What is this Stance Called?

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Yes, they are completely different things in purpose and execution. You and others brought up leg crossing in relation to fencing and the "fleche" seemed to be the topic. I meant no similarity other than this. Maybe I executed a fleche, "falling" into a wrong assumption as to your reference. Kosa dachi is, as you said, a rooted stance while the fleche is more of a radical movement. I think we're on the same page, just started out of synch to start.
Enjoyed the falling pun. But yes, two totally different things, but the whole rooting portion and the twisting is what separates it, and why it threw people off when I did it during fencing. Seeing a fleche would be totally normal.
 

JowGaWolf

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Image Above stepping backwards into a cross stance to attack my brother. In the video. I untwist into a punch but I didn't really go for it because there would be no way for me to pull the power if I needed to. In order to pull this technique off and be successful I would have to go full speed and with speed will come some power.

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Image Above stepping backwards into a cross stance to attack my brother. Here the cross stance camouflages my advance. Instead. of untwisting into a punch, I'm going to stay in this position and bring my right leg around in a circular motion to sweep his front leg.


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Image Above stepping forward into a cross stance to attack my brother. I attack my brother who defends my attack at the time. While he's occupied I "Steal a step" and take advantage of the opening he has given me. With a kick to his ribs.
 

JowGaWolf

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I forgot to mention that I think of the cross stance as falling into 2 characteristics
1. Cross stance for striking
2. Cross stance for grappling

I think of most stances like. The purpose and focus of the stance changes greatly depending on which category it fits under. The rule for stances in the striking world may be invalid in the grappling world.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Rika Usami does mention its name but I cant catch it. Does anyone know?


View attachment 28631
It is known by a variety of names as others have mentioned. In Isshinryu, it can be called Kosa Dachi or Cross Stance. It is seen in Chinto kata, which was taken from Shorinryu. I have also heard it called a Reverse T Stance, as if you look at it, it's kind of the opposite of a T Stance (not quite a Cat Stance).

It is a very stable stance for resisting a pull from the front as the correct form of this stance (in Isshinryu) is to lock the rear knee into the back of the leading knee as see in the photo you included and the body is slightly twisted (note the knot in her obi is over her right knee, not straight ahead). The only difference I can see between the photo you showed and the way we use this stance in Isshinryu is that the fist that is in a middle block would instead be a down block. The other hand is as we would do it in Chinto kata; an upward-facing palm fist held at about mid-level.

We frequently test this stance by having the karateka get into the stance, grabbing their leading arm and attempting to pull them forward. If they can lock into their stance, they can resist a stronger pull than if they were just standing in a traditional stance such as Heiko Dachi.

It feels very alien at first, but in time it becomes a very natural stance to hit and get out of by uncoiling the body. I find it comfortable and can stand in this stance for quite some time.
 

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In Kyuki-do, this cross-step is used in one of our FORMS as a transitional block between whatever-it-was we just did and whatever-it-is we're gonna do. It's actual employment is accomplished by slightly leaning forward over the front leg with both forearms blocking a roundhouse or other swinging kick. The positioning is only momentary as the back foot is then moved toward the opponent and then do your own kick/punch/block. Unless you are terribly slow, the opponent can't sweep you since one of their legs is "in the air" already and occupied with your block. By stepping forward this way, it actually allows you to move slightly sideways with the rear foot and give a better angle for your next move. As I stated at the first, it is part of a FORM.
 

Bill Mattocks

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In Kyuki-do, this cross-step is used in one of our FORMS as a transitional block between whatever-it-was we just did and whatever-it-is we're gonna do. It's actual employment is accomplished by slightly leaning forward over the front leg with both forearms blocking a roundhouse or other swinging kick. The positioning is only momentary as the back foot is then moved toward the opponent and then do your own kick/punch/block. Unless you are terribly slow, the opponent can't sweep you since one of their legs is "in the air" already and occupied with your block. By stepping forward this way, it actually allows you to move slightly sideways with the rear foot and give a better angle for your next move. As I stated at the first, it is part of a FORM.
It can also disguise a kick with the rear foot in kumite. I've seen people fight out of the so-called Chinto stance. It works when done right. I'll say I've done it myself in tournament and got a point with it.
 

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We used to call it the "don't get caught with your feet crossed stance."

But we still did it ourselves at times.
 
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Gyakuto

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It is known by a variety of names as others have mentioned. In Isshinryu, it can be called Kosa Dachi or Cross Stance. It is seen in Chinto kata, which was taken from Shorinryu. I have also heard it called a Reverse T Stance, as if you look at it, it's kind of the opposite of a T Stance (not quite a Cat Stance).

It is a very stable stance for resisting a pull from the front as the correct form of this stance (in Isshinryu) is to lock the rear knee into the back of the leading knee as see in the photo you included and the body is slightly twisted (note the knot in her obi is over her right knee, not straight ahead). The only difference I can see between the photo you showed and the way we use this stance in Isshinryu is that the fist that is in a middle block would instead be a down block. The other hand is as we would do it in Chinto kata; an upward-facing palm fist held at about mid-level.

We frequently test this stance by having the karateka get into the stance, grabbing their leading arm and attempting to pull them forward. If they can lock into their stance, they can resist a stronger pull than if they were just standing in a traditional stance such as Heiko Dachi.

It feels very alien at first, but in time it becomes a very natural stance to hit and get out of by uncoiling the body. I find it comfortable and can stand in this stance for quite some time.
I recall it in Wado Ryus Wanshu kata too! Again a transitory stance.
 

_Simon_

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I recall it in Wado Ryus Wanshu kata too! Again a transitory stance.
Oh cool have never seen Wado's version of Enpi! Have added mae geris and a much more dynamic move up the middle section with the rising/downward pressing blocks... fascinating!
 
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Gyakuto

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Oh cool have never seen Wado's version of Enpi! Have added mae geris and a much more dynamic move up the middle section with the rising/downward pressing blocks... fascinating!
Its curious how Wado Ryu tends to retain the old Okinawa kata names and indeed many of the stances are very similar to the Okinawa versions when Shotokan version are very different (Wado Ryu founder Hironori Otsuka, was one of the top students of Funakoshi Gichin). I realise Funakoshi was trying to remove Karate from its Okinawa/Chinese origins and make it appear more Japanese, but Otsuka chose not to do this, perhaps assuming the addition of elements of Japanese Shindo Yoshinori Ryu Jujutsu would Japanise his new style sufficiently.
 

isshinryuronin

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Its curious how Wado Ryu tends to retain the old Okinawa kata names and indeed many of the stances are very similar to the Okinawa versions when Shotokan version are very different (Wado Ryu founder Hironori Otsuka, was one of the top students of Funakoshi Gichin). I realise Funakoshi was trying to remove Karate from its Okinawa/Chinese origins and make it appear more Japanese, but Otsuka chose not to do this, perhaps assuming the addition of elements of Japanese Shindo Yoshinori Ryu Jujutsu would Japanise his new style sufficiently.
Otsuka trained with Funakoshi in the 1920's and broke with him in the early 1930's. This, I think, was before most of the kata names were changed to the Japanese versions - about the same time Otsuka was making his own way. It's possible that he retained the older names of the kata to further distance himself from Funakoshi and Shotokan. He also studied with others, such as Mabuni (who didn't at that time?) whose style also largely retained the Okinawan kata names
 

Star Dragon

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In Kenpo, a front crossover or a back crossover can be used for crossing the gap, combined with a hand technique to draw the opponent's guard up, and followed by a kick. It's a very surprising kind of maneuver.
 

punisher73

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Its curious how Wado Ryu tends to retain the old Okinawa kata names and indeed many of the stances are very similar to the Okinawa versions when Shotokan version are very different (Wado Ryu founder Hironori Otsuka, was one of the top students of Funakoshi Gichin). I realise Funakoshi was trying to remove Karate from its Okinawa/Chinese origins and make it appear more Japanese, but Otsuka chose not to do this, perhaps assuming the addition of elements of Japanese Shindo Yoshinori Ryu Jujutsu would Japanise his new style sufficiently.

Otsuka also studied Japanese JJ styles and incorporated them. There is a story that I have seen passed on in Wado-Ryu circles, not sure if it is more apocryphal in nature or true. But, the story goes that during a class/demonstration, Choki Motobu had a Judoka get a grip on Funakoshi and was told to get out of it with your "basic kata" (insulting Funakoshi's level of expertise). Funakoshi was unable to break the grip and was thrown. Otsuka then took up the challenge and could do it with his knowledge of Judo/JJ.

Otsuka started to look to more combat function and emphasize kumite, which Funakoshi was not a fan of. This is what strained their relationship and Otsuka kept exploring other arts to incorporate into his approach based on what he felt was better combat applicability.
 
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isshinryuronin

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In Kenpo, a front crossover or a back crossover can be used for crossing the gap, combined with a hand technique to draw the opponent's guard up, and followed by a kick. It's a very surprising kind of maneuver.
You're a little off-track here.

What you're describing is simply stepping in the bow stance to change distance as its main function. The topic is a specific stance (no distance change required) whose very nature provides function such as bracing against a pull and able to provide torque for various applications as well as slipping a strike when pivoted into. It may resemble the halfway point in a crossover step but is a slightly different animal, mostly because it is rooted and locked.

It's not "a very surprising kind of maneuver" as it's a basic and very common tactic found in many styles' sparring. For those with experience, it's a rather slow setup and telegraphs its intention. More common and faster would be a shuffle step where the back foot comes up to the front, but not so far as crossing over. This is often done as a skipping motion to further speed it up and was used to great effect by Joe Lewis to land his side thrust kick.

Don't take this reply in a defensive manner as your post suggests limited experience and there is some risk in that :). Part of the fun in MA is discovering its subtleties and variety.
 

Star Dragon

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You're a little off-track here.

What you're describing is simply stepping in the bow stance to change distance as its main function.

Not so. What I was describing was a setup for a pretty sneaky attack - not a simple step.

The topic is a specific stance (no distance change required) whose very nature provides function such as bracing against a pull and able to provide torque for various applications as well as slipping a strike when pivoted into. It may resemble the halfway point in a crossover step but is a slightly different animal, mostly because it is rooted and locked.

Every stance is transitional (even a basic fighting stance, if you think about it). I am well aware of the types of application you are describing, of course. Specifically in Kenpo, we are differentiating between a crossover stance and a twist stance to cover the various possibilities.

I was simply outlining another application for what is called kosa-dachi or kake-dachi in the Japanese Karate styles I studied back in the day. Apart from kata, where it is commonly seen, it is not generally used in modern Karate much. However, kenpoists use it all the time - which might be of interest to some other posters here.

It's not "a very surprising kind of maneuver" as it's a basic and very common tactic found in many styles' sparring.

There may be some other arts employing that kind of maneuver as well, but I don't think it's "a very common tactic" overall.

For those with experience, it's a rather slow setup and telegraphs its intention.

Actually, it often takes practitioners of the many styles that don't include it in their own curriculum by surprise. That is, when combined with the kind of feint I mentioned (typically a backfist or a vertical punch).

More common and faster would be a shuffle step where the back foot comes up to the front, but not so far as crossing over.

Correct, but that version covers less distance.

This is often done as a skipping motion to further speed it up and was used to great effect by Joe Lewis to land his side thrust kick.

Don't take this reply in a defensive manner as your post suggests limited experience and there is some risk in that :).

Oh thanks for the patronizing ad hominem! I doubt that you are in a position to judge my level of experience based on a single post. Even if I tell you that I am a second-generation Ed Parker student, what does this mean to you? I won't go down this road.

Part of the fun in MA is discovering its subtleties and variety.

A prerequisite for this would be an open mind, though - the proverbial "empty cup". ;)
 

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isshinryuronin

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Even if I tell you that I am a second-generation Ed Parker student, what does this mean to you?
It means you're still missing several of my points. I've based my posts on the stance Gyakuto showed in the photo he posted when starting this thread.
Correct, but that version covers less distance.
True, but to use the X-over step gives too much time for the opponent to counter (feint or no feint) unless we are talking about lower-level belts. An experienced fighter will work in closer before launching a speedy skip/shuffle side kick.

Don't know how long you trained as a 2nd gen student. I trained directly with Ed Parker and ran an EPKK school in Southern Cal in the 70's.
 

Star Dragon

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It means you're still missing several of my points. I've based my posts on the stance Gyakuto showed in the photo he posted when starting this thread.

Hey... So did I! :)

True, but to use the X-over step gives too much time for the opponent to counter (feint or no feint) unless we are talking about lower-level belts.

I usually make reference to the average streetfighter.

An experienced fighter will work in closer before launching a speedy skip/shuffle side kick.

This kind of maneuver isn't limited to the side kick at all. A variety of kicks can be performed not only from a shuffle, but also from a front or back crossover stance.

Don't know how long you trained as a 2nd gen student. I trained directly with Ed Parker and ran an EPKK school in Southern Cal in the 70's.

Good for you!

Alas, the frequent bickering about the qualification of a particular practitioner or their methods is exactly what is tearing the Kenpo community apart. Let's stay on topic, please...
 

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