What is TSD history?

kbarrett

Orange Belt
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
61
Reaction score
3
The true history and origins of TSD have been best to death, as one person said it all depends on who you believe. GM Won Kuk Lee learned (Okinawan Karate) Shotokan while living in Japan, he brought Shotokan back with him to Korea in 1944 but he called his style Tang Soo Do, then in 1945 he founded the Chung Do Kwan, at that point he arts was known as Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do. GM Hwang Keen went to China where he learn Tai chi chaun and train in Sholin Long Fist, returning to Korea he opened a dojang calling his atr Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, which failed and he close it. During this time it is reported that he train with MG Won Kuk Lee in Tang Soo Do and in 1947 reopened his dojang calling style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. I believe it was in the 50's mabe the 60's he started the slow change to become Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan after he found the Muye Dobo Tonji which really influenced him a lot. This is what I have come to learn, again there are so many different stories I wonder whether it really matters any more. Ken
 

Makalakumu

Gonzo Karate Apocalypse
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
13,887
Reaction score
232
Location
Hawaii
I wonder how much Hwang Kee's job on the railroad affected the spread of his school? I read that there was a dojang in a whole bunch of train stations all around South Korea.
 

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
GM Won Kuk Lee learned (Okinawan Karate) Shotokan while living in Japan, he brought Shotokan back with him to Korea in 1944 but he called his style Tang Soo Do, then in 1945 he founded the Chung Do Kwan, at that point he arts was known as Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do.

According to GM Lee, he came back to Korea in January 1944 and opened the Chung Do Kwan in September 1944, not 1945.


GM Hwang Keen went to China where he learn Tai chi chaun and train in Sholin Long Fist, returning to Korea he opened a dojang calling his atr Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, which failed and he close it.

I think GM Hwang learned tai chi in Manchuria but not long fist. There is a form called jang kwon which is part of the moo duk kwan curriculum, but we established that GM Hwang Kee learned jang kwon from GM YOON Byung In.

During this time it is reported that he train with MG Won Kuk Lee in Tang Soo Do and in 1947 reopened his dojang calling style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

He started training with one of GM Lee's students, GM HYUN Jong Myung while both were working at Seoul Station, in 1944 I believe. He hung around the Chung Do Kwan and would attend all of the belt tests, but I don't think he actually studied directly under GM Lee. I believe GM Lee said that he studied with GM Hyun at Seoul Station, that GM Hyun asked GM Lee to give GM Hwang rank, and GM Lee gave him a 6th guep, white belt.
 

kbarrett

Orange Belt
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
61
Reaction score
3
Your right GM Won Kuk Lee studied Okinawan Karate (Shotokan) while in Japan, but when he returned to Korea and after he got permission from the Japanese to open a school he started teaching Okinawan Karate calling his art "Tang Soo Do" I believe it wasn't until after the liberation of Korea in 1945 the GM Won Kuku Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan and it was at that point that his style came to be known as the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do and today it's known as the Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do. GM Hwang Kee's Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan was founded in November 1945 after his return from China, where he studied "Tai Chi Chuan" as for the "Long Fist" I'm not 100% sure whether he studied that or not but that is what I've herd over th years. From what I've learn over the year GM Kee did study at the Chung Do kwan, and got the rank or 6th gup. and some time after that he startedtraining with Ki Wang Kim where it's said GM Kee learned the bulk of the Hyungs that are in the Tang Soo Do system today, and in 1947 GM Kee reopened his Moo Duk Kwan dojang calling his art Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do, and would be many years later that he start making the changes to Moo Duk Kwan Soo Bahk Do after he found the Muye Dobo Tonji in the library, he is also the one who created the Yuk Rho, Chil Sung, Hwa Sun Hyung from what he learn from the Muye Dobo tonji, this is waht I've come to learn after all these years,andwhile it's great learning different history I'll still say does it really matter any more who started what first, that was in 1945 most us wheren't born yet, and now it's 2012 we're all so far removed from that period time. Mr. Puunui I have enjoyed talking with about thsi subject thank you, take care. Ken
 

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
Your right GM Won Kuk Lee studied Okinawan Karate (Shotokan) while in Japan, but when he returned to Korea and after he got permission from the Japanese to open a school he started teaching Okinawan Karate calling his art "Tang Soo Do" I believe it wasn't until after the liberation of Korea in 1945 the GM Won Kuku Lee founded the Chung Do Kwan and it was at that point that his style came to be known as the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do and today it's known as the Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do.

