What I learned after 4 months of punching the heavy bag

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JowGaWolf

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Maybe someone can video tape some fights of themselves using moves from their forms so we can see. We might really learn something.
Does sparring count? I have a video of intermediate sparring intensity.
 

Alan0354

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We both agree that form should not be used to develop skill. The difference is:

- You believe form is useless.
- I believe form can be used to polish an already developed skill. Also form can be used as text book to record information.
To me, it's a waste of time practicing something that is not useful. Maybe in the older days where people didn't have better things to do. For today's people, time is money. If you only have time to practice 1hr a day, you really want to spend 1/2hr on forms?
 

Alan0354

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And you do talk a lot.
Yes, I have the week off this week.

Also, I am surprised how much TMA people keep defending their style instead of being humble and learn when it's proven the new ways work better based on fights. I guess I was working in high tech where changes happen everyday. We learn to adapt, throw away the old knowledge and humbly learn the better way.

For me, I am too old and injured to learn and get into MMA, but I always said I won't last a minute with the new style. I have eyes and I keep my eyes open instead of blindly loyal to what I learned in the past.

Hey, I never claim I am good, I have been honest where I am at. I actually show videos of myself so people know exactly where I am at. I only spent a few years, not like you experts that are instructors. BUT I do have eyes to see and judge. I believe in show and tell. One video speaks a 1000 words.
 
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Alan0354

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You said ufc got rid of stuff that doesnt work.
We are talking about one step or two steps drills, not the long form. It is important to practice one step or two steps drills with partners, then of cause sparring.

BTW, my teacher was really advanced beyond his time in the 80s. Not only we don't do forms and practicing punching and kicking on bags. Once a month, he invited a Jujitsu instructor to run the class to teach us jujitsu. That's why we at least have basic knowledge on jujitsu.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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To me, it's a waste of time practicing something that is not useful.
Q: What's the value for a form?
A: It can be used to record information.


Since Chinese wrestling has over 60 different categories of throw, a total over 230 throws, many years ago I tried to create a throwing form that throw 1 can set up throw 2, throw 2 can set up throw 3, ..., throw 23 can set up throw 24. It was a challenged task. I had come up many diferent forms for that task. The following sequence was one of those forms that I have created.

Purpose:

- Record information.
- This task has not been done before.
- Understand how to use one throw to set up another throw.
- ...

1. Knee seizing (KOU) N
2. 頦 Foot sweep (TI) N
3. Inner hook (HE) N - S
4. Send forward (WAN) S
5. 撏 Cracking (BENG) N
6. 蝞 Body control (GUAN) N
7. Inner sickle (DAO) N
8. Overhead (CHUAI)) S
9. Trunk hitting (ZHUANG) N
10. Advance squeeze (KAO) W
11. Front cut (QIE) N
12. Leg lift (TIAO) S - S
13. Inner heel sweep (GUA) S - S
14. 頩 Leg block (BIE) N
15. 蝥 Leg twist (CHAN), S
16. Outer hook (LOU) S
17. Hip throw (WEN), N
18. Split (BAI) S
19. Leg seize (JIAN) N
20. 鋆 Back inner hook (LI) E
21. 瘝 Inner kick (CHONG) N
22. 敶 Leg spring (TAN) W - N
23. Tie (KUN) W
24. Embrace (BAO) E
 
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JowGaWolf

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To me, it's a waste of time practicing something that is not useful. Maybe in the older days where people didn't have better things to do. For today's people, time is money. If you only have time to practice 1hr a day, you really want to spend 1/2hr on forms?
Video 1: This

Video 2: Is the same as this (with them moving while in horse stance)

Video 3: and is the same footwork found here

Not all of it is useless. The biggest problem that I see is that many people who see and train Video 2 don't understand the application of it because they never tried to actually use it. People almost automatically think, "You can't fight like that, at that speed, and with your hands to the side," That's the wrong way to think of Video 2. With Video 2, the questions should be:
1. What is being trained
2. What is the benefit of doing that training
3. How does doing that training make you more effective in Video 1 and Video 3:

Video 2 conditions and train all of the components needed to be effective and efficient as shown in Video 1 and Video 3. Without it that conditioning your knees, tendons, and ligaments will take a beating. Your leg muscles will tire easily making it more difficult for you to move without tiring.

The improvement that you are trying to gain in your front kick can be improved by doing some of the stuff that you originally think as being useless. If you like I can share some of those "useless exercises" with you and I guarantee that you'll see improvement in your front kicks. If you do them 5 times a week in a 5 minute sessions (per exercise and includes rest). The first thing you'll experience is that something so simple is so challenging. You won't break a sweat but it will make your legs stronger for kicking. The only thing you'll need is some tape and a bendable drinking straw. You see noticeable results within 3-4 weeks training at a comfortable pace.

1656797217027.png
 
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JowGaWolf

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Also, I am surprised how much TMA people keep defending their style instead of being humble and learn when it's proven the new ways work better based on fights.
Actually the pattern in professional fighting is showing that the old ways work and that young fighters are learning how to use the old ways better. There's nothing to be humble about.

MMA for beginners (I doubt that unless the person already had skills). Same stuff I've seen in traditional martial arts classes. If this guy was Silva's student, Silva would make the guy train punches and elbows until he can do a decent punch or elbow. Listen to what Silva says. "When you train this, you do it step by step, and you'll become better and better." If that's not a TMA mindset then I don't know what is.

But I could be wrong. This guy seems to be working on the same things I work on. He's MMA I'm TMA.

I still could be wrong, but this guy seems to working on some of the same things I've show in Jow Ga

How is my traditional martial arts training and drills more useless than what what these guys are doing? I'm TMA all the way. 99% of what I do with TMA is to help show people that TMA is functional and relevant to today's hand to hand conflict and fighting environments be it self-defense or competitive. I personally think that you have only been exposed to TMA or taught by people who only cared about the image of TMA and not the function of it and I've said it before in the past. I think that mentality is just going to make it more difficult for you to progress. If I saw some TMA that was crap, I'll be the first one to point it out, provided that I can point it out before 6 other people in here who would say it without being biased.
 
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JowGaWolf

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For me, I am too old and injured to learn and get into MMA, but I always said I won't last a minute with the new style. I have eyes and I keep my eyes open instead of blindly loyal to what I learned in the past.
Not everyone trained what you train and importantly, I don't think anyone here learned from any of your teachers.
Hey, I never claim I am good, I have been honest where I am at. I actually show videos of myself so people know exactly where I am at. I only spent a few years, not like you experts that are instructors. BUT I do have eyes to see and judge. I believe in show and tell. One video speaks a 1000 words.
It would be easier to just nicely ask if someone could share a video of their TMA training and conditioning drills. Kung Fu Wang shows his video, I show my videos. Ivan shows his videos. There is literally a section on this site where people have shared their videos. Some videos are still up and some aren't. My guess is that you would see more TMA that is functional if you simply ask to see it. People are happy to share if they know it will help someone out. But no one likes to feel like they have to Prove something to you, me, or anyone else. I'm kind of the exception of that since part of my goal is to show that Jow Ga is functional and that it can be used.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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To me, it's a waste of time practicing something that is not useful.
There are a lot of useful skills in CMA that have not been used in MMA yet. For example, the "circular dragging". When you drag your oponent's arm and move in circle, you can change a striking game into a wrestling game right at that moment.

Will you see this skill be used in UFC in the next 10 years? May be, may be not.

my-circle-drag-kou.gif


sc-tearing.gif
 
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JowGaWolf

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There are a lot of useful skills in CMA that have not been used in MMA yet. For example, the "circular dragging". When you drag your oponent's arm and move in circle, you can change a striking game into a wrestling game right at that moment.

Will you see this skill be used in UFC in the next 10 years? May be, may be not.

my-circle-drag-kou.gif


sc-tearing.gif


Similar principle?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Similar principle?
Those are complete different principles.

The "circular dragging (tearing)" is used that you want to have control on your opponent, but you don't want your opponent to have any control on you.

For example,

- You have 2 hands on me and I have 2 hands on you.
- I break apart one of your controls.
- I then break apart your other hand control.
- At this moment I have 1 hand control on you, but you have no hand control on me. If I start to run toward your back, you will be anxiously to get your hand control on me again. I can attack you at that moment because you are 1 step behind of me.

In other words, the circular dragging is used to avoid clinch.

my-tearing.gif
 
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JowGaWolf

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Those are complete different principles.

The "circular dragging (tearing)" is used that you want to have control on your opponent, but you don't want your opponent to have any control on you.

For example,

- You have 2 hands on me and I have 2 hands on you.
- I break apart one of your controls.
- I then break apart your other hand control.
- At this moment I have 1 hand control on you, but you have no hand control on me. If I start to run toward your back, you will be anxiously to get your hand control on me again. I can attack you at that moment because you are 1 step behind of me.

In other words, the circular dragging is used to avoid clinch.

my-tearing.gif
Then I don't think we will see that in MMA being that they are comfortable with getting into the clinch and trying to use the clinch for their advantage. Not unless BJJ has something similar.
 

