What I learned after 4 months of punching the heavy bag

drop bear

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It doesn’t? Well if I don’t understand the use, then how can it be useful? Maybe I misunderstand your meaning here. It’s a tool. Maybe there are other tools for similar purpose. Maybe some of those tools work better for some people. Objectively speaking, there have been a lot of skilled martial artists that used kata in addition to other tools to train. Some of them are likely to say that kata was useful to them. Since so many styles from so many places have produced skilled martial artists independently from one another using similar training tools, I would start by saying it must do something for some people. Remember, even placebo can be quite efficacious. Application of logic to perception is tricky. Belief can be very powerful, regardless of how science gets applied to it.

Ok. So we can link cause to effect without understanding why that link occurs. Because cause and effect doesn't care about our understanding

I don't need to understand newton's laws to throw a ball in a hoop. I can just do it until it goes in the hoop.

If that link between cause and effect doesn't exist. Understanding doesn't magically make that link appear.

So if i do understand newtons laws that doesn't automatically mean i can put a ball in a hoop.

So when someone says.

"it doesn't work because you don’t understand kata" It is an empty statement. Because nobody has made a decent claim that kata does work.

And nobody will. Making a Statement and then supporting it with evidence isn't a high priority for martial artists generally.

Now this doesn't mean kata does or doesn't work. It means at this stage we don't know. And that we are not using the right tools to understand if it does or doesn't work.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Now this doesn't mean kata does or doesn't work.
One of my forms has combo:

- groin kick,
- right jab,
- left cross,
- right hook,
- left hook.

Even if you just throw this 5 moves combo at your opponent, you can keep him busy for a while. If you always start a fight by using this combo, you can put your opponent in defense mode and that will be toward your advantage.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I don't know about Karate and boxing, but in CMA, to cordinate punch with leading foot landing is a very important training. This will give you the maximum knock down power.
I have zero karate experience. I have boxing experience and I have cma experience. I agree that coordination is important for all aspects of martial arts. How that is applied and by whom is more important in my opinion.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Ok. So we can link cause to effect without understanding why that link occurs. Because cause and effect doesn't care about our understanding

I don't need to understand newton's laws to throw a ball in a hoop. I can just do it until it goes in the hoop.

If that link between cause and effect doesn't exist. Understanding doesn't magically make that link appear.

So if i do understand newtons laws that doesn't automatically mean i can put a ball in a hoop.

So when someone says.

"it doesn't work because you don’t understand kata" It is an empty statement. Because nobody has made a decent claim that kata does work.

And nobody will. Making a Statement and then supporting it with evidence isn't a high priority for martial artists generally.

Now this doesn't mean kata does or doesn't work. It means at this stage we don't know. And that we are not using the right tools to understand if it does or doesn't work.
We should establish what most martial artists think the definition of kata is, and what it’s actual intended purpose is. Now I won’t presume here, I would instead ask what it is, and what its purpose is. See how many different answers we get. That could be an interesting start.
 
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JowGaWolf

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We should establish what most martial artists think the definition of kata is, and what it’s actual intended purpose is. Now I won’t presume here, I would instead ask what it is, and what its purpose is. See how many different answers we get. That could be an interesting start.
We've "beat that horse to death" It would be interesting to see if that horse still has enough life for another round of "What is Kata"
 

Flying Crane

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We've "beat that horse to death" It would be interesting to see if that horse still has enough life for another round of "What is Kata"
Yeah, part of the problem is that not all forms were created for the same purpose. As much as I like to say that forms were meant to be a training tool and not as performance art, that isn’t always true. Modern Wushu and XMA are modern examples of forms that were specifically meant to be performance art.

It is also my opinion that not all forms were created equal. Some forms are well crafted and worth the effort to practice. Other forms are pure junk and are a waste of time. I do not automatically accept that the ancestors who created the forms, including the traditional fighting forms, were geniuses who unquestioningly created a quality form. Maybe in some cases that was true, but not in others.

There is a lot of room for debate and disagreement.
 

Dirty Dog

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Ok. So we can link cause to effect without understanding why that link occurs. Because cause and effect doesn't care about our understanding
But we do know why that link occurs. Repetition is an excellent way to learn a skill. Forms are one way to do that.
 

drop bear

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We should establish what most martial artists think the definition of kata is, and what it’s actual intended purpose is. Now I won’t presume here, I would instead ask what it is, and what its purpose is. See how many different answers we get. That could be an interesting start.

We don't really need to. Any kata that leads to a result is a link that lata has a result.

If someone else's kata is fundamentally different then it would have to make its own case.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Provided that repetition actually leads to that skill.
But it demonstrably does in thousands of gyms all over the world. So what is your point then? We know this from watching kids even. They learn kata, repeat it, then they repeat the motion from the kata, thus the kata lead to the skill.
 

drop bear

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But it demonstrably does in thousands of gyms all over the world. So what is your point then? We know this from watching kids even. They learn kata, repeat it, then they repeat the motion from the kata, thus the kata lead to the skill.

The skill of kata.
 

Alan0354

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Maybe someone can video tape some fights of themselves using moves from their forms so we can see. We might really learn something.
 
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Dirty Dog

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Maybe someone can video tape some fights of themselves using moves from their forms so we can see. We might really learn something.
Every fight video you've ever watched used moves from forms. You don't understand forms, we get it.
 

Alan0354

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Every fight video you've ever watched used moves from forms. You don't understand forms, we get it.
Using put down language doesn't make your case. NO I NEVER SEEN FIGHT VIDEOS THAT USE A LOT OF MOVES FROM THE FORM.

Maybe you should make a video of yourself, you are supposed to be expert in TKD, do a real fight using ONLY punch and kicks and footwork in TKD forms. We can all learn a lot.
 

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