Whats your favourite weapon?

[Disco]

All you guys are crazy (but in a good way). If you really, really, really want to stop them cold, then the only weapon you need is the Bolurus Digital Death Ray Pultonium Modulator - model #148593. Light weight (156 kilos) and easy to reload. Zorn from Transpixler 2 holds the galatic record with a reload in 2.5 bleems without mind you, the use of his third hand.

 

[MartialArtist]

Where can I get one of those? However, non-firearm, I like the light saber.

 

[DAC..florida]

Gary m
It is possible that cost could be a major factor but when given the option to carry a .45 .40 or a 9mm 7 out of 10 officers I have talked to still carry a 9mm.

Martial artist
Although your point is valid I would like to know how many actual F.B.I. agents or S.W.A.T. team members you have actually trained with and asked these questions, I still feel you are all getting your input from a magazine artical.


Jonathan napalm
I have read and commented on other threads about ZDW's credability, I am not a follower and will not participate in the bashing of someone on this site whom I have not met just because they will not feed people personal info....
ZDW has put some very good info out there for all of us to enjoy and I will not show disrespect to anyone on this site!

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Gary m
It is possible that cost could be a major factor but when given the option to carry a .45 .40 or a 9mm 7 out of 10 officers I have talked to still carry a 9mm.

Martial artist
Although your point is valid I would like to know how many actual F.B.I. agents or S.W.A.T. team members you have actually trained with and asked these questions, I still feel you are all getting your input from a magazine artical.


Jonathan napalm
I have read and commented on other threads about ZDW's credability, I am not a follower and will not participate in the bashing of someone on this site whom I have not met just because they will not feed people personal info....
ZDW has put some very good info out there for all of us to enjoy and I will not show disrespect to anyone on this site!

I know of one FBI agent, that's about it, most my experience comes with the military.

But, look at this... LAPD SWAT adopted custom Kimbers, the local PD here adopted H&K .45's and Sigs and Glocks in at least 10mm, so...

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Gary m
It is possible that cost could be a major factor but when given the option to carry a .45 .40 or a 9mm 7 out of 10 officers I have talked to still carry a 9mm.

Martial artist
Although your point is valid I would like to know how many actual F.B.I. agents or S.W.A.T. team members you have actually trained with and asked these questions, I still feel you are all getting your input from a magazine artical.


Jonathan napalm
I have read and commented on other threads about ZDW's credability, I am not a follower and will not participate in the bashing of someone on this site whom I have not met just because they will not feed people personal info....
ZDW has put some very good info out there for all of us to enjoy and I will not show disrespect to anyone on this site!

And again, people who carry 9mm are usually traffic patrol, and the normal, everyday cops. A 9mm won't cut it in the cut-throat world of organized crime and/or acts of terrorism. The only 9mm they carry is out of a MP5.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

@DAC
If you must know, the FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team), the US Marshall SOG (Special Operation Group), carry 45. I can go check the counties and PDs, but it would take too much time.

I find it hilarious that the people carry 9 +P making a fuss about the recoil of the higher caliber while in reality the recoil of the +P load is similar to the regular 40. lol. Yet, these people all claim to have "credential" . How sad!

ZDW was making assertion about the need of having great penetration. Such claim is the biggest butt of joke. Everybody in the firearm field knows that the paramount problem is over penetration and lack of EXPANSION. The issue is kinetic energy transfer. ZDW got it the other way round! GOSH! He makes all the wrong claim which if people believed, would get them to equip themselves with ammo that over penetrates and lack of stopping power. That is unforgivable.

Whatever you want to think of him, is fine. I made no beef about his credibility and reputation, until he kept dragging it out and forced me to address it. I didn't bash him other than pointing out what others have questioned his credibility for.

People like ZDW are dangerous. He mixed some good points with a lot of erroneous ones. If he was totally wrong, then it would be simpler. But people such as him, tend to post apparently convincing but factually bogus information.

As for the 45, its stopping power is beyond a doubt. Not that the 9 is useless. Nothing in life is so clear cut. With the right ammo, the 9 is a stone cold killer. However, it is a question of confidence. If that shot MUST counts, or else, the elite field operators go with the 45. Why is that? When the real life result flies in the face of lab test, the lab test is to be discarded.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

There is a question that is yet to be answer.