Flying Crane

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Yes, I have the week off this week.

Also, I am surprised how much TMA people keep defending their style instead of being humble and learn when it's proven the new ways work better based on fights. I guess I was working in high tech where changes happen everyday. We learn to adapt, throw away the old knowledge and humbly learn the better way.

For me, I am too old and injured to learn and get into MMA, but I always said I won't last a minute with the new style. I have eyes and I keep my eyes open instead of blindly loyal to what I learned in the past.

Hey, I never claim I am good, I have been honest where I am at. I actually show videos of myself so people know exactly where I am at. I only spent a few years, not like you experts that are instructors. BUT I do have eyes to see and judge. I believe in show and tell. One video speaks a 1000 words.
Talk is cheap. As you like to say.
 

Alan0354

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Talk is cheap. As you like to say.
I show all I have already for the better or the worst. I said it from the beginning I only have 3 years of training before I injured my back. I show my video what I can do which is not much. BUT I did posted the video. I was very open to show what I have and even asked for advice.

I just want to see what all the experts here can do.

I watch videos posted, but most really look like boxing and TKD type of kicks and punches. Where are all the TMA fancy moves, deep horse stance and fancy stuffs? That's why my first impression watching the fighting contest back in the 60s between all different kung fu styles, they all looked the same in the fight. Just whaling on each other stupid, nothing used in their particular style. All looked the same. I want to see moves of the style used in the fight and actually win, not kick boxing, Muy Thai stuffs while everyone is bragging about their style.
 
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Alan0354

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Actually the pattern in professional fighting is showing that the old ways work and that young fighters are learning how to use the old ways better. There's nothing to be humble about.

MMA for beginners (I doubt that unless the person already had skills). Same stuff I've seen in traditional martial arts classes. If this guy was Silva's student, Silva would make the guy train punches and elbows until he can do a decent punch or elbow. Listen to what Silva says. "When you train this, you do it step by step, and you'll become better and better." If that's not a TMA mindset then I don't know what is.

But I could be wrong. This guy seems to be working on the same things I work on. He's MMA I'm TMA.

I still could be wrong, but this guy seems to working on some of the same things I've show in Jow Ga

How is my traditional martial arts training and drills more useless than what what these guys are doing? I'm TMA all the way. 99% of what I do with TMA is to help show people that TMA is functional and relevant to today's hand to hand conflict and fighting environments be it self-defense or competitive. I personally think that you have only been exposed to TMA or taught by people who only cared about the image of TMA and not the function of it and I've said it before in the past. I think that mentality is just going to make it more difficult for you to progress. If I saw some TMA that was crap, I'll be the first one to point it out, provided that I can point it out before 6 other people in here who would say it without being biased.
Are those in your original TMA, or watching the new fighting and add on to it?

If it is add on, good, you are open to improvement, not stuck with the old stuffs. I would give a lot of credit to people that actually learn and constantly improve instead of being stubborn and discard the new knowledge.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Are these in Your style?
yes and no.
For the first video. The technique that we use is more like this were we want to twist our opponent. For me personally, I'm looking to twist the spine because it's an easy way to break structure. I don't want to spin my opponent around because he will regain his root. I have video of me light sparring that shows the twisting concept

For the second video. The technique that we use is very similar. The bumping that they are showing is the same thing that I train on the heavy bag. The reason that I train it on the heavy bag is because I use that shoulder as a strike. I don't have video of me actually doing this. I can only show how I train it on the bag.

Are those in your original TMA, or watching the new fighting and add on to it?
Anything that I use will always be TMA. I've just haven't seen any reason to do "any thing modern" tricking is the only modern martial art that I know. Lots of stuff that's used in MMA can be found in TMA systems, be it Thai, Chinese, Japanese or European .
 

Flying Crane

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I show all I have already for the better or the worst. I said it from the beginning I only have 3 years of training before I injured my back. I show my video what I can do which is not much. BUT I did posted the video. I was very open to show what I have and even asked for advice.

I just want to see what all the experts here can do.

I watch videos posted, but most really look like boxing and TKD type of kicks and punches. Where are all the TMA fancy moves, deep horse stance and fancy stuffs? That's why my first impression watching the fighting contest back in the 60s between all different kung fu styles, they all looked the same in the fight. Just whaling on each other stupid, nothing used in their particular style. All looked the same. I want to see moves of the style used in the fight and actually win, not kick boxing, Muy Thai stuffs while everyone is bragging about their style.
Talk is still cheap. You just keep on talking.
 

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