When did the truth become a bad thing?

[CoryKS]

Ah the West! Is it a truth then that all the West is infected with the malaise spoken about here? I think not so it would probably be more useful to speak about one's own country only rather than others, in the interests of truth of course.

Ah, but then I would have to take issue with painting the entire country with that brush. Perhaps we should push it down to the state level. Unless there are any Georgians who dispute CC's truth, and then we'll have to assume it's a county thang.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Let me preface by saying that I agree with the majority of your post. Didn't want you to think I was disregarding the rest, just wondered what prompted you to phrase it this way. Is there some reason why you think this state is exclusive to, or predominantly found in, "The West"? Is it your belief that non-western cultures are less susceptible to this, and what do you base that upon? Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine when people attribute to the West traits that I would consider universal human failings. I can think of at least one non-Western culture that is so deeply in denial about its stature in this world that it readily responds with murder when its worldview is challenged.

I have no experience or real knowledge of any other cultures in this regard so I don't speak to it. I can't read or speak any Eastern languages so I can't be certain.

I do have to admit, on the surface, after watching Japanese programming that one might interpret their culture to be somewhat superficial, so you may have me there...

It seems to me that most "Western" countries suffer from the "MTV" influence of being superficial moreso than others. I will admit that from my "perspective" the US seems to be the worst by far... especially evidenced by the current Entitlement Generation.

I would be very surprised if someone like Susan Boyle could win 'American Idol'... the UK gets props for that, but you can't deny that the Brits put a lot of importance on "appearances".

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic...

There are truths and there are facts. Truths can be facts, but as often as not are simply one person's opinion. So, if your "truth" isn't a fact, but is instead your opinion, it stands to reason that some people will disagree and believe that it's a bad thing. Others will agree and denounce any disagreement as political correctness.

Taking this a bit further, even where facts are involved, there is rude and there is polite. These are subjective, but you can convey facts without tact. Whether you are factual or not has nothing to do with whether you are a dick or not. You can be both... or neither.

Finally, there is appropriate and inappropriate. In a professional environment, swearing at a coworker is inappropriate. Being professional has nothing to do with political correctness nor with being factual or truthful.

I bet go differ. A message can be very professional, tactful, and diplomatic and one could still be offended regardless of whether it rings true or not.

One could follow all the rules of professional communication taught in Business Communication 200 and someone would still say you were rude if they found the truth of the message distasteful. I've seen happen (especially when I tell folks they need to take comp time in order to avoid being paid over time.) :angel:

 

[Carol]

I bet go differ. A message can be very professional, tactful, and diplomatic and one could still be offended regardless of whether it rings true or not.

One could follow all the rules of professional communication taught in Business Communication 200 and someone would still say you were rude if they found the truth of the message distasteful. I've seen happen (especially when I tell folks they need to take comp time in order to avoid being paid over time.) :angel:

But that again gets in to an issue of professionalism. If the manager has communicated a situation to the best of their ability, then it is the report's responsibility to also bear a standard in professionalism.

If you were announcing bad news like pay cuts, I think its natural to assume that your reports will be upset. However, if you're giving notice for routine payroll issues, then its really on the report to communicate in a professional manner. Doesn't always happen, humans being what they are (silly humans!) and when working with others, sometimes you have to pick your fights. :lol:

 

[celtic_crippler]

But that again gets in to an issue of professionalism. If the manager has communicated a situation to the best of their ability, then it is the report's responsibility to also bear a standard in professionalism.

If you were announcing bad news like pay cuts, I think its natural to assume that your reports will be upset. However, if you're giving notice for routine payroll issues, then its really on the report to communicate in a professional manner. Doesn't always happen, humans being what they are (silly humans!) and when working with others, sometimes you have to pick your fights. :lol:

True.

But that leads us back to the question.

What does it say about a people who expect apologies for honesty; who find the truth offensive?

Arw you saying that being unprofessional is a trait shared by those who find the truth offensive?

 

[Tez3]

So which Brits then? Do we care about superficial appearances, not particularly. Do we care about how people behave, whether they have good manners, do they have hysterics and over react, well yes we do. We like people to be calm, polite and not in your face. We like good manners and politeness and there is a remarkable amount of it still around.
If you mean we like to keep up appearances as in not running around like headless chickens when things go ever so slightly wrong or we don't go shooting our mouths off about things which are personal like religion, our choice of contraception or whether or not we have abortions, you are correct. We keep up appearances when all is going to hell in a hand cart, we try to behave with decorum rather than weeping and wailing everywhere. We will say under the most dreadful conditions 'well it could be worse' because dammit it could be.
No we don't run off to the dentist to have our teeth fixed and whitened so it looks like a graveyard full of shiny tombstones in our mouths everytime we open our mouths. We have our fashions, which are copied in a lot of places, we may complain about our countries (yes countries, we have a few of them) but we also have sheer class. :ultracool

Don't judge us by yourselves, in fact don't judge us at all or any other country for that matter, speak for your own, praise it or damn it up to you but leave the rest of the world out of it. You can't judge a country like Japan, you know, merely from it's television shows.

Cory, I meant making such sweeping statements as the 'west' is meaningless, people should only speak of countries they know and I doubt many Americans have actually been to Georgia (the original one, you know, in Europe).

 

[Steve]

I bet go differ. A message can be very professional, tactful, and diplomatic and one could still be offended regardless of whether it rings true or not.

One could follow all the rules of professional communication taught in Business Communication 200 and someone would still say you were rude if they found the truth of the message distasteful. I've seen happen (especially when I tell folks they need to take comp time in order to avoid being paid over time.) :angel:

This is true, but now you're straying into the area of leadership and personnel management, which is a larger subject that encompasses a little of "truth", courtesy and professionalism.

A couple of things come to mind. First, you can be professional but you can't guarantee that the person with whom you are dealing will also be professional. You can't ultimately control anyone's feelings, although you can do a lot to stack the deck in your favor. What I mean is, as a manager, to be successful you have to manage behavior not intent. There are all the reasons in the world for something to fail or succeed, and the worst rookie mistake a manager will make is to try to manage these reasons. In the same way, ultimately, you can't manage feelings, so in some cases all you can do is set clear expectations and be professional. So, in your case, ultimately, if you're polite, professional and have a healthy working relationship with your employees, it should be enough to set a clear expectation that Comp is to be worked in lieu of OT. In short, worrying overly much about whether someone likes your message is self defeating and really only makes your job harder.

But going along with this, nothing happens in a vacuum. The most successful managers are the ones who take the time to establish relationships and a genuine rapport. If I have a relationship with you, you will tend to give me the benefit of the doubt as your manager. So, when I tell you that there's no OT and you need to work comp, you don't take it personally. Not a guarantee, but it's definitely there.

But all of this in no way makes my previous post less.... ahem... true. Whether or not you risk offending your employee, you should still be professional and expect him or her to be the same. Ultimately, though, you can only directly manage your own behavior. Managing the behavior of others is a much more subtle and complicated thing... and ultimately, you can't force someone to be professional or courteous, although you can encourage them directly or indirectly to work somewhere else.

 

[Steve]

So which Brits then? Do we care about superficial appearances, not particularly. Do we care about how people behave, whether they have good manners, do they have hysterics and over react, well yes we do. We like people to be calm, polite and not in your face. We like good manners and politeness and there is a remarkable amount of it still around.
If you mean we like to keep up appearances as in not running around like headless chickens when things go ever so slightly wrong or we don't go shooting our mouths off about things which are personal like religion, our choice of contraception or whether or not we have abortions, you are correct. We keep up appearances when all is going to hell in a hand cart, we try to behave with decorum rather than weeping and wailing everywhere. We will say under the most dreadful conditions 'well it could be worse' because dammit it could be.
No we don't run off to the dentist to have our teeth fixed and whitened so it looks like a graveyard full of shiny tombstones in our mouths everytime we open our mouths. We have our fashions, which are copied in a lot of places, we may complain about our countries (yes countries, we have a few of them) but we also have sheer class. :ultracool

Don't judge us by yourselves, in fact don't judge us at all or any other country for that matter, speak for your own, praise it or damn it up to you but leave the rest of the world out of it. You can't judge a country like Japan, you know, merely from it's television shows.

Cory, I meant making such sweeping statements as the 'west' is meaningless, people should only speak of countries they know and I doubt many Americans have actually been to Georgia (the original one, you know, in Europe).

I like making sweeping generalizations about Brits. But that's only because I like you guys so much!