For the kind of ammo that would knock you to your a$$, try the 135 g 40 hollow-point at 1300 fps. If you want proof, locate the first field shooting report.

The 135g/1300 fps combo can be found in the Pro-Load tactical Triton HiVel lines.

 

[A.R.K.]

ZDW was making assertion about the need of having great penetration.

Once again you are incorrect my friend. Re-read my posts. I continually have said penetration to vital organs. That is not great penetration that is adequate penatration. Which in LEO is at least 12 inches. The lawfull shooter needs penetration to reach vital organs even through limbs and common barriers. Why someone cannot understand this principle is beyond me honestly. This is for LEO as well as civilians.

Everybody in the firearm field knows that the paramount problem is over penetration and lack of EXPANSION. The issue is kinetic energy transfer

Wrong again my friend. The only people talking about energy transfer are people like Marshall & Sanow whose OSS study has been so shot full of holes [no pun intended] that I almost feel sorry for them. Guns & Ammo and like gun rags that create controversy where none actually exists to sell their magazine and a few others who have been shown to have ties to ammo companies. Professional organizations KNOW that 'energy transfer' out of a handgun is a catch-phrase for those that are gullible, no offense but it's true. They have to have the latest gimmick ammo and the highest velocity. Doesn't mean zip at hand gun power levels and certainly CAN'T knock a man off his feet. I have seen 10 lbs watermelons with a vest in front being shot with a 12 gauge with 00 buck at a distance of 10 feet. The melon was routinely NOT knocked over. Much less a full grown man.

Even Joe Zambone knew this and demonstrated it in his 93 video touting his Magsafe ammo. I KNEW Joe Z [rip] and talked to him often. An though he touted energy transfer he knew it could not knock a man down. His Magsafe ammo has more energy transfer then just about ANY conventional ammo and I have it on video taking TWO shots from a .40 agent load [maxxed out hot load] to knock a polaroid camera off the work bench!

The 135g/1300 fps combo can be found in the Pro-Load tactical Triton HiVel lines.

This has the exact sectional density of a 115 9mm. It is 1mm larger and 50 fps SLOWER than say a Cor-bon 115+P and will penetrate to roughly 9-10 inches routinely in geletin as well as people. This is NOT enough for most situations. It would do well in a best case senerio where there is an unobstructed frontal torso shot on an average sized man. Do you want to depend on this? I do not.

I use a 124+P Gold dot 9mm in my Glock 19 and a 200 +P Gold dot in my .45. They have the same sectional density and depth of penetration. They perform ideally out of my barrel lengths and have enough penatration as well as expansion. They both have similar terminal ballistics, both function well and are accurate. They are not magic...but no round is.

I KNOW both these rounds in both these calibers do well in actual shootings because it is our agency rounds. The 9mm has done superbly. NO angency in our area of the state uses 115/135/185 weight rounds in 9/.40/.45 because they DO NOT have adequate penetration, period.

I didn't bash him other than pointing out what others have questioned his credibility for.

Nobody on this board that 'bashed' me ever actually checked out my credentials first hand. They made assumptions, inuendos and issued tirade unfoundedly. Only one individual did check me out...and is now MY STUDENT I have offered time and again contacts to verify who I am and what I know. I have provided resources to individuals and sites that routinely deal with LEO/Gov in this area that verify EVERYTHING I have stated here.

NO offense but you bring things up like 'energy transfer', 'OSS', 'Straousburg tests', 'Temporary cavitation', 'Stopping/knockdown power' and you will be laughed to scorn by these people who ARE experts in this field. People whom the FBI, LEO, MIlitary consult.

You relegate Glocktalk.com to an 'anonyomous site'. Funny but again incorrect. It has over 20,000 members worldwide with some of the most famous people in this field even and including Evan Marshall. People like Shawn Dodson and members of the IWBA etc. LEO's and military from all over the world post there. I have been there almost from it's inception and am routinely called on for my input. Not because I'm special or great...but because I offer sound, combat proven advise.

