What is the most effective?

[Steve]

As I said, in BJJ, it is "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu", that much is definitively correct... however....

If it's a Japanese art (BJJ isn't), then it's Jujutsu. As far as your name, Steve, that's also not really correct... commonly, if you're speaking in a different language, you are able to (in cases, encouraged to) alter your name to suit that language. In Japanese, my name is クリス(Kurisu), not Chris. In French, it's Christophe. You may be American, but you're not dealing with English at that point.

No it's not. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is a Brazilian grappling art, focusing on ground work, but jiujitsu is not necessarily that. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is one subset of BJJ.

No, it's not. It is a Japanese loan-word. Same as sushi... or, are you going to suggest that, when you have sushi in an American based Japanese restaurant, it's no longer a Japanese word?

What is has become is a Brazilian-ified (hmm, not sure if that works...) version of the Japanese term (note: not a Portuguese version), and has come to represent (in this instance) the body of systems and approaches for what is known as BJJ. And, in that sense, it's spelt correctly. But to claim that it's not a Japanese word is just, well... wrong.

Okay. Hold on. If you choose to alter your name, that's one thing. But, one's given name is just that. Your name is Christopher. My name is Stephen. I go by Steve.

Ultimately, though, it seems that names weren't a perfect analogy. Etymology is an interesting field of study, and English is a complex language with many influences. When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, he brought a strong French influence into our language. Many English words have a French root, and while one could say that they were "borrowed," that in no way means that the word now is the same as the French word. In some cases, the English word no longer means precisely what the French word did (or does.) He and his court are largely responsible for bringing us from Middle English into the English that more closely resembles the language we all speak today.

For example, there are many words we use every day in English. The words are English words and have English meanings, even though these words came from old King William and those pesky Normans. Cinema is a common English word, taken from the French word cinematographe, which was a term taken from ancient Greek (kinema).

Or what about the term, "a la mode?" In English, the derivative does not mean the same thing as in French. In America, specifically, "a la mode" refers to adding scoop of ice cream to a piece of pie.

"Amateur" is another English word with roots in French. In the French language, it's a much more general term for someone who loves an activity or does it "for the love of" it. In American English, the term is much more specific and used as the synonym for a professional. It typically refers to someone who is not paid, but can also refer to someone who isn't very good at the activity. The word is an English word. It's pronounced differently than it would be in French, and it has a distinct definition that is not the same as its root.

Sushi is indeed an American word borrowed from the Japanese, but I would suggest that American Sushi is NOT what you would typically find in Japan. In America, the term "sushi" refers to a uniquely American experience that overlaps with the Japanese experience in some ways. One is not better than or worse than the other. But they are different, and in America, if you went to a sushi restaurant expecting a very Japanese experience, you would be disappointed in the same way you would be expecting actual Chinese food in a Chinese restaurant.

So, in this way, sushi said in America is an American word used to describe an Americanized dining experience.

Also, if anything, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the subset of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. While it's true that Oswaldo Fadda lineage is alive and well, all but a very, very few Jiu Jitsu black belts trace their lineage in some way back through the Gracies. In modern usage, most people use the term Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to indicate that they are not directly affiliated with the Gracie family. However, BJJ... particularly in America, stems from GJJ and not the other way around.

Finally, Chris, have you ever see this famous painting by Rene Magritte? It's called the Treachery of Images. The caption, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe," is an integral part of the piece. Translated, it means, "This is not a pipe."



This painting came to mind as we discuss symbols. One might say that it is clearly a pipe, but it's not. It's a picture, a painting. And, really, this is even more removed. It's a digital copy of a painting of a pipe. But it's still not a pipe. In the same way, Jiu Jitsu might seem to be a Japanese word, but it's not. Heck, jujutsu isn't even a Japanese word, nor is this:

View attachment $j_jiu_jitsu.jpg

These are symbols that stand for words which mean something in the language in which they are spoken. In Brazil, if you say jiu jitsu, it doesn't mean something Japanese. It means something Brazilian. And the spoken word is itself a symbol for the thing to which it refers.

 

[Mr. President]

Look, I'm usually one of the first to call out against the mistransliteration of 柔術, however that's just not the case here. The only time you really have to ensure that it's correct is when the system/teacher is making a claim to be a Japanese art (which, although derived from them, BJJ doesn't claim to be). It really, really is "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu".

Hmmm.... sorry, but no. Just because the Brazilians took a Japanese martial art and gave it a Brazilian twist, does not mean that the words are no longer Japanese. Same way that if the Americans created their own Krav Maga system and called it "American Krav Maga", that does NOT mean that the words "Krav" and "Maga" are now American words, or English words. These are still Hebrew words.

