yagyu Shingan Ryu (Taijutsu), and the Ohtsubo line of Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. This is the important one.

Mr Viol apparently earned Menkyo Kaiden in Yagyu Shingan Ryu from the son of Muto Masao (Ishihara Masao) in 1991. That, really quite simple, straightforward piece of information should have been the first offered in defence of Mr Viol. The fact that it wasn't is rather telling. In fact, digging to find out even what that apparent Menkyo Kaiden was in in the first place takes a fair bit of effort and discovery... and, while it explains a couple of aspects of his bio, it does raise a number of pretty serious questions as to a few of his claims.

Mr Viol claims to b the "first and only non-Japanese to be admitted into elite Yagyuryu martial disciplines". Okay, that's rather patently false. For one thing, there are branch dojo of the Sendai line of Yagyu Shingan Ryu in France and Australia, with visits to these countries well and truly pre-dating Mr Viol's ranking. The line he trained in specifically (the Edo line) doesn't have any official dojo outside of Japan, but there are training groups officially in Russia, the Ukraine, and Canada, with one training group in Queensland, and with another in the process of being set up here in Melbourne (with some friends of mine), with the current headmaster of the system visiting annually for seminars teaching both Edo Yagyu Shingan Ryu and Ohtsubo Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. There are also Western students in Japan, such as David Kawazu-Barber, also a senior practitioner of Negishi Ryu Shurikenjutsu.

For the record, I'm fairly familiar with the history and methods of both the Edo line and Sendai (Chikuosha) lines of the Ryu (from the outside)... and, again, from all my queries, research, questioning, reading, talking with practitioners, and so on, there is nothing to support the history as presented by John Viol. There is no mention of anything like these supposed "Tsukikagemusha", the idea of this being the "Yagyu clan" is rather amusing, because the Yagyu Shingan Ryu founder(s) and lineage are not members of the Yagyu family... the original founder (listed in both the Edo and Sendai line) was Ushu Tatewaki, who taught a number of people, including the founder of the Sendai line, Takenaga Hayato, who met and trained with Yagyu Munenori (who granted him the permission to use the Yagyu name, despite not being members of the Yagyu family). The founder of the Edo line, Araki Mataemon, learnt under Takenaga, and continued to study with Yagyu Jubei as well (this line states that it was Jubei who allowed the usage of the Yagyu name for the ryu). But no member of the Yagyu family were involved in the Yagyu Shingan Ryu as practitioners or teachers. So, again, his history is not accurately presented.

This training in Yagyu Shingan Ryu seems to be what John Viol is basing his claims of training in Japan in "Sogobujutsu"... and while, yes, YSR is a sogobujutsu system, John presents the idea of sogobujutsu as a separate, distinct, codified system... it's not. Additionally, the question holds that, if John Viol is ranked in Yagyu Shingan Ryu, why not state it? Why give it an inaccurate description, a convoluted and inaccurate history, and a lot of fantasy? If he's not teaching Yagyu Shingan Ryu, then what does the Menkyo mean?

Then we could look at the claims of representation in Japan with the All Japan Sogobujutsu Federation (Zen Nippon Sogobujutsu Renmei)... which doesn't seem to exist anywhere other than John's website... the claim of being the highest ranked classical weapons instructor in North America (do we bring up Meik Skoss, Shihan of Toda-ha Buko Ryu, part of the governing group for that Ryu, as well as being senior in Shinto Muso Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu [Yagyukai], and more? How about Phil Relnick, Menkyosha of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu under Otake Shihan, Menkyo Kaiden in Shinto Muso Ryu under Nishioka Tsuneo? Toby Threadgill, head of his line of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu? I mean... he's actually the head of his Ryu... is that lower than Mr Viol's rank that he isn't even stating what it's in?), and more....

Look, the issue isn't that John Viol isn't trained. The issue is that he is presenting some incredibly bizarre ideas, fantasy versions of history, inaccurate descriptions, and more. There really wouldn't be any issue if he didn't mislead with his claims, such as detailed above.

Oh, and by the way, videos of John training in Japan are great... but there aren't any around that I can find. In fact, the only video I've found for anything related is for a branch dojo, based on the Toyama material... and, let's just say that it was deeply underwhelming on a number of levels.



According to the bio on his website:

"Four time All Japan Invitational full contact bare-knuckle fighting champion - Undefeated
- The only non-Japanese to achieve this.
- Nicknamed Kazan (volcano) by the Japanese press for his explosive volcanic fighting nature.
- Not just an unbeatable fighter, he also won Kata, weaponry, and Enbu divisions."

Personally, I have found nothing searching for any record of this, the tournament listed (can't find a record... but without an actual name
Have you tried looking under "the Kumite?
 

jks9199

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Gentle folk,
I think the thread started with a question about when footwork training begins when training the sword. Perhaps we can move on from credentials and back to the discussion?
 

Hyoho

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Might I just quickly add that most genuine titles are earned from living in Japan and are passed down. None of this stuff is "take away". An embu is a demonstration of one abilities in public. You can't 'win' an embu. That's why it's call "embu" . I guess some people need to learn Japanese before they post or publish such things.

Spent the last few days with an uchideshi who also a member on here and also teaches HEMA. Nothing but.................. footwork in relationship to motivate the hips and a matter of not what you do but "when" you do it.

Off to teach three international seminars this coming July. I already know that to make improvements to other students level we will be covering the same thing yet again. A weapon as an extension of yourself with ki ken tai ichi, kahanshin and ma-ai.

I might add that Japanese footwork can be very different. Watch Japanese people walk and you will know. Also watching kabuki gives one an idea. Westerners have this strange gait. They transfer body weight from one leg to the other. Whereas Asians move like a truck on wheels. One can propel the body forwards and backwards without serious transfer of weight from one leg to the other. As I sometimes say on seminars. You all want to be Musashi but now you have to learn to walk like him.
 

MI_martialist

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Might I just quickly add that most genuine titles are earned from living in Japan and are passed down. None of this stuff is "take away". An embu is a demonstration of one abilities in public. You can't 'win' an embu. That's why it's call "embu" . I guess some people need to learn Japanese before they post or publish such things.

Spent the last few days with an uchideshi who also a member on here and also teaches HEMA. Nothing but.................. footwork in relationship to motivate the hips and a matter of not what you do but "when" you do it.

Off to teach three international seminars this coming July. I already know that to make improvements to other students level we will be covering the same thing yet again. A weapon as an extension of yourself with ki ken tai ichi, kahanshin and ma-ai.

I might add that Japanese footwork can be very different. Watch Japanese people walk and you will know. Also watching kabuki gives one an idea. Westerners have this strange gait. They transfer body weight from one leg to the other. Whereas Asians move like a truck on wheels. One can propel the body forwards and backwards without serious transfer of weight from one leg to the other. As I sometimes say on seminars. You all want to be Musashi but now you have to learn to walk like him.

Good for you! I am happy you are busy!

That is all I will say about any more of this because we will never come to an understanding...
 

drop bear

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Okay, then. What can you add in regard to ashi-sabaki in kenjutsu ryu-ha teaching, training, and study?

You should probably defer to your instructor for those things. Independent thoughts lead to bad habits.
 

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