GM Lee opened the Chung Do Kwan in 1944. It is on the Chung Do Kwan certificates in the middle of the symbol, the date 1944. The name Tangsoodo and Chung Do Kwan were used at the same time. GM Lee created the name Tangsoodo. GM Lee said that he had to temporarily shut down the Chung Do Kwan after the liberation in August 1945 because the country was in chaos. He reopened the Chung Do Kwan in February 1946 when things settled down.


GM Hwang Kee's Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan was founded in November 1945 after his return from China, where he studied "Tai Chi Chuan" as for the "Long Fist" I'm not 100% sure whether he studied that or not but that is what I've herd over th years.

The seniors dispute that November 1945 opening date, saying there is no evidence of that.


From what I've learn over the year GM Kee did study at the Chung Do kwan, and got the rank or 6th gup.

That information originally came from me, the 6th guep white belt thing. The Chung Do Kwan still has those records.

and some time after that he startedtraining with Ki Wang Kim where it's said GM Kee learned the bulk of the Hyungs that are in the Tang Soo Do system today,

My understanding is that GM KIM Ki Whang had a good relationship with GM HONG Chong Soo (Moo Duk Kwan #10) and would visit GM Hong's dojang and teach there. I believe GM Hwang met GM Kim through GM Hong. By the way, GM HWANG Kee's last name is Hwang, not Kee.


this is waht I've come to learn after all these years,andwhile it's great learning different history I'll still say does it really matter any more who started what first, that was in 1945 most us wheren't born yet, and now it's 2012 we're all so far removed from that period time.

It matters if someone truly wishes to understand what happened, and why. It's always better to have a clear picture, rather than a muddled one.
 

IRISH KMA

White Belt
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
I have intended to ask this question for awhile but was afraid it would turn into the proverbial mud slinging thread. My question is how much formal training did GM Hwang Kee really have and was he experienced enough to start his own kwan? The reason I ask is because I come from a Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do background. I have always figured there had to be something there when you see some of the skilled martial artist that it has turned out.
 

kbarrett

Orange Belt
Joined
Nov 23, 2011
Messages
61
Reaction score
3
Puunui, I stand corrected the Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do was started in 1944, my mistake.
As for GM Hwang Kee's experience and starting his own Kwan, I'd yes he did have enough experience even though his history is some what cloudy. We know he trained in China learning Yang style Tai Chi chuan, and maybe had some training in shaloin Long Fist and he did open a dojang teaching his own style calling it Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan which failed and closed, some time bewteen then and 1947 he spend time learn Okinawan Karate under GM Won Kuk Lee at the Chung Do Kwan which he only reciveved a 6th gup ranking, along with train with others who had learn Okinawan Karate and reopened his dojang in 1947 calling it Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, whether his rank was legit or not I'm not so sure, the Moo Duk Kwan has produced some very good martial artist of the last 50 plus year so he must have done something right. So did he have enough experince yes, was he a Grand Master yes, he was successful in creating something that has last for over 60 plus years and is still going strong. Ken
 

puunui

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,378
Reaction score
26
My question is how much formal training did GM Hwang Kee really have and was he experienced enough to start his own kwan? The reason I ask is because I come from a Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do background. I have always figured there had to be something there when you see some of the skilled martial artist that it has turned out.

We do not really know how much formal instruction he received. I can tell you that at least by the late 50's/early 60's, GM Hwang was considered a terrific martial artist. One of my teachers did his military service in at the Korean Air Force Academy as a martial arts instructor. GM Hwang was the head instructor there, so for three years, my teacher got personal instruction from GM Hwang. My instructor said that GM Hwang was excellent, and that he learned many things from him.
 

MasterPistella

Yellow Belt
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
56
Reaction score
2
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
GM Hwang was an awesome man. He used to spend a lot of time at our school. C S Kim's before Master Kim left the federation. This is the question & it's a matter of opinion. Did he study with or under GM Lee? He taught Lee some things, Lee taught him some things. This I got from someone who was there. His formal training, by his own admission was very limited. He learned by watching Tae Kyun & only had a couple years of Tai Chi training. Despite that, he became one of the greatest martial artists of his time.
 

Obi1

White Belt
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Thank you for that. So one mystery solved, the Moo Duk Kwan Jang Kwon and what it looks like. Can I ask you, what is Master Peter Paik's father's name? Is that GM PAIK Sang Kee? If so, he used to attend USTU events and meetings so I got to at least bow to him.

Yes!!! That is correct!!!
 

Obi1

White Belt
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
You know what. I never did get his first name. lol I only ever heard him refered to as "Dr. Paik" Even GM Roberts & his wife called him that. I'll have to ask. I would bet that is it tho. Master Peter Paik's "real" name is Sang.

Jack, my Korean name is Sung.
 

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,035
Reaction score
1,664
Location
Huber Heights, OH
Whoever Jack is, he hasnt been in this discussion for going on 6 years now. Just sayin.
night-of-the-living-thread.jpg


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

dvcochran

Grandmaster
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Messages
7,047
Reaction score
2,296
Location
Southeast U.S.
I dont have time to read all the responses right now, but im surprised at the mention of CMA, which implies kung fu in my mind. What are the kung fu influences. I can tell the okinawan influence, i took karate for a bit and some of it looks related.

Secondly, i was watching on youtube a demonstration of the first basic form. In it, after the low block, the practitioner would raise his hand up and straight to shoulder level then punch with the other hand. Both hands usually were clenched in a fist. What is the purpose of this move? It dosent look like a block, or anything else. Is it a badly executed punch? I saw several online doing that form the exact same way.

Ok lol ima have to start a new thread about my other questions regarding the art, and its techniques.
I would need to see the move but it partially sounds like bad form. Raising the ready hand is to have the Um Yong or Yin Yang in the punch. You are "pulling" with the ready hand as hard are you are "pushing" with the punching hand. Also intended to help use the whole body. It is annoying to watch any style practitioner do a shoulder level punch. Totally dysfunctional. I always tell students to use the shoulder as a gauge; middle punch below the shoulder targeting the solar plexus, high punch above the shoulder targeting the philtrum. My GM (Seoung Eui Shin, www.mastershinonline.com) is deeply rooted in TSD.
 

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
231
Location
Kingwood Texas
I visited the Soo Bak Do Hwe headquarters of GM HWANG Kee back in 1989 or 1990 when it first opened. We watched a class, and the students spent almost the entire class practicing going from a joonbi position stepping forward into a front stance low block. There was no mat, and instead they trained on a beautiful hardwood floor. I don't think it was a spring loaded floor, because when they moved into the front stance low block, the floor made a hard ungiving sound. They did look good doing that front stance low block, I must say.
Sounds like my classes in the 70's, only it was tile.
 

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
231
Location
Kingwood Texas
I would need to see the move but it partially sounds like bad form. Raising the ready hand is to have the Um Yong or Yin Yang in the punch. You are "pulling" with the ready hand as hard are you are "pushing" with the punching hand. Also intended to help use the whole body. It is annoying to watch any style practitioner do a shoulder level punch. Totally dysfunctional. I always tell students to use the shoulder as a gauge; middle punch below the shoulder targeting the solar plexus, high punch above the shoulder targeting the philtrum.

My GM (Seoung Eui Shin, www.mastershinonline.com) is deeply rooted in TSD.
So your GM may teach TSD, but called it Taekwondo.
I maybe wrong but I think my GM taught TSD /MDK, but called it Taekwondo
 

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
231
Location
Kingwood Texas
The true history and origins of TSD have been best to death, as one person said it all depends on who you believe. GM Won Kuk Lee learned (Okinawan Karate) Shotokan while living in Japan, he brought Shotokan back with him to Korea in 1944 but he called his style Tang Soo Do, then in 1945 he founded the Chung Do Kwan, at that point he arts was known as Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do. GM Hwang Keen went to China where he learn Tai chi chaun and train in Sholin Long Fist, returning to Korea he opened a dojang calling his atr Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, which failed and he close it. During this time it is reported that he train with MG Won Kuk Lee in Tang Soo Do and in 1947 reopened his dojang calling style Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan. I believe it was in the 50's mabe the 60's he started the slow change to become Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan after he found the Muye Dobo Tonji which really influenced him a lot. This is what I have come to learn, again there are so many different stories I wonder whether it really matters any more. Ken
I have read he found the wooden book in 1957 and then stared changing Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.
 

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
231
Location
Kingwood Texas
I think GM Hwang learned tai chi in Manchuria but not long fist. There is a form called jang kwon which is part of the moo duk kwan curriculum, but we established that GM Hwang Kee learned jang kwon from GM YOON Byung In.


I don't think he studied long fist, I have studied long fist, I don't see long fist in TSD.
 

Latest Discussions

Top