Welcome to the 13th century, NC!

[WC_lun]

Big Don, it doesn't matter if no religion at all accepts homosexuality. You do not have a right to pass laws that others must follow based upon religion or bigotry. We are not a theocracy. Get it?

Now to answer your question, some variants of both the Christian faith and Jewish faith do not believe homosexuality is a sin. Buhdhist do not believe being gay is a "sin." So there are your three and it still doesn't make a damn bit of difference. We aren't a theocracy to be ruled by religious dogma.

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen, what if the government made it illegal to hire anyone with blue eyes? The people voted and the law passed. Blue eyed people are no longer Able to work legally in our country. What would you do?

What if they did? What can you do? I already told you my answer you can move, fight it in courts, or deal with it. Thats all do you have another option?

Your entire position is a chicken **** cop out. It boils down to, oh well. Not me.


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Its not a cop out its a FACT. You can be as mad as you want but thats the way it is. I think seat belt laws are stupid but they are the law you still follow it or pay the price. The facts are people can vote for ANYTHING they want. It does not need to be fair, lodgical, or even smart. Majority rules. You can argue all you want about it the FACT is gays cant marry in NC no matter what you want in Washington state. It can change some day but thats the way it is right now.

 

[elder999]

Please enlighten me. Which translation is not "... full of errors-in translation, prose and data-especially in this regard."

English translation? None that I know of, but I've read the source documents-Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic. These days, in fact, I'm kind of fond of the Kaboris Codex, the lodest extant Aramaic text, and the one I cited in this thread , when I pointed out just one of the errors of the KJV.

And fact? There indeed being a lot of contradictory information, it would seem you only designate as fact, that which you choose to believe. You have that right, but not to determine what is fact and what is not for me.

No. The KJV says "Thou shalt not kill," when the original Hebrew reads, "You wil do no murder." The KJV says "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", when the original Aramaic reads "lemana sabacthani," -for this I was forsworn. THe KJV has Jesus as "from Nazareth," when the texts actually read "Jesus the Nazarene. As I said in that other thread, I could go on like this all day-but faith has nothing at all to do with facts, and I've pointed out before the 68 degree rule, and the difference between "truth" and fact.


The Bible-in all its translations-is full of beauty and truth. I don't know of any finer sounding English literature than the KJV's translation of John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God.All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made-John 1:1-3

Of course, we could have many discussions about what that actually means, and how the Greek mystery religions influenced it, but that's beside the point-it's beautiful. I also have a deep abiding love and appreciation for the teachings of the rabbi Yeshua-pity that more who call themselves "Christians" don't live by them. In any case, the verses translated and interpreted as condemning homosexuality-especially in the case of the New Testament-do not actually do this, don't actually use the word for "homosexual" that was used at the time, and are talking about something altogether different.

That's a fact. What you choose to believe, as I've said elsewhere and will continue to say, is entirely up to you.

No where in the Bible, I might add, does it say that you'll be condemened for the sins of others. Think homosexuality's a sin? That's just fine. Don't practice homosexuality. That's pretty much the end of it, as far as I can tell.[/quote]

you strongly attack the basis of my beliefs, and only when I mention it, how do you say you are not attacking me? And "specious?" Saying that about the Bible does you no credit sir.

I was fairly sure that as a Christian, the basis of your beliefs would be the teachings of the rabbi Yeshua, and not that book, written by the hands of fallible men, mistranslated by the hands and minds of fallible men, and full of the errors of fallible men, the Bible.

So, I'm not attacking you-not if you love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul, and love your neighbors as yourself, anyway-I'm attacking the validity of beliefs based on mistranslation, errors and political agendas.

Perhaps I don't correctly understand your meaning, emoticon or not. If I did not state my stance well, just let me know. But I take that as insulting. Shame on you sir!

Take it anyway you feel a need to-really, whatever gets you through the day, but I meant no insult to you.

The KJV of the Bible, though, lofty language notwithstanding, is an insult to Biblical scholarship.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So i ask again whats your plan to fight this great injustice?

What I have been doing.

Educating people.
Supporting law makers who support equality.
Providing support to others in the fight.

My state passed marriage equality. It hasn't been stuck down by any angry gods. In fact, we had a delightfully mild winter.
Texas which is very anti-gay spent last year on fire, and most likely will burn again this year.
Might be that they need to suck up to some deity or another before all that's left is toast.
I suspect NC might be a bit 'wet' this coming 'cane season.