Brazilians kept calling it JJ because their version of it doesn't have strikes at all, so it's still considered "gentle". Since "Ju" and "Jutsu" translates into "Gentle art", the Brazilians can call it "Brazilian Arte Suave", which translates exactly the same way.

Yes, the Japanese would probably understand if you pronounce like the Brazilians do, as "Jiu Jitsu", simply because they're aware of the world around them, but "Jiu" is still a mispronunciation of "Ju" and "Jitsu" is still a mispronunciation of "Jutsu".

For one thing, Judo is Jujutsu... it was originally called Kano-ha Jujutsu. BJJ is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Completely and accurately.

Judo and Jujutsu are distinct enough that they are considered completely separate arts, and have been quite a while now. BJJ techniques were developed from watching and refining the martial art of Judo, not the martial art of Jujutsu, even if the term "Jujutsu" doesn't indicate one single method but rather an approach.

Not that I really care that much, or at all. You can call it whatever you want. I'm just stating technical observations.

That's a problem? Really?

It is for the guy who started the thread, because he specifically said he wants to learn these arts from a "street effective" standpoint. He's the one I responded to.

The honing of technique and methodology through competition has been nothing but benefit to BJJ

This, while valid, does not address the concern of the guy who opened the thread, and like I said, I was responding to him.

I'd say that's almost completely opposite to the reality, myself. They focus almost entirely on how to apply the techniques... you're just expecting it to happen in a context that isn't what these systems deal with. And, really, that's your issue, not the arts.

I've visited more than one BJJ school in my vicinity and did encounter the problem I was saying. In the local sporting center, they offer BJJ, so I spoke to the instructor and asked him about his approach to street situations and does he address it. To his credit, he fully admitted that the answer is no and he's teaching it from a "fitness, sport, fun for the whole family" kind of approach, and not survival.

He did refer me to a friend of his who teaches in a close by city, but he too did not have any "street survival" scenarios in his curriculum. Only people rolling around, passing guards, applying chokes etc on a mat.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist in BJJ. I know for a fact that it does. The Gracies have a comprehensive program regarding these scenarios. They too, by the way, agree with my concern, as you can see here:

And here:

Except that the problems you're identifying aren't actually problems... nor do they have the drawbacks you're trying to claim.

My point is still very very valid. You have sporting schools and self defense schools, and I know this is true because I've been in both. A martial art that emphasizes real life events and has no competition, will only have schools that address self defense. With BJJ, that is not the case. I'm not saying it's "good" or "bad". I'm just saying it's true. When I said "concern" before, I was referring, again, to the concerns of the guy who opened the thread.

That depends entirely on what you're after, of course. And if you're just after self defence, I wouldn't suggest a sporting system...

Nor would I. That was my point.

it's just as likely that the students might think they're learning self defence

You can simply ask them if there was any attention paid to real life scenarios.

 

[oaktree]

Hi Steve
Jiujitsu is a phonetic sound for jujutsu though
Erroneous. Hepburn one of the first to romaji
Japanese into English in the late 1880's called it
Jujutsu. Hepburn translation dictionary is regarded as
The standard for nonjapanese translations.
the thing is in order for it to be a japanese word it must
Be able to phonetically be able to be spelled in hiragana katakana or kanji. Jiujitsu can be but it won't mean anything martial related. However hepburn romaji does accurately use a long u in ju thus allowing for it to be written correctly in hiragana.
if you want to call your art jiujutsu thats fine even though
What the Gracies are doing has no legit trace to any koryu and can only trace back to judo. I think we will have to disagree maybe someone like Karl Friday can weigh in on something like this.

 

[oaktree]

I just noticed Steve you
Put the kanji up. Now why not put the hiragana up.

 

[oaktree]

Heres a great article on
Bjj judo and jujutsu.http://web.archive.org/web/20120204191750/http://members.multimania.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

 

[Steve]

Hi Steve
Jiujitsu is a phonetic sound for jujutsu though
Erroneous. Hepburn one of the first to romaji
Japanese into English in the late 1880's called it
Jujutsu. Hepburn translation dictionary is regarded as
The standard for nonjapanese translations.
the thing is in order for it to be a japanese word it must
Be able to phonetically be able to be spelled in hiragana katakana or kanji. Jiujitsu can be but it won't mean anything martial related. However hepburn romaji does accurately use a long u in ju thus allowing for it to be written correctly in hiragana.
if you want to call your art jiujutsu thats fine even though
What the Gracies are doing has no legit trace to any koryu and can only trace back to judo. I think we will have to disagree maybe someone like Karl Friday can weigh in on something like this.

I would agree with you that Jiu Jitsu is a uniquely Brazilian martial art related closely to, but distinct from, modern Judo. I would presume (perhaps mistakenly) that modern BJJ is as closely related to any kind of koryu art as modern Judo. However much that might be.

Regarding phonetic spellings, if we're translating Japanese into English or vice versa, then that's relevant. But Jiu Jitsu doesn't refer to something Japanese. It refers to something Brazilian, and so any romanization of kanji is relevant only as a footnote to discussing the etymology of the term. It's trivia and may be interesting, but has no bearing on the correctness of the modern usage of the word.

 

[Steve]

I just noticed Steve you
Put the kanji up. Now why not put the hiragana up.

Do you think that the scribbles on the page below are jujutsu? じゅうじゅつ

If so, my point wasn't clear. The scribbles on the page above, like the kanji and any other words, are symbols representing words that in turn represent some thing.

 

[oaktree]

I suppose Steve. I guess I'll have to learn to live with that
Like taiji people live with tai chi and karateka have
To listen to korotty. And bjj will have to live with male eroticism undertones...eh better then larping

 

[Steve]

I suppose Steve. I guess I'll have to learn to live with that
Like taiji people live with tai chi and karateka have
To listen to korotty. And bjj will have to live with male eroticism undertones...eh better then larping

Could be just me, but this reads pretty passive aggressive and judgmental.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

My experience in Brazilian Jiujitsu always had a self defense component. Now I agree that is not the norm with everyone but it is the norm with all the schools I have encountered affiliated with most of the Gracies. (mine were initially affiliated with Rorion) Helio Gracie was adamant on teaching the self-defense and the sporting side as were his sons and now grand sons. Heck I have been in the room with Royce showing self-defense moves, just as I learned them from my instructor.


As Steve has mentioned the word jiujitsu is now distinctly Brazilian. A traditionalist may not like it but hey it is, what it is!


Chris fitness is some thing that will always help someone out in self-defense and yes the Gracie's have proven their form of jiujitsu works great in a one on one confrontation whether for self-defense or in competition. A whole heck of a lot of street fights have documented this in brazil. If you want I can send you a video tape of some of them. It is not at it's base a sporting system but a system for personal protection. (that is how the Gracie's see it and how Helio Gracie saw it) Though not all Brazilian Jiujitsu instructors now not affiliated with the Gracie's see it that way!

 

[oaktree]

Hi Steve
I didn't mean it as passive aggressive. I did mean it as tongue in cheek that as martial artist we have to accept what others will think or think in error or misunderstand.
As someone who does classical Koryu I will have to accept that people will call jujutsu jiujitsu just the same that I have to accept people who call taijiquan taichi and
karateka have to accept korotty and even grapplers have to accept the public perception that two grown men together on the floor has male erotic undertones but those aren't my thoughts they are the public opinion.

 

[Steve]

Hi Steve
I didn't mean it as passive aggressive. I did mean it as tongue in cheek that as martial artist we have to accept what others will think or think in error or misunderstand.
As someone who does classical Koryu I will have to accept that people will call jujutsu jiujitsu.

But what you do is not what I do. You do jujutsu. I do Jiu Jitsu. They aren't the same.

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[oaktree]

But what you do is not what I do. You do jujutsu. I do Jiu Jitsu. They aren't the same.

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Which then begs the question what was Irving Hancock
Talking about when writing the book Jiujitsu combat tricks in the early 1900's.

 

[Steve]

Which then begs the question what was Irving Hancock
Talking about when writing the book Jiujitsu combat tricks in the early 1900's.

Does it actually beg the question? I don't think so, or at least, I don't know whether you and I are using the phrase in the same way. Begging the question is a kind of circular logic.

But, if you're asking that question, I'd say the answer is... something else?

We can talk about historic diction. We can discuss contemporary diction. We can even discuss both at the same time. But we should be careful not to confuse the two. Language is like fashion. It ebbs and flows and changes all the time. This is particularly true where other languages enter the mix.

Simply put, over the last 100 years, the vocabulary has settled. And in the year 2014 AD, it's pretty clear that in English, jujutsu is not jiu jitsu. They are loosely related, but the relationship between jiu jitsu and judo is much closer. Australian Rules Football isn't American Football, even though they have similar names and are loosely related. And, most people in the world have no trouble distinguishing the two. In the same way, Jujutsu and Jiu Jitsu aren't the same, and I wonder why you have so much trouble distinguishing them.

Let's talk about your fixation with male eroticism. What's that about?

 

[oaktree]

Hi Steve rather then discuss with you any more as we won't come to anything positive and I rather spend my time training think what you want.

Let's talk about your fixation with male eroticism. What's that about?

Steve what I said was

public perception

Also it was in the term of how I can live with people thinking its jiujitsu just as how karateka have public perception as korotty or public perception of taiji as tai chi.

 

[Steve]

Hi Steve rather then discuss with you any more as we won't come to anything positive and I rather spend my time training think what you want.


Steve what I said was

Also it was in the term of how I can live with people thinking its jiujitsu just as how karateka have public perception as korotty or public perception of taiji as tai chi.

I don't know, oak tree. You say public perception, but your public is definitely different from mine. I've never even heard the term korotty before. And even if someone says tai chi, I don't think it's as horrible as you seem to believe. My mom does tai chi and really likes it. It's really good for her and whether it's called taiji or tai chi, she certainly means no offense.

Is English your first language? I'm wondering if some of the disconnect we are having is in part due to a language barrier.


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[Chris Parker]

What you are describing is one aspect of how BJJ has developed and how it is practiced by a significant percentage of practitioners. It is not the original nor the only way it has developed and is practiced. That's why I said it's a partial truth - it is an accurate observation of how many people train in the art, but it is certainly not universal. With all due respect - I think I have rather a lot more experience in the art than you do and thus a lot more data points to draw upon. I have no doubt that you are correctly describing what you have seen.

Hey Tony,

While not arguing that you have more experience in this field than I do, and also not arguing about the origins or focus of some schools of BJJ, I'd argue about the development not coming from the sporting side of things. Of course, I'm open to hearing about an alternate, can you give me an example of BJJ that has not developed it's methodology through sporting application? The reason I ask is that I can't think of any form that shows the hallmarks of not developing in that fashion... and, to be absolutely clear here, I don't see anything negative about developing through sports at all... as I said, it is what gives BJJ it's sophistication and depth of knowledge on the ground. It's a great thing.

Okay. Hold on. If you choose to alter your name, that's one thing. But, one's given name is just that. Your name is Christopher. My name is Stephen. I go by Steve.

No, it's not about "choosing to alter (my) name", it's that the name changes when spoken in a different language.

Ultimately, though, it seems that names weren't a perfect analogy. Etymology is an interesting field of study, and English is a complex language with many influences. When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, he brought a strong French influence into our language. Many English words have a French root, and while one could say that they were "borrowed," that in no way means that the word now is the same as the French word. In some cases, the English word no longer means precisely what the French word did (or does.) He and his court are largely responsible for bringing us from Middle English into the English that more closely resembles the language we all speak today.

For example, there are many words we use every day in English. The words are English words and have English meanings, even though these words came from old King William and those pesky Normans. Cinema is a common English word, taken from the French word cinematographe, which was a term taken from ancient Greek (kinema).

It's a completely different thing when you're looking at the etymology of a language through the filters of it's source languages (for example, Greek as a basis for most scientific language, Latin for legal language, as well as French, Germanic, Celtic etc for English), and looking at where a loanword comes from. A loanword is brought in independent of the structure and etymology of the language it's being brought into... in other words, if there's no basis in the language from the language the new word is being introduced from, it's a loanword. So, unless you can say how Japanese is a root language of Portuguese, particularly as spoken in Brazil, it's not a true Portuguese word, it's a Japanese word that's been brought in as a loanword.

Or what about the term, "a la mode?" In English, the derivative does not mean the same thing as in French. In America, specifically, "a la mode" refers to adding scoop of ice cream to a piece of pie.

Yeah... you guys certainly have a way with words... it really means "in the style", or "trendy, fashionable"... but hey, I guess adding icecream is fashionable... in a way...

"Amateur" is another English word with roots in French. In the French language, it's a much more general term for someone who loves an activity or does it "for the love of" it. In American English, the term is much more specific and used as the synonym for a professional. It typically refers to someone who is not paid, but can also refer to someone who isn't very good at the activity. The word is an English word. It's pronounced differently than it would be in French, and it has a distinct definition that is not the same as its root.

Sure... but French is a root language for modern English. Japanese is not for Portuguese.

Sushi is indeed an American word borrowed from the Japanese, but I would suggest that American Sushi is NOT what you would typically find in Japan. In America, the term "sushi" refers to a uniquely American experience that overlaps with the Japanese experience in some ways. One is not better than or worse than the other. But they are different, and in America, if you went to a sushi restaurant expecting a very Japanese experience, you would be disappointed in the same way you would be expecting actual Chinese food in a Chinese restaurant.

Seriously? Sushi is an American word? Really?

Look, Steve, I'm not arguing that a word can be applied with slight or larger differences in other cultures, but to say that sushi is an American word because there are sushi restaurants in the US is just plain... hell, I have a bit of trouble finding the word... ludicrous.

So, in this way, sushi said in America is an American word used to describe an Americanized dining experience.

You're missing the point. The experience isn't the thing, it's where the word comes from... and it's a Japanese word.

Also, if anything, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the subset of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. While it's true that Oswaldo Fadda lineage is alive and well, all but a very, very few Jiu Jitsu black belts trace their lineage in some way back through the Gracies. In modern usage, most people use the term Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to indicate that they are not directly affiliated with the Gracie family. However, BJJ... particularly in America, stems from GJJ and not the other way around.

So... although there are other forms of BJJ, other than Gracie, there's the Fadda lineage, there are groups that have grown out from the Gracies, there's the Machado's, BJJ is a subset of Gracie JiuJitsu? Really?

Uh, nope.

Finally, Chris, have you ever see this famous painting by Rene Magritte? It's called the Treachery of Images. The caption, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe," is an integral part of the piece. Translated, it means, "This is not a pipe."

View attachment 18640

This painting came to mind as we discuss symbols. One might say that it is clearly a pipe, but it's not. It's a picture, a painting. And, really, this is even more removed. It's a digital copy of a painting of a pipe. But it's still not a pipe. In the same way, Jiu Jitsu might seem to be a Japanese word, but it's not. Heck, jujutsu isn't even a Japanese word, nor is this:

View attachment 18641

These are symbols that stand for words which mean something in the language in which they are spoken. In Brazil, if you say jiu jitsu, it doesn't mean something Japanese. It means something Brazilian. And the spoken word is itself a symbol for the thing to which it refers.

While I get what you're saying, you're taking it to an extreme where it all loses meaning... the picture is a representation of a pipe, sure, and sure, the written word, whether alphabetical, pictographic, or otherwise, are simply representations of the words, which are simply representations of concepts and ideas, which are simply expressions of internal feelings, which are... really?

The written word is the written word. It's still the word. It's a symbolic representation of the word, but it's also still the word.

As far as "JiuJitsu", if spoken in Brazil not referring to something Japanese, that still doesn't change the fact that it's a Japanese word, mistransliterated, and applied within context to a Brazilian expression of a Japanese art. Hell, you call your uniforms "kimono"... are you going to tell me that that's not a Japanese word either?

Hmmm.... sorry, but no. Just because the Brazilians took a Japanese martial art and gave it a Brazilian twist, does not mean that the words are no longer Japanese. Same way that if the Americans created their own Krav Maga system and called it "American Krav Maga", that does NOT mean that the words "Krav" and "Maga" are now American words, or English words. These are still Hebrew words.

Brazilians kept calling it JJ because their version of it doesn't have strikes at all, so it's still considered "gentle". Since "Ju" and "Jutsu" translates into "Gentle art", the Brazilians can call it "Brazilian Arte Suave", which translates exactly the same way.

Yes, the Japanese would probably understand if you pronounce like the Brazilians do, as "Jiu Jitsu", simply because they're aware of the world around them, but "Jiu" is still a mispronunciation of "Ju" and "Jitsu" is still a mispronunciation of "Jutsu".

Look, I'm agreeing that the origins are Japanese, that BJJ is a Brazilian art derived from a Japanese art, that (when looking at Japanese arts) the transliteration is incorrect, but the resultant art is removed enough that separation has given rise to a different rendering of the term... almost a "Chinese Whispers" thing. Is it "correct" from the point of view of the actual Japanese term? No. However, it can't be ignored that, at the time, it was considered to be, if not the "correct" form, then it was the standard form of rendering the word. BJJ just happens to have kept it.

Judo and Jujutsu are distinct enough that they are considered completely separate arts, and have been quite a while now. BJJ techniques were developed from watching and refining the martial art of Judo, not the martial art of Jujutsu, even if the term "Jujutsu" doesn't indicate one single method but rather an approach.

Judo and Jujutsu are distinct the same way each different Jujutsu system is distinct from the others... the way Takenouchi Ryu is different to Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, is different to Yagyu Shingan Ryu, is different to Sho Sho Ryu, is different to Takagi Ryu, is different to Sekiguchi Ryu, is different to Asayama Ichiden Ryu, is different to Kito Ryu, is different to Hakko Ryu, is different to, well, all of the others. BJJ developed from one form of jujutsu... specifically Kano-ha Jujutsu, along with a range of other influences.

Not that I really care that much, or at all. You can call it whatever you want. I'm just stating technical observations.

But ignoring the contextual application of what you're observing.

It is for the guy who started the thread, because he specifically said he wants to learn these arts from a "street effective" standpoint. He's the one I responded to.

Okay.

This, while valid, does not address the concern of the guy who opened the thread, and like I said, I was responding to him.

Which was dealt with at the beginning of the thread.. but okay.

I've visited more than one BJJ school in my vicinity and did encounter the problem I was saying. In the local sporting center, they offer BJJ, so I spoke to the instructor and asked him about his approach to street situations and does he address it. To his credit, he fully admitted that the answer is no and he's teaching it from a "fitness, sport, fun for the whole family" kind of approach, and not survival.

He did refer me to a friend of his who teaches in a close by city, but he too did not have any "street survival" scenarios in his curriculum. Only people rolling around, passing guards, applying chokes etc on a mat.

Which is application, as I said... just application in a particular context.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist in BJJ. I know for a fact that it does. The Gracies have a comprehensive program regarding these scenarios. They too, by the way, agree with my concern, as you can see here:

And here:

My point is still very very valid. You have sporting schools and self defense schools, and I know this is true because I've been in both. A martial art that emphasizes real life events and has no competition, will only have schools that address self defense. With BJJ, that is not the case. I'm not saying it's "good" or "bad". I'm just saying it's true. When I said "concern" before, I was referring, again, to the concerns of the guy who opened the thread.

Yeah... I've seen the program. And, honestly, those videos don't really fill me with a huge amount of confidence that they've really grasped the differences... the focus is still in the wrong direction, and no matter how much Rener tries to separate the two, they're really little more than variations on each other in that approach. And, when it comes down to it, that's what it would need to be. To be as removed as the boys were suggesting would be no benefit at all.

Nor would I. That was my point.

Okay... but that was only half of what I said.

You can simply ask them if there was any attention paid to real life scenarios.

Sure, but my point was that they wouldn't necessarily have the knowledge themselves to determine that.

I would agree with you that Jiu Jitsu is a uniquely Brazilian martial art related closely to, but distinct from, modern Judo. I would presume (perhaps mistakenly) that modern BJJ is as closely related to any kind of koryu art as modern Judo. However much that might be.

JiuJitsu is not a uniquely Brazilian martial art, Steve. Brazilian JiuJitsu is. And, for the record, no, BJJ is definitely much more removed from Koryu than Judo is, on many, many levels.

Regarding phonetic spellings, if we're translating Japanese into English or vice versa, then that's relevant. But Jiu Jitsu doesn't refer to something Japanese. It refers to something Brazilian, and so any romanization of kanji is relevant only as a footnote to discussing the etymology of the term. It's trivia and may be interesting, but has no bearing on the correctness of the modern usage of the word.

We're not translating, though, Steve, we're transliterating. And, if you're not looking at romanization of the kanji, why are the kanji used? Why do BJJ practitioners get 柔術 tattooed on themselves? Why does it turn up on videos, such as the ones linked above?

Do you think that the scribbles on the page below are jujutsu? じゅうじゅつ

If so, my point wasn't clear. The scribbles on the page above, like the kanji and any other words, are symbols representing words that in turn represent some thing.

They are the word. That is the word as written in hiragana syllabary.

My experience in Brazilian Jiujitsu always had a self defense component. Now I agree that is not the norm with everyone but it is the norm with all the schools I have encountered affiliated with most of the Gracies. (mine were initially affiliated with Rorion) Helio Gracie was adamant on teaching the self-defense and the sporting side as were his sons and now grand sons. Heck I have been in the room with Royce showing self-defense moves, just as I learned them from my instructor.

Mine claimed to, but was flawed across the board, including from Royce. There was a lot that was claimed to be self defence techniques... but, really, it was just altered sports methodology.

As Steve has mentioned the word jiujitsu is now distinctly Brazilian. A traditionalist may not like it but hey it is, what it is!

Except it's not. There are any number of Western, modern systems that use the same spelling.

Chris fitness is some thing that will always help someone out in self-defense and yes the Gracie's have proven their form of jiujitsu works great in a one on one confrontation whether for self-defense or in competition. A whole heck of a lot of street fights have documented this in brazil. If you want I can send you a video tape of some of them. It is not at it's base a sporting system but a system for personal protection. (that is how the Gracie's see it and how Helio Gracie saw it) Though not all Brazilian Jiujitsu instructors now not affiliated with the Gracie's see it that way!

I'm not arguing against fitness, Brian, I was saying that the focus on, and type of fitness is different for sports as opposed to other aims.

But what you do is not what I do. You do jujutsu. I do Jiu Jitsu. They aren't the same.

Yeah, what you do is different... and you spell the term differently... sure. But the simple fact is that it's a Japanese word transliterated incorrectly. You use the older transliteration? Cool. The argument as to who does what is actually kinda besides the point, though.

Does it actually beg the question? I don't think so, or at least, I don't know whether you and I are using the phrase in the same way. Begging the question is a kind of circular logic.

When you're claiming that that particular spelling and usage is Portuguese, and "uniquely Brazilian", then yes, it does, as there are quite a number of others, not Brazilian, not Portuguese, that use it the same way your system does. It's not circular logic as much as pointing out that your claim is easily refuted.

But, if you're asking that question, I'd say the answer is... something else?

But you said that the usage of "JiuJitsu" is "uniquely Brazilian"... that it's part of the Portuguese language... and Oaktree came up with a usage that was not Brazilian, not your system, and not Portuguese in origin... which means that the usage is not uniquely Brazilian, nor Portuguese in origin. I feel that was perhaps the point...

We can talk about historic diction. We can discuss contemporary diction. We can even discuss both at the same time. But we should be careful not to confuse the two. Language is like fashion. It ebbs and flows and changes all the time. This is particularly true where other languages enter the mix.

Sure, but you still need to differentiate between what is a loanword imported from another language, and what is etymologically speaking part of the base language itself. JiuJitsu is, in this case, an imported Japanese loanword, and it's mis-transliterated.

Simply put, over the last 100 years, the vocabulary has settled. And in the year 2014 AD, it's pretty clear that in English, jujutsu is not jiu jitsu. They are loosely related, but the relationship between jiu jitsu and judo is much closer. Australian Rules Football isn't American Football, even though they have similar names and are loosely related. And, most people in the world have no trouble distinguishing the two. In the same way, Jujutsu and Jiu Jitsu aren't the same, and I wonder why you have so much trouble distinguishing them.

The football analogy is completely off base, Steve... no-one's arguing that "fuutbawl" is the same word as "football", but it's the way it's spelt in Swahili. And, while I'm at it there's no such thing as "in English" here... it's not an English word, although it has found a place within the lexicon (as a loanword).

Let's talk about your fixation with male eroticism. What's that about?

Now, Steve, you wouldn't be trying to muddy the discussion there, would you?

I don't know, oak tree. You say public perception, but your public is definitely different from mine. I've never even heard the term korotty before. And even if someone says tai chi, I don't think it's as horrible as you seem to believe. My mom does tai chi and really likes it. It's really good for her and whether it's called taiji or tai chi, she certainly means no offense.

Is English your first language? I'm wondering if some of the disconnect we are having is in part due to a language barrier.

English is mine, Steve, so I'm going to say that no, that's not the issue.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hey Tony,

While not arguing that you have more experience in this field than I do, and also not arguing about the origins or focus of some schools of BJJ, I'd argue about the development not coming from the sporting side of things. Of course, I'm open to hearing about an alternate, can you give me an example of BJJ that has not developed it's methodology through sporting application? The reason I ask is that I can't think of any form that shows the hallmarks of not developing in that fashion... and, to be absolutely clear here, I don't see anything negative about developing through sports at all... as I said, it is what gives BJJ it's sophistication and depth of knowledge on the ground. It's a great thing.

It might be easier to continue this discussion over in the "Modern vs Antiquated" thread, where I've already laid out some background on BJJ's development, but I'll go ahead and give an example here.

The original crucible for the development of BJJ was street fighting and challenge matches with practitioners of other arts.* To this end, the Gracies developed the classic strategy of controlling the distance against strikers by using the pisão (a hybrid between a stomp kick and a side kick) to keep opponents outside of striking range until finding an opportunity to close directly to the clinch range, avoiding any opportunity for the opponent to land a punch. This approach would be pointless against another BJJ practitioner, even if BJJ competition allowed strikes. This was an original development for BJJ - I've never seen it anywhere in judo.

Another example, BJJ contains very effective methods for defending against strikes on the ground. These weren't developed primarily for use against other BJJ practitioners. They were developed for situations where the BJJ practitioner took down a bigger, stronger opponent who was able to reverse him and end up on top. By negating the opponent's ability to strike, the BJJ practitioner could tire out and frustrate his adversary, leading to the opportunity for a submission.

*(As we know, street-fighting and challenge matches are not self-defense. I'll agree that BJJ has relatively little in the way of original development in self-defense methodology, except for those ground techniques which are useful both for fighting and self-defense. The stand-up self-defense curriculum is not unique to BJJ.)

 

[Steve]

At some point, over the course of decades, or centuries, loan words become absorbed. And like any other word that has been absorbed, it's etymology can be traced through several languages to its origins. But at some point, it becomes just another word spoken in the language of the area. "jiu jitsu" may or may not have been mistransliterated in the early 1900s. What I'm suggesting is that in today's world, at least in America, if you see Jiu Jitsu on anything, it is referring to Jiu Jitsu/BJJ/GJJ. If you see jujutsu on something, it is referring to something other than Jiu Jitsu/BJJ/GJJ.

And yes, the Machados are practicing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu which is an offshoot of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. In fact, the Machados brothers' lineage goes through Carlos Gracie Jr., the founder of Gracie Barra. There is only Fadda's line and Gracie's line, and the folks who practice Jiu Jitsu throughout the world are almost surely practicing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu derived at some point in the lineage from Carlos and Helio. Oswaldo Fadda himself came into the Gracie fold late in his life. When people use the term Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, it is not to obscure the connection to the Gracie's in their lineage. It's to distinguish the lack of direct connection between their school and a contemporary Gracie affilliation, such as Gracie Humaita, Gracie Barra or the Gracie Academy.

To bring this back to the point, in America, the distinction is very clear.

And, sushi is an American word in America, where Americans who don't speak Japanese use it all the time in their daily lives. When used in America, it means something very specific, which is NOT what the word "sushi" means in Japanese. Related? Sure. There's rice involved, and some kind of protein. But, if you go into an American Sushi restaurant expecting food and atmosphere at all like what is in Japan, you'd surely be disappointed. The words are specific, and there is no conflict at all in acknowledging that a term is derived from another language, while also accepting that the term has now been absorbed.

The bottom line here, once again, is that in the year 2014, in America, the terms "jiu jitsu" and "jujutsu" mean different things. The rest is just a discussion of how we may or may not have gotten here. But here we are.

Regarding the male erotic undertones, I mentioned it only because it was brought up more than once and seemed really... really... strange. At first, I thought it was because Oaktree was being a smartass, but then it occurred to me that he might not be a native English speaker, which I hope is the case.

And, Chris, I know you're a native English speaker. Why would you think otherwise?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It might be easier to continue this discussion over in the "Modern vs Antiquated" thread, where I've already laid out some background on BJJ's development, but I'll go ahead and give an example here.

The original crucible for the development of BJJ was street fighting and challenge matches with practitioners of other arts.* To this end, the Gracies developed the classic strategy of controlling the distance against strikers by using the pisão (a hybrid between a stomp kick and a side kick) to keep opponents outside of striking range until finding an opportunity to close directly to the clinch range, avoiding any opportunity for the opponent to land a punch. This approach would be pointless against another BJJ practitioner, even if BJJ competition allowed strikes. This was an original development for BJJ - I've never seen it anywhere in judo.

Another example, BJJ contains very effective methods for defending against strikes on the ground. These weren't developed primarily for use against other BJJ practitioners. They were developed for situations where the BJJ practitioner took down a bigger, stronger opponent who was able to reverse him and end up on top. By negating the opponent's ability to strike, the BJJ practitioner could tire out and frustrate his adversary, leading to the opportunity for a submission.

*(As we know, street-fighting and challenge matches are not self-defense. I'll agree that BJJ has relatively little in the way of original development in self-defense methodology, except for those ground techniques which are useful both for fighting and self-defense. The stand-up self-defense curriculum is not unique to BJJ.)

I would agree with everything Tony except your last few sentences. I think Rorion and those at the Gracie Academy would disagree that there system has relatively little in the original development for self-defense methodology in Brazil. (it's origin) Not totally disagreeing with you but I feel they would disagree based on my experiences training with some of them, talking, etc. When training with Rolker Gracie a long time ago when he came from Brazil he talked about using Gracie Jiujitsu in self-defense in Brazil and understanding the difference between a violent encounter and a sporting match. He was pretty specific about several things even if some of it was a little hard to follow at times.


Other than that I love your post!