I encourage EVERYONE to look at these resourses and the data they contain. I will point out at every chance fallacies such as energy transfer and OSS and 'goat tests'

People there are three main basics;

Function

Penetration

Accuracy under stress

Everything else is a distant fourth!

A .45 is fine...I have one. But NOT because it will 'knock' you down...that is simply silly. I have one because I carry two LEO firearms Instructor certs and our agency uses both 9mm and .45 [limited to perhaps 5% of active officers]. This is a 2500 member department. I feel just as well off with my 9mm and so should everyone else here with what they have be it a 9mm, .380, .25, .45 etc.

Chose your equipment wisely and DON'T rely on gun rags who have a product to sell.

Stay safe.

 

[GaryM]

[ I feel just as well off with my 9mm and so should everyone else here with what they have be it a 9mm, .380, .25, .45 etc.

Chose your equipment wisely and DON'T rely on gun rags who have a product to sell.

Stay safe. [/B]

I have personally seen a .25 NOT penetrate thru a 1/2 inch piece of sheetrock. A .380 is very underpowered, it's ONLY value is concealability. So what happened to your penetration argument? Any hunters out there? How would you feel about hunting grizzly bear or lion with a 5.56 mm in full metal jacket? If so I suggest you remove the sights from your rifle. That way it won't hurt quite as bad when the bear shoves it up your a**. Also Zhao, if it just doesn't matter, why do you carry a 'souped up' round in your 9mm. Seems like that would defeat the purpose of lighter recoil and quick second shots. Remember, civilians can't easily acquire 18 round mags anymore, so the larger capacity is not a good answer. (Besides, anyone who emptys a magazine so fast that he hasn't had time to find cover to change magazines isn't trying to be accurate, they are just pulling the trigger as fast as possible and hoping to get lucky)

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
There is a question that is yet to be answer.

For the kind of ammo that would knock you to your a$$, try the 135 g 40 hollow-point at 1300 fps. If you want proof, locate the first field shooting report.

The 135g/1300 fps combo can be found in the Pro-Load tactical Triton HiVel lines.

It is physically impossible for a bullet to knock you down just due to energy transfer. Not even .50 cal machine guns can do that. Again, it's due to the reason that the bullet causes some sort of damage or you instinctively fall or other reasons. Hypothetically, if the bullet transfered all of its energy to you, and you had armor that can't be pierced, you would not fall down. The report tests on people's reactions which is they'll most likely go to the ground because they were either shot and were bleeding, or they got hit in a dangerous place that disabled them.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GaryM
I have personally seen a .25 NOT penetrate thru a 1/2 inch piece of sheetrock. A .380 is very underpowered, it's ONLY value is concealability. So what happened to your penetration argument? Any hunters out there? How would you feel about hunting grizzly bear or lion with a 5.56 mm in full metal jacket? If so I suggest you remove the sights from your rifle. That way it won't hurt quite as bad when the bear shoves it up your a**. Also Zhao, if it just doesn't matter, why do you carry a 'souped up' round in your 9mm. Seems like that would defeat the purpose of lighter recoil and quick second shots. Remember, civilians can't easily acquire 18 round mags anymore, so the larger capacity is not a good answer. (Besides, anyone who emptys a magazine so fast that he hasn't had time to find cover to change magazines isn't trying to be accurate, they are just pulling the trigger as fast as possible and hoping to get lucky)

I'd go hunt a bear or a lion with a 5.56mm equipped with FMJ ammunition... If I had a M-16 or a M4 in full automatic. An experienced hunter carries at least one mag of FMJ rounds (considering this was a big hunt and there were multiple people involved) only because they could aim at certain places (such as certain organs on the animal that will not damage anything to lower the price of the meat, skin, etc.). After the FMJ bullet goes through, they really just wait. It really can't move if it hit at the right spot, and if it does, there are people with hollow-points ready.

But that's a good point. I'm not a hunter, I don't like to kill animals. But, no person with a brain hunts in anything lower than a .44 magnum. A .45 ACP round might cut for hunting large game, but hunting is where you need huge magnum rounds.

 

[A.R.K.]

