What is handgun competency to you

[Kong Soo Do]

I've mostly worked in Law Enforcement in Massachusetts and Hawaii. Getting anything changed, about anything - takes forever. If at all.

Yep. I've tried for years to get .40 S&W to be an authorized round. Won't happen. First, because the authorized list predates the existence of .40 S&W and no one wants to update it. Secondly because of the fiscal increase to buy both training and HP ammunition.

But that's more a matter of Cultural Inertia, than actual ability.

It is more a matter of logistics and fiscal considerations.

 

[CB Jones]

I've mostly worked in Law Enforcement in Massachusetts and Hawaii. Getting anything changed, about anything - takes forever. If at all.

Luckily, we don’t have that trouble. Our command staff typically takes our recommendations especially if it has to do with safety.

For us, instructors become subject matter experts. We are assigned to working groups that update/write/create/test P&P and tactics as needed in our field of expertise.

We propose the changes to the command staff who will accept, deny, or ask us to re-examine it.

Probably 1/3 of the members in the groups are full time instructors who are continuously testing the tactics in controlled settings while the other 2/3s are part time instructors who are still working in the field.

 

[Buka]

I currently carry without one in the chamber. But I am living on another planet, so usual applicable things are completely moot.

And, yes, I've trained hundreds of hours this way. And I can rack a slide as fast as anyone I know, with or without the use of my hands. But I do know many guys on the mainland that don't carry one in the chamber.

But, CB, want me to blow your mind? Tell you something you probably won't believe about my department?

 

[Brian King]

Hat tip, nice to see educated and respectful conversation on a topic that is more than a passion to some. Thanks all.

 

[CB Jones]

But, CB, want me to blow your mind? Tell you something you probably won't believe about my department?

 

[Buka]

Okay, and I even have this in writing. It's about the use of force continuum we use.....which is none at all.

If a suspect pulls a knife, you cannot, may not, will not pull your side arm. You can ONLY PULL A KNIFE. You can only equal the threat.

Apparently they want to encourage knife fighting in an airport. And, God forbid should that happen, and I do what any reasonable LEO would/should do, and perhaps get fired.....I'll be renaming that airport in a couple of years to Buka's Place. Kind of a catchy ring I think.

Told you it was going to blow your mind.

 

[CB Jones]

@Buka

That's Crazy!

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

Lots of great points in this thread, and I'm especially intrigued by the discussion of Israeli Carry... I've always had a thing for a good 1911, but I don't like the idea of carrying an SAO weapon with a round in the chamber for EDC, hence why I usually carry a decocked DA/SA or a striker fired. I may look into the Israeli Carry method ad reevaluate the 1911 as a viable option.

As for the question of competence, I would say, as others in the thread have said, that a big component of overall competency is being able to shoot under pressure. I had my first experience with this at a USPSA match; I went in thinking that I was shot **** because I had taken fifth in an Excellence-in-Competition at my base, and, as if often the case in the martial arts, left thoroughly humbled at how terribly I did when adrenaline hit my system. However, I continued to compete, and got much, much better at shooting under pressure. Such training has really made the difference in the course i'm in now, where I watch my classmates, all of whom are in theory qualified to handle a weapon, mess up when opposition firing back with simunitions are introduced.

 

[Hanshi]

"Equal force" is meaningless. In such a case, survival is more of a toss-up rather than a certainty.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Okay, and I even have this in writing. It's about the use of force continuum we use.....which is none at all.

If a suspect pulls a knife, you cannot, may not, will not pull your side arm. You can ONLY PULL A KNIFE. You can only equal the threat.

Apparently they want to encourage knife fighting in an airport. And, God forbid should that happen, and I do what any reasonable LEO would/should do, and perhaps get fired.....I'll be renaming that airport in a couple of years to Buka's Place. Kind of a catchy ring I think.

Told you it was going to blow your mind.

Wow, Buka that is a clear example of the administration not having the first clue about tactics and proper use-of-force responses. And it seems they are more on the side of the bad guy than their own officers. I agree, should it ever be put to the test you'll end up owning the airport after some lengthy legal battles.

 

[Runs With Fire]

I don't know all the terms, and my only actuall training was an 8 hr cpl class however, my instructor advocated carrying chamber empty. Slide back/ slide forward- whatever fits. He also said "if you're not going to take my advice, you better be consistent, or you'll end up dead".

 

[CB Jones]

I don't know all the terms, and my only actuall training was an 8 hr cpl class however, my instructor advocated carrying chamber empty. Slide back/ slide forward- whatever fits. He also said "if you're not going to take my advice, you better be consistent, or you'll end up dead".

Not a fan of your instructor then.

@Kong Soo Do advocates empty chamber........but he advocates lots of training to be proficient in this. That carry method would take a lot of training and you need to train under pressure.

Advising someone to carry this way with out training them...is setting them up for failure.


And if he is advocating carrying with the slide locked back.......HECK NO! Extremely bad idea!

 

[Runs With Fire]

Not a fan of your instructor then.

@Kong Soo Do advocates empty chamber........but he advocates lots of training to be proficient in this. That carry method would take a lot of training and you need to train under pressure.

Advising someone to carry this way with out training them...is setting them up for failure.


And if he is advocating carrying with the slide locked back.......HECK NO! Extremely bad idea!

That may be. I'm not disagreeing with you. Most of our three hour range time was learning how fast we can push while maintaining all bullets in the circle on the shiloette. I do see that carrying and handling a pistol responsibly in all situations takes alot of training. Makes me wish I started firearm training before I got married ( when I didn't care how much time and money I spent away from home). This thread really turned quite intetesting and informative!

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

That may be. I'm not disagreeing with you. Most of our three hour range time was learning how fast we can push while maintaining all bullets in the circle on the shiloette. I do see that carrying and handling a pistol responsibly in all situations takes alot of training. Makes me wish I started firearm training before I got married ( when I didn't care how much time and money I spent away from home). This thread really turned quite intetesting and informative!

One of the inadvertent benefits of being perpetually single is I have considerably more money for ammo and range time!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The Instructors-only course I took was 40 hours. About 10 minutes of that was class time, the rest was on the range. As I've noted previously, it was the most hard-core combat shooting course I've ever taken. Not just the IC portion but the totality of the system i.e. head shots at 25 yards, H2H while shooting, stress shooting (around corners, gauntlet running, hostages and all sorts of stuff of that nature). The actual training of IC was the first part of the day and then simple repetition. I don't remember how long the civilian course was, perhaps two, maybe three days? We had more stuff in our course because it was for instructors and it involved a lot of things civilians wouldn't necessarily need. The point is, it doesn't take a long time to learn the actual process of IC. It is pretty simple when you break it down. The rest is repetition and various scenario factors.

Just like Boatman edged weapon training or WWII combatives. Both brutally effective but the actual training time is minimal. One would think that in order for something to be highly effective you'd need to spend gobs of training time. Actually the reverse is more accurate in a lot of cases. The more stupid simple something is, the more effective it can be i.e. gross motor skill type stuff. Boatman edged weapon was 16 hours worth of training, and that was for instructors. Actual rank-and-file officer training was like 4 to 8 hours with refresher every 18 months. And without regards to style-ego it was more realworld and effective than ANY martial arts edged weapon training I've taken in the last 40 years.

I could train someone in IC in 2-3 hours and the rest is them just working on proficiency. There's always stuff you can 'add-on' of course, but the bulk of what someone would probably need in most situations can be covered in a short amount of time. Might need another hour or two with stuff like one-hand weapon malfunction clearing and such but the rest is simply practice. That's up to the individual.