 

[celtic_crippler]

So which Brits then? Do we care about superficial appearances, not particularly. Do we care about how people behave, whether they have good manners, do they have hysterics and over react, well yes we do. We like people to be calm, polite and not in your face. We like good manners and politeness and there is a remarkable amount of it still around.
If you mean we like to keep up appearances as in not running around like headless chickens when things go ever so slightly wrong or we don't go shooting our mouths off about things which are personal like religion, our choice of contraception or whether or not we have abortions, you are correct. We keep up appearances when all is going to hell in a hand cart, we try to behave with decorum rather than weeping and wailing everywhere. We will say under the most dreadful conditions 'well it could be worse' because dammit it could be.
No we don't run off to the dentist to have our teeth fixed and whitened so it looks like a graveyard full of shiny tombstones in our mouths everytime we open our mouths. We have our fashions, which are copied in a lot of places, we may complain about our countries (yes countries, we have a few of them) but we also have sheer class. :ultracool

Don't judge us by yourselves, in fact don't judge us at all or any other country for that matter, speak for your own, praise it or damn it up to you but leave the rest of the world out of it. You can't judge a country like Japan, you know, merely from it's television shows.

Cory, I meant making such sweeping statements as the 'west' is meaningless, people should only speak of countries they know and I doubt many Americans have actually been to Georgia (the original one, you know, in Europe).

I guess Americans aren't the only thin-skinned folks around. Sorry, didn't mean to get yer dander up. I actually gave you props. But that goes back to what I was saying in regards to how people recieve what you say, regardless...

Oh, and in regards to the bolded part of your post... I couldn't resist. It suddenly reminded me of this:

 

[Carol]

True.

But that leads us back to the question.



Arw you saying that being unprofessional is a trait shared by those who find the truth offensive?

I think there can be a correlation. But there is also a responsibility of the manager to bear a standard for professionalism. If the manager does everything right (or close to right), then the fault is with the report for not being professional.

But if the manager doesn't manage the situation well -- if they don't explain why (say) comp time is necessary, if they are inconsistent with enforcement and give no reason for doing so, if they aren't professional with their communication....then the fault lies either more, or equally, with the manager for not setting the employee's expectations.

I remember working in a group a some years back ago who.he best fit for management, shall I say. He did some things very well. In other matters, he was grasping at straws. For example, he set metrics that were used to gauge the groups performance, but they were constantly in flux. One week, it was number of cases, another it was hours spent on cases, another it was hours spent on higher-priority cases. There were a number of us (myself included) that became very agitated with him because of how "the truth" was constantly changing.

So...sometimes I think reports have a legitimate gripe.

Other times...they jus' whinin' :lol2:

 

[celtic_crippler]

I think there can be a correlation. But there is also a responsibility of the manager to bear a standard for professionalism. If the manager does everything right (or close to right), then the fault is with the report for not being professional.

But if the manager doesn't manage the situation well -- if they don't explain why (say) comp time is necessary, if they are inconsistent with enforcement and give no reason for doing so, if they aren't professional with their communication....then the fault lies either more, or equally, with the manager for not setting the employee's expectations.

I remember working in a group a some years back ago who.he best fit for management, shall I say. He did some things very well. In other matters, he was grasping at straws. For example, he set metrics that were used to gauge the groups performance, but they were constantly in flux. One week, it was number of cases, another it was hours spent on cases, another it was hours spent on higher-priority cases. There were a number of us (myself included) that became very agitated with him because of how "the truth" was constantly changing.

So...sometimes I think reports have a legitimate gripe.

Other times...they jus' whinin' :lol2:

Circumstances impact perception, true (ironic how often that word has been used in this thread to express agreement...lol) but let's assume for the sake of argument that the "truth" does not change in this example.

Lets assume that the metrics and responsibilites of each report are clearly defined and all communications to them are professional & even courteous.

Now then, would you assume that uprofessionalism is a trait shared by those who often find the truth offensive?

 

[Carol]

Circumstances impact perception, true (ironic how often that word has been used in this thread to express agreement...lol) but let's assume for the sake of argument that the "truth" does not change in this example.

Lets assume that the metrics and responsibilites of each report are clearly defined and all communications to them are professional & even courteous.

Now then, would you assume that uprofessionalism is a trait shared by those who often find the truth offensive?

Sure. Especially in your comp time scenario, that's not even a matter of constructive criticism, that's a matter of standard operating procedures. You don't have to like it, but you do have to go along with the job.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

However, Crippler...you need to accept that not everyone appreciates 1) your sense of humor and 2) your particular manner of "telling the truth" as you see it. In watching you on this forum, I've seen that you can be crabby and take offense when riled. You have even (dare I say it? yes, I do dare) been somewhat insulting on occasion. Don't get me wrong, I like you and I think you're really funny, and I agree with a lot of your opinions, but it seems to me that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Review your own behavior and try to determine where you might have moderated your delivery or worked toward a mutually satisfactory outcome...it is only when we take responsibility for our own part in any problem that we truly grow. I hope you take this post as it was intended.

 

[celtic_crippler]

However, Crippler...you need to accept that not everyone appreciates 1) your sense of humor and 2) your particular manner of "telling the truth" as you see it. In watching you on this forum, I've seen that you can be crabby and take offense when riled. You have even (dare I say it? yes, I do dare) been somewhat insulting on occasion. Don't get me wrong, I like you and I think you're really funny, and I agree with a lot of your opinions, but it seems to me that you are the pot calling the kettle black. Review your own behavior and try to determine where you might have moderated your delivery or worked toward a mutually satisfactory outcome...it is only when we take responsibility for our own part in any problem that we truly grow. I hope you take this post as it was intended.

How dare you! lol

I never said that I wasn't an opinionated ****.

I have admitted to being wrong... on occasion, or to even having my opinion altered when someone presents a logical and rational point.

I am, after all, a flawed human being like every one else in constant need of improvement.

Here are some "truths" to ponder:

"The truth hurts. - anonymous

"A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for ithttp://thinkexist.com/quotation/a_thing_is_not_necessarily_true_because_a_man/217746.html” -Oscar Wilde

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them." - Galileo Galilei

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain

"You never find yourself, until you face the truth" - Pearl Bailey

"Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters, can not be trusted with important matters." -Albert Einstein

" The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is." -Winston Churchill

“What you percieve, your observations, feelings, interpretations, are all your truth. Your truth is important. Yet it is not The Truth." - Linda Ellinor

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

How dare you! lol

I never said that I wasn't an opinionated ****.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em, sugar pie. You're an ****, but amusing, so it balances out.

 

[KELLYG]

The truth is a fluid thing. Remember at one point every one thought the world was flat. It is also as individual to people, on a personal level, as a set of finger prints. Most take their life experience and incorporate it in to their decision making, right or wrong. For example an African American can see a confederate flag and have a different response than someone of another race. For me personally for me I am kinda like Mark Twain, except I always try to tell the truth because I find it hard to keep up with the lies that would be required to cover it up. Growing up if I got in trouble and was asked to explain myself, I always got punished more for lying, than telling the truth. As for the whole (western) thing. I think that many people in the west (America) do live in a fantasy land. I think that some of the current economic crisis that we are in is because of people trying to live out the "fantasy" life that is portrayed on TV as opposed to what their life and income allows. Also some (non-Americans) think that we are ignorant of what happens in the outside word, I think that in most cases they are correct. The media/news concentrates on things like the death of Michael Jackson, American Idol, Reality TV and things of that ilk that nothing of any great importance do not seep through.
:idunno: The thruth what it is is not for me to say. :idunno:

 

[Grenadier]

I can understand adding a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down (the medicine go down... the medicine go down... Sorry, thinking of Mary Poppins). A bit of tact and appropriateness can go a long way when presenting the truth.

On the other hand, there comes a point where too much sugar causes you to rot...

Let's look at the term "black," as it is used to describe someone with darker skin. There's nothing wrong with calling a black person a "black person," since it is what it is. Going out of one's way to use the term "African American" is a foolish thing, indeed, since not all black Americans are of African descent.

Calling a Jamaican American an "African American" is simply not correct, and in many cases, can result in the Jamaican American taking it as an insult. There are also black Brazilian Americans who would take offense at being called "African American." The use of the term "black" is not offensive to them, though.

Give people credit... They're not going to be nearly as offended over non-politically correct things as the politically correct boogeymen would have you believe.

Sometimes, you got to call a spade "a spade."

 

[Tez3]

Actually if you are going to call people African whatever, calling Jamacians that is correct, all black Jamaicans are decended from African slaves. The native people of the West Indies were Indians akin to the Incas, Aztecs etc, they were completely wiped out by the white settlers who then brought African slaves in.

Btw I'm not 'thin skinned' in the least, I just like putting people right when they go wrong! Of course the Americans like us Brits, we invented them!

 

[celtic_crippler]

I calls 'em as I sees 'em, sugar pie. You're an ****, but amusing, so it balances out.

There's nothing I respect more!

I'm still working on the "****" thing... It's a work in progress. LOL

The truth is a fluid thing. Remember at one point every one thought the world was flat. It is also as individual to people, on a personal level, as a set of finger prints. Most take their life experience and incorporate it in to their decision making, right or wrong. For example an African American can see a confederate flag and have a different response than someone of another race. For me personally for me I am kinda like Mark Twain, except I always try to tell the truth because I find it hard to keep up with the lies that would be required to cover it up. Growing up if I got in trouble and was asked to explain myself, I always got punished more for lying, than telling the truth. As for the whole (western) thing. I think that many people in the west (America) do live in a fantasy land. I think that some of the current economic crisis that we are in is because of people trying to live out the "fantasy" life that is portrayed on TV as opposed to what their life and income allows. Also some (non-Americans) think that we are ignorant of what happens in the outside word, I think that in most cases they are correct. The media/news concentrates on things like the death of Michael Jackson, American Idol, Reality TV and things of that ilk that nothing of any great importance do not seep through.
:idunno: The thruth what it is is not for me to say. :idunno:

Great post.

Perception has a huge influence on how individuals interpret the "truth."

Perception is influence by such variables as the media.

I can understand adding a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down (the medicine go down... the medicine go down... Sorry, thinking of Mary Poppins). A bit of tact and appropriateness can go a long way when presenting the truth.

On the other hand, there comes a point where too much sugar causes you to rot...

Let's look at the term "black," as it is used to describe someone with darker skin. There's nothing wrong with calling a black person a "black person," since it is what it is. Going out of one's way to use the term "African American" is a foolish thing, indeed, since not all black Americans are of African descent.

Calling a Jamaican American an "African American" is simply not correct, and in many cases, can result in the Jamaican American taking it as an insult. There are also black Brazilian Americans who would take offense at being called "African American." The use of the term "black" is not offensive to them, though.

Give people credit... They're not going to be nearly as offended over non-politically correct things as the politically correct boogeymen would have you believe.

Sometimes, you got to call a spade "a spade."

Exactly! Though tact and respect is necessary in dealings with others, where is the line drawn where being PC becomes detrimental to truth?

IMHO, if you're an American then you're an American. Be an American. It's okay to be proud of your ancestory, but be a f'n American first for crying out loud.

Actually if you are going to call people African whatever, calling Jamacians that is correct, all black Jamaicans are decended from African slaves. The native people of the West Indies were Indians akin to the Incas, Aztecs etc, they were completely wiped out by the white settlers who then brought African slaves in.

Btw I'm not 'thin skinned' in the least, I just like putting people right when they go wrong! Of course the Americans like us Brits, we invented them!

We are related. No doubt, as most Americans are WASPs decended from early colonists.

Don't hesitate to put me straight... I love it when you get rough with me. :inlove:

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I'm still working on the "****" thing... It's a work in progress. LOL

:inlove:

You might try some of those "Butt Lift" jeans.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I can understand adding a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down (the medicine go down... the medicine go down... Sorry, thinking of Mary Poppins). A bit of tact and appropriateness can go a long way when presenting the truth.

On the other hand, there comes a point where too much sugar causes you to rot...

Let's look at the term "black," as it is used to describe someone with darker skin. There's nothing wrong with calling a black person a "black person," since it is what it is. Going out of one's way to use the term "African American" is a foolish thing, indeed, since not all black Americans are of African descent.

Calling a Jamaican American an "African American" is simply not correct, and in many cases, can result in the Jamaican American taking it as an insult. There are also black Brazilian Americans who would take offense at being called "African American." The use of the term "black" is not offensive to them, though.

Give people credit... They're not going to be nearly as offended over non-politically correct things as the politically correct boogeymen would have you believe.

Sometimes, you got to call a spade "a spade."

I have never met a black person who got pissed off at being called black. I think it is super-sensitive white people who are trying to be kind and it ends up just making more trouble than it's worth.