I have personally seen a .25 NOT penetrate thru a 1/2 inch piece of sheetrock

This is true, however, I also have a report in my files from Las Vegas PD. About two years ago an off-duty LEO was shot 8 times with a .40 and once with a 9mm. He not only survived [poor shot placement] but returned fire with his .25 pocket pistol and scored 6 for 6 hits in the chest with fmj loads. The Bg was DRT, he survived and is back on duty today as far as I know.

Is it what I would consider a viable SD caliber, hmmm...not for me personally. BUT if for some reason an individual cannot accurately control a larger caliber under stress, then it is a viable caliber. A small gun is better than no gun. And as demonstrated it can be effective with proper shot placement. With a fmj It may very well penatrate a limb or at least have that 'travel' that the .25/.22's are famous for. Again, it's better thatn nothing for those that don't have a viable alternative.

A .380 is very underpowered, it's ONLY value is concealability.

Agreed, but again can work if there is no viable alternative. And with a good hp or fmj it may have the penatration neccessary to hit a vital organ/CNS etc. Is it perfect...no, but then none of them are.

Any hunters out there? How would you feel about hunting grizzly bear or lion with a 5.56 mm in full metal jacket?

The same can be said for a 9mm handgun. But just last summer in Alaska a hunter, unable to get to his long gun, shot and killed a charging grizzly bear with a 9mm handgun with fmj's. Not the idea choice and certainly not to be recommended. But penetration and excellent shot placement saved his life.

Also Zhao, if it just doesn't matter, why do you carry a 'souped up' round in your 9mm

The 124+P Gold dot is not what most would consider souped up, by any stretch. It is a bonded bullet so as to retain maximum weight after impact with no jacket seperation, thereby promoting penetration. The +P goes about 50 fps faster than the standard round...not really anything to get exited about. I would be just as happy with the standard non +P, but I get them for free so why pay for something else.

The +P on the 200 .45 is because a Glock 30 has a 3.75 inch barrel as opposed to a 5 inch which is the industry standard that ballistics are measured by. With reduced length comes reduced velocity. The +P gives it a little extra to promote positive expansion out of the shorter barrel while stile keeping adequate penetration.

Seems like that would defeat the purpose of lighter recoil and quick second shots

In my youth I grew up with magnums. The recoil of a 124 +P 9mm or a 200+P .45 pales in comparison. I have handled both accurately under stress which is the benchmark.

Remember, civilians can't easily acquire 18 round mags anymore, so the larger capacity is not a good answer

There is still a vast supply of hi cap mags available...for a price. I have hi caps of course for the 9 but the G30 comes standard with 10 rounds. I feel fine with either. Anymore than a few shots and your really having a bad day

(Besides, anyone who emptys a magazine so fast that he hasn't had time to find cover to change magazines isn't trying to be accurate, they are just pulling the trigger as fast as possible and hoping to get lucky)

Agreed, which is why people [if allowed] need to shoot under stress as much as is saftely allowed. Big difference between marksmanship shooting and combat shooting..

Take care.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Ok. I am done with this argumentative back and forth about whether a bullet can knock you down. It is getting to the point where lunacy is setting in where people even claim that a 12 gauge blast would not knock you over, or a 50 would leave you standing. Hell, I have seen people got knocked on their *** by the RECOIL of a 12 gauge.

I gave you the ammo that has field report of knock down power. According to the field report, "the suspect was attempting to stab a police officer.....the 135 g JHP flung him back and to the ground..." So, I did my share of providing info. We will let readers judge for themselves.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

AS for ZDW's profile, ZDW made lots of claims, as a result, lots of questions were raised. ZDW provided his rebuttal. Whether it is any good, I don't know, nor do I really care. Again, readers can judge for themselves.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

As for the issue of Marshall and Sanow vs Frackler and his IWBA, that is the ongoing Morgue Monster vs Jello Junkies. Marshall and Sanow based their conclusion of effectiveness on real life field reports. Frackle has this theory , based on wound paths in 10% formula ballistic gel, that the bullet has to penetrate at least 12 inches, in order for it to be effective in hitting vital organs in human.

ZDW is in the IWBA camp.