 

[Steve]

What if they did? What can you do? I already told you my answer you can move, fight it in courts, or deal with it. Thats all do you have another option?


Its not a cop out its a FACT. You can be as mad as you want but thats the way it is. I think seat belt laws are stupid but they are the law you still follow it or pay the price. The facts are people can vote for ANYTHING they want. It does not need to be fair, lodgical, or even smart. Majority rules. You can argue all you want about it the FACT is gays cant marry in NC no matter what you want in Washington state. It can change some day but thats the way it is right now.

Im not mad. I pity you. Your attitude is exactly the kind that allows atrocity to occur. It's sad, and I thought you better.

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[Bob Hubbard]

WC, since you are so stuck on the religious aspect, can you name three religions that wholeheartedly embrace homosexuality, as a good thing?

In 2009, The United Kingdom Hindu Council became one of the first major religious organizations to support homosexuality when they issued a statement "Hinduism does not condemn homosexuality".[4]

Other religions that accept same-sex relationships:
Wicca
Satanism (LaVey)
Unitarian Universalism

Taoism has no position on the matter

Confucianism is iffy, but some say it accepted it. Some disagree.

Buddhism is complicated, some branches encouraged it, others did not.

 

[granfire]

What I have been doing.

Educating people.
Supporting law makers who support equality.
Providing support to others in the fight.

My state passed marriage equality. It hasn't been stuck down by any angry gods. In fact, we had a delightfully mild winter.
Texas which is very anti-gay spent last year on fire, and most likely will burn again this year.
Might be that they need to suck up to some deity or another before all that's left is toast.
I suspect NC might be a bit 'wet' this coming 'cane season.

LOL, according to your theory, they all ought to fornicate like gay rabbits in Texas to get rid of that horrible drought! :lfao:

I shall pass it along, since all the normal venues, like rain dance and sacrificing virgins have failed so far!

 

[ballen0351]

Im not mad. I pity you. Your attitude is exactly the kind that allows atrocity to occur. It's sad, and I thought you better.

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So you still didnt give an answer. If they outlaw blue eyed workers what can i do as a blue eyed person?

And your attitude of the govt knows better then the people is how we end up with no freedoms left at all

 

[ballen0351]

What I have been doing.

Educating people.
Supporting law makers who support equality.
Providing support to others in the fight.

My state passed marriage equality. It hasn't been stuck down by any angry gods. In fact, we had a delightfully mild winter.
Texas which is very anti-gay spent last year on fire, and most likely will burn again this year.
Might be that they need to suck up to some deity or another before all that's left is toast.
I suspect NC might be a bit 'wet' this coming 'cane season.

Yes because they are related your states position on gay marriage and the weather good argument your doing a fine job "educating" people. I thought it was global warming thats why my state gov. said we need to raise our gax tax to the highest in the nation to make people stop driving.

 

[CanuckMA]

English translation? None that I know of, but I've read the source documents-Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic. These days, in fact, I'm kind of fond of the Kaboris Codex, the lodest extant Aramaic text, and the one I cited in this thread , when I pointed out just one of the errors of the KJV.

The JPS and Artscroll translations are faithfull translations of the Hebrew. Even with those, when doing text study, reference to the Hebrew is still needed to clarify the meaning of the text.

 

[Big Don]

I find it somewhat entertaining that it is OK, to some of you, to be bigoted against religions,(For the sake of homosexuality) but, wrong, wrong wrong, to hold the opinion that homosexuality is wrong.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Yes because they are related your states position on gay marriage and the weather good argument your doing a fine job "educating" people. I thought it was global warming thats why my state gov. said we need to raise our gax tax to the highest in the nation to make people stop driving.

I was being sarcastic. Anyone here more than 1 week who has debated with me should know that I am often sarcastic. It's usually denoted by words appearing on your screen.

As to educating, I tried that earlier. It continues to go in one ear, out the other, dribble down the pant leg and get misfiled under the velcro sneakers.
Regardless, I shall continue.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Religious Education 101

Neither God nor Jesus make any comment on Homosexuality.

There are only 10 God-Given laws in the Old Testament.
The New Testament adds only 2 new God Given Laws.

Of those 12, none apply to homosexuality.

All other laws are man-issued, not god-given.

 

[WC_lun]

Big Don, you still don't get it do you? If you believe homosexuality is wrong, