What is TSD history?

Dirty Dog

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So your GM may teach TSD, but called it Taekwondo.
I maybe wrong but I think my GM taught TSD /MDK, but called it Taekwondo

Very easy to determine. What forms did you learn?

I have read he found the wooden book in 1957 and then stared changing Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan.

He didn't find the book. It was in a museum. The story is interesting, but it seems unlikely that it could have changed the art all that much. I have a copy. It's like <1% about unarmed combat.
 

Bruce7

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Very easy to determine. What forms did you learn?



He didn't find the book. It was in a museum. The story is interesting, but it seems unlikely that it could have changed the art all that much. I have a copy. It's like <1% about unarmed combat.
From the videos I have watch the forms were Tang So Do ki cho hyung il bu basic forms, after 40 years I don't remember the names just the movements.
I have to see them to know if I have done them.
 
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Dirty Dog

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From the videos I have watch the forms were Tang So Do ki cho hyung il bu basic forms, after 40 years I don't remember the names just the movements.
Varies H and I forms don't remember the names

That's weird. Kicho means basic. Bu is another term used for basic (or junior). Hyung is a word for forms.
So they were called basic form basic basic forms.
From what I know, the kicho forms are far more generic, and are generally the ones taught to brand new students. What did you learn later? Pinan? Palgwae? SongAhm?

Just as an FYI, you can easily find copies of the Muje Dobo Tongji (the book...) and see for yourself. It's interesting, but, as I said, I don't see it making any significant change. I suspect that the whole Soo Bahk Do change was motivated more by a desire to create ties to ancient Korea. Much like the silly claims that TKD is a 2000 year old Korean art.
 
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Bruce7

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That's weird. Kicho means basic. Bu is another term used for basic. Hyung is a word for forms.
So they were called basic form basic basic forms.
From what I know, the kicho forms are far more generic, and are generally the ones taught to brand new students. What did you learn later? Pinan? Palgwae? SongAhm?
It will take a while I will look at the forms tommorow and tell you which ones I learn. I know it was not SongAhm I am learning them now.
 

Bruce7

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From videos these forms look familiar

Basic Forms

1 Ki cho Hyung iL Bu
2 KI CHO HYUNG E BU
3 Ki Cho Sam Bu

4 ? Have not found
5? Have not found

Pinan - Pyung
1 Pyung Ahn Cho Dan
2 Pyung Ahn Ee Dan
3 Pyung Ahn Sam Dan
4 Pyung Ahn Sa Dan
5 Pyung Ahn Oh Dan

Others I have not found Yet

 
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dvcochran

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So your GM may teach TSD, but called it Taekwondo.
I maybe wrong but I think my GM taught TSD /MDK, but called it Taekwondo
Like you, my Grand Master, Seoung Eui Shin has taught TKD since coming to the U.S. in 1874. He is deeply rooted in the Moo Duk Kwan and is high rank in Xingyiquan Kung Fu. His Kung Fu combines with our TKD stances making them deeper and longer than most.
 

Bruce7

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Most of the Taekwondo I have seen looks a little different from what I was taught.
I have been trying to find out what I was taught in the early 1970's.
Karate was on the windows and I was told it was Taekwondo, some students said it was Moo Duk Kwan.
So l have been trying to get information on my Grandmaster Saejin Jack Hwang.

From my reading he put karate on the windows because people did not know what Taekwondo was.
He taught Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan in the 1960's, but sometime later when he join the ITF
and later WTF he changed the name to Taekwondo.

In 1995 Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan changed to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan.
So I guess I was taught Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan, which is now Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan
It is hard to find your roots, because the names keep changing.

Then again I discovered Hwang Kee read a 400 page wooded book and changed Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan in 1957.
So my GM would have been teaching the Pre 1957 Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan.
So I guess I was taught something that does not exist any more.
I am such a dinosaur.

Does any one know if Hwang Kee taught Saejin Hwang?
I have not found it written.
In 1932 Saejin Hwang was born in Korea. Since he did not come to the states until 1957,
it is only logical one would think he was taught by Hwang Kee.
 

dvcochran

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My current research shows Moo Duk Kwan TSD started in 1949 by Hwang Kee. I suspect that will be disputed though. I do not have any references to Saejin Hwang.

Hope this helps.
 

Dirty Dog

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From videos these forms look familiar

Pinan - Pyung
1 Pyung Ahn Cho Dan
2 Pyung Ahn Ee Dan
3 Pyung Ahn Sam Dan
4 Pyung Ahn Sa Dan
5 Pyung Ahn Oh Dan



Those forms are taught in Tang Soo Do schools.

Most of the Taekwondo I have seen looks a little different from what I was taught.
I have been trying to find out what I was taught in the early 1970's.
Karate was on the windows and I was told it was Taekwondo, some students said it was Moo Duk Kwan.

Karate was often used for it's familiarity, and is still used by the general population as a generic term for all martial arts.
Taekwondo is the name of the system. Moo Duk Kwan is the name of the school/style/organization.

He taught Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan in the 1960's, but sometime later when he join the ITF

Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, not Tang Soo.

and later WTF he changed the name to Taekwondo.

Kukkiwon, not WTF.

Then again I discovered Hwang Kee read a 400 page wooded book and changed Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan in 1957.

I don't know how many pages were in the original. My copy is about 400 pages, but it's paperback book size, not 8.5x11 full size.
The section on unarmed combat amounts to not quite 16 pages of that, and shows nothing remotely resembling forms or anything of the sort. It's pretty much a description of a ritual dance that competitors use to greet each other.
The rest of the book covers various weapons, on horseback or on foot. Some of those sections include what could be considered forms specific to the weapon under discussion.
There's really no reason to think this book did anything to change TSD. It did, however, give an opportunity to form a connection to pre-occupation Korea. Which was very important to Koreans of that day.

So my GM would have been teaching the Pre 1957 Tang Soo Moo Duk Kwan.
So I guess I was taught something that does not exist any more.
I am such a dinosaur.

Sure it exists. There are still TSD schools all over the world. There may not be one in the strip mall down the road from you, but they certainly still exist.
And there's no real big difference between TSD MDK and Soo Bahk Do MDK.

Does any one know if Hwang Kee taught Saejin Hwang?
I have not found it written.
In 1932 Saejin Hwang was born in Korea. Since he did not come to the states until 1957,
it is only logical one would think he was taught by Hwang Kee.

The logic doesn't follow. GM HWANG had several schools scattered along a rail line. Each school had instructors.
 

Bruce7

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Those forms are taught in Tang Soo Do schools.



Karate was often used for it's familiarity, and is still used by the general population as a generic term for all martial arts.
Taekwondo is the name of the system. Moo Duk Kwan is the name of the school/style/organization.



Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, not Tang Soo.



Kukkiwon, not WTF.



I don't know how many pages were in the original. My copy is about 400 pages, but it's paperback book size, not 8.5x11 full size.
The section on unarmed combat amounts to not quite 16 pages of that, and shows nothing remotely resembling forms or anything of the sort. It's pretty much a description of a ritual dance that competitors use to greet each other.
The rest of the book covers various weapons, on horseback or on foot. Some of those sections include what could be considered forms specific to the weapon under discussion.
There's really no reason to think this book did anything to change TSD. It did, however, give an opportunity to form a connection to pre-occupation Korea. Which was very important to Koreans of that day.



Sure it exists. There are still TSD schools all over the world. There may not be one in the strip mall down the road from you, but they certainly still exist.
And there's no real big difference between TSD MDK and Soo Bahk Do MDK.



The logic doesn't follow. GM HWANG had several schools scattered along a rail line. Each school had instructors.

Thank you for your reply , it has been helpful. Sorry for misspelling should have used TSD/MDK.
My first Martial Art School was the strong base from which I learn other MA. I needed to know what the true name of that Art and Style was. You have help confirm the true name of my first art and style.
Your information on the book is helpful and logical. People still write the myth that GM Hwang change TSD after reading the book.
Thank you for explaining the Myth.
People also say GM Hwang learn Long Fist while in China. Since I train in Long Fist, I think the Long Fist think is a Myth also.
He may have learn Kung Fu, But I don't think it was Long Fist.

I am training in Taekwondo right now, I have a very good teacher and since it is less than 10 minutes away I am there almost everyday.
Someday I want to train in TSD/MDK again, it like your first love.
The problem is the school is 1 1/2 to 2 hrs in Houston Traffic one way. So it could take 4 hrs just to get to school and back.
 

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