Both sides agree on what the best ammo for the 45 are. They just don't agree on what is best for the 9. Most of the virulent attack has come from the IWBA camp. Yet, we all know that when the lab gellatin test is not supported by real life result, you ignore real life result at your peril. (Which, unfortunately is what ZDW is advocating.) I would advise to go with the experience of the real life elite forces.

The problem with the IWBA's theory is, the bullet has to penetrate deep enough and hits vital organs, in order to be effective. That, unfortunately does not reconcile with the real-world result. The 135g/1300fps 40 JHP will kill you without touching vital organs. It tested 10 inches wound depth in gelatin jelly test, not meeting the IWBA's holy grail of 12 inches requirement. But the coroner's question was "what kind of explosive you put in the bullet that caused such a massive wound?" Another real-world result that flies in the face of IWBA theory is the 357 Sig. The 357 sig is basically a 9mm powered by 40 cartridge. It dropped offenders instantly even when hit in the non-vital areas.

Dr. Bruce Ragsdake tested that when a bullet passed close to a blood vessel, without actually striking it, the stretch cavity was sufficient to tear the vessel.

Both lab tests and real-world results, prove that the IWBA's dogma on "penetration to vital organ" is NOT true.

ZDW's position on hanguns ammo, reflects verbatim the IWBA dogma.

The question is, do you follow the real world experience of the elite military and law enforcement, or do you follow the advice from gellatin lab test and the arming choice of your county deputies? (I am not dissing the deputies. Most are hard working, dedicated loyal public servants. Just that the situations they deal with are not the same as those faced by the elite forces/agents)

The readers can decide what they want to bet their lives on.

 

[A.R.K.]

Ok. I am done with this argumentative back and forth about whether a bullet can knock you down.

Good, hopefully this means that you now realize that they cannot.

12 gauge blast would not knock you over

I've seen test after test. I've seen people shot with 12g and they were NOT knocked down. Little hard on your theory don't you think. Two LEO professionals as well as other knowledgable posters are telling you it is a pschological result not a pshsiological result.

Even Marshall Evan knows a hand gun bullet CAN'T knock you down and states so in multiple accounts. If you still want to believe they can....go right ahead

the 135 g JHP flung him back and to the ground

Ahh yea ok

You STILL have yet to answer why a winschester model 70 in the hands of probably the best sniper in history not only failed to knock down a VC...it failed to even stop his advance with SIX COM shots. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this....[and I know several others that would like to hear as well]. Or why it takes 2 shots from a .40 Magsafe Agent load to knock a little polaroid camera off a work bench.....

AS for ZDW's profile, ZDW made lots of claims, as a result, lots of questions were raised. ZDW provided his rebuttal. Whether it is any good, I don't know, nor do I really care.

Everyone of which has been backed up. And if you don't care...why do you keep bringing it up?

Marshall and Sanow based their conclusion of effectiveness on real life field reports

I KNEW you would eventually go to the OSS study. I've been waiting for this with GREAT anticipation :rofl:

This 'real life field reports' to which you refer are a collection of unverified and in MANY cases discredited reports. In short, they were falsified to propose a different conclusion. This has been widely reported by every respectable LEO/military style journal. The statistics that they use to reach their conclusions have also been debunked. So has the Strousburg tests btw. If you lean on these OSS studies you are leaning on something that is a figment of the imagination.

Dr. Fackler on the other hand is one of the formost experts on the planet in regards to wound ballistics. Probably why the military and FBI rely so heavily on his input...it works.

Do you really want to see how far this dog hunts? I am willing to go into indepth discussion on this subject complete with references to the page number if you are really wanting to go the distance.....

ZDW is in the IWBA camp.

Actually I am in the realistic camp. Based on two decades of first hand knowledge, interviews, research etc as to what happens in real life.

The 135g/1300fps 40 JHP will kill you without touching vital organs.

It just can't knock a little camera off a work bench

Dr. Bruce Ragsdake tested that when a bullet passed close to a blood vessel, without actually striking it, the stretch cavity was sufficient to tear the vessel.

In rifle calibers maybe. Dr. Fackler plainly explains that a handgun bullet is not capable of this.

The question is, do you follow the real world experience of the elite military and law enforcement

The answer is yes. Which is what I've been posting here for quite some time now. And along the way pointing out fantasy such as M & S's OSS, energy transfer, knock down power etc al.

You have some research to do then we would like to hear your answers to any/all of the questions poised to you that demonstrate your energy transfer theory is incorrect.

Have a nice day my friend.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Good, hopefully this means that you now realize that they cannot.



I've seen test after test. I've seen people shot with 12g and they were NOT knocked down. Little hard on your theory don't you think. Two LEO professionals as well as other knowledgable posters are telling you it is a pschological result not a pshsiological result.

Even Marshall Evan knows a hand gun bullet CAN'T knock you down and states so in multiple accounts. If you still want to believe they can....go right ahead




Ahh yea ok

You STILL have yet to answer why a winschester model 70 in the hands of probably the best sniper in history not only failed to knock down a VC...it failed to even stop his advance with SIX COM shots. I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this....[and I know several others that would like to hear as well]. Or why it takes 2 shots from a .40 Magsafe Agent load to knock a little polaroid camera off a work bench.....



Everyone of which has been backed up. And if you don't care...why do you keep bringing it up?



I KNEW you would eventually go to the OSS study. I've been waiting for this with GREAT anticipation :rofl:

This 'real life field reports' to which you refer are a collection of unverified and in MANY cases discredited reports. In short, they were falsified to propose a different conclusion. This has been widely reported by every respectable LEO/military style journal. The statistics that they use to reach their conclusions have also been debunked. So has the Strousburg tests btw. If you lean on these OSS studies you are leaning on something that is a figment of the imagination.

Dr. Fackler on the other hand is one of the formost experts on the planet in regards to wound ballistics. Probably why the military and FBI rely so heavily on his input...it works.

Do you really want to see how far this dog hunts? I am willing to go into indepth discussion on this subject complete with references to the page number if you are really wanting to go the distance.....



Actually I am in the realistic camp. Based on two decades of first hand knowledge, interviews, research etc as to what happens in real life.



It just can't knock a little camera off a work bench



In rifle calibers maybe. Dr. Fackler plainly explains that a handgun bullet is not capable of this.



The answer is yes. Which is what I've been posting here for quite some time now. And along the way pointing out fantasy such as M & S's OSS, energy transfer, knock down power etc al.

You have some research to do then we would like to hear your answers to any/all of the questions poised to you that demonstrate your energy transfer theory is incorrect.

Have a nice day my friend.

What? You've never seen anyone sent back because of the recoil?

A bullet does not knock you down JN, not even a .50. It will take you down, but not "bring" you down if you know what I mean. However, a shotgun can knock you down and it can be proven with high school physics.

ZDW, are you telling me you've never seen anyone knocked down by the recoil of a gun? You've got to be kidding me. With something like a M3, you need the proper stance or you will be knocked back. Even with the proper stance, it might bring you back a step if you are limp. Why do you think heavy machine guns (.50 cal) have a bipod/tripod? The recoil will make you shoot in the air while sending you back. The gun being too heavy to be mobile with isn't really the biggest reason. High-powered sniper rifles also have a bipod.

 

[A.R.K.]

You've never seen anyone sent back because of the recoil?

I have seen many people with the high power calibers go back because of the recoil. Mainly because of bad stance.

I have seen and later interviewed a 20 yr old man that tried the suicide-by-cop senerio. 3 well placed 9mm hydro shoks AND a 12g 00 buck COM failed to knock this young man down. They were in rapid order and this young man [120 lbs soaking wet] had to be physically subdued afterwards. The rounds just didn't work and they did not knock him down.

Can the BIG high calibers knock you down..perhaps based on several factors. But again, Sgt, Heathcock shot a VC 6 times COM with the Win 70 with dismal results. A head shot on the 7th time put him down.

My biggest point to JN and everyone is that a handgun bullet can't knock a person back. That is hollywood. As you've said, it can 'bring' you down but not 'take' you down. I don't want people that are unfamilar in this area to be mislead.

As I said before, you and I are pretty much on the same sheet of music. The operator is more important than the equipment.

Function.....Penetration.....Accuracy under stress.

Take care.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
I have seen many people with the high power calibers go back because of the recoil. Mainly because of bad stance.

I have seen and later interviewed a 20 yr old man that tried the suicide-by-cop senerio. 3 well placed 9mm hydro shoks AND a 12g 00 buck COM failed to knock this young man down. They were in rapid order and this young man [120 lbs soaking wet] had to be physically subdued afterwards. The rounds just didn't work and they did not knock him down.

Can the BIG high calibers knock you down..perhaps based on several factors. But again, Sgt, Heathcock shot a VC 6 times COM with the Win 70 with dismal results. A head shot on the 7th time put him down.

My biggest point to JN and everyone is that a handgun bullet can't knock a person back. That is hollywood. As you've said, it can 'bring' you down but not 'take' you down. I don't want people that are unfamilar in this area to be mislead.

As I said before, you and I are pretty much on the same sheet of music. The operator is more important than the equipment.

Function.....Penetration.....Accuracy under stress.

Take care.

Do you mean hydra-shock ammunition?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Someone who is 120lb, got blasted with a 12 gauge after taking 3 HydraShok first, and ZDW claimed that the guy still needed to be physically restrained. You see, tales like this, is the reason people doubt ZDW in the first place. Anyone who knows anything about firearms, know that within effective range, a blast from a 12 guage will blow a gapping hole in the torso, or chop a limb off. Even if you are high on drug, a 12 gauge blast will stop you dead cold. ZDW's tall tales never end.

As for IWBA, you can't argue with these people. They bought into everything Frackler spills out, even if it flies in the face of reality. IWBA followers' dogmatic personal attack on Marshall and Sanow is legendary.

IWBA preaches the mandatory 12 inch penetration, and the blind assertion that only when vital organs are hit, would the bullet be effective. There are overwhelming tests and real world result to contradict those theories.

1. Dr. Bruce Ragsdale (Armed Forces Institute of Pathology) embedded pig aortas in Frackler gelatin and shot the Illionois State Police load (115g +p+ 9mm). The result showed that just by passing close to the aorta, without actually hitting it, the stretch cavity was sufficient to tear the aorta. Yet, the IWBA followers refuse to accept this fact. How can any reasonable person closes his eyes and insists this was not happening?

2. There are 2 rounds, designed to penetrate only 9-11 inches, short of Frackler's magic 12 inches. The 123g, 357 Magnum hollow-points @ 1400 fps and the famed ISP load, 115g, +p+ hollow points @1300 fps. The Indianapolis PD used the 357 Magnum in 220 shootings. There was never an effective return fire from a felon hit with one of these in the torso. The Kentucky State Police had the same experience with this 357 magnum. The 115 g Illinois State Police JHP +P+ @1300 is the best man-stopper in the 9mm , b/c it opens up large volume in wound cavity. The US Border Patrol and the Secret Service found the same in extensive real-world experience. Yet, both these 2 rounds are considered inadequte by Fracker's mandatory 12 inches penetration.

3. The 135 g, 40 JHP @1300, opens a 10 inch wound deep, well short of Frakler's magic 12 again. Yet, if you got shot with one of these, the coroner's office would like know if explosive was put in the bullet. This is in actual case files. Yet, ZDW saw fit to dismiss it offhand. (His words,"It just can't knock a little camera off a work bench.." hmmmm..... Wanna bet your life on it?)

4. The 357 Sig, a 40 cartridge necked down to take a 9mm bullet. This round has proven to drop felons instantly even when hit in the non-vital areas like the abdomen. When Cops hear the IWBA diehards rail against this round for lack of penetration, they just roll their eyes and continue to carry their 357 Sigs.

In short, ZDW being the typical IWBA follower, is reciting what ever Frackler spills out. Yet, the real-world results involving hundreds and hundreds cases, in different PDs, Counties, and State Police, prove that IWBA and Frackler's skewed bias for penetration, is half baked. Yet, IWBA followers are like those conspiracy nuts. They dimiss every one of those real shooting as fake. Way to go!

WHEN WE IGNORE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD, WE DO SO AT OUR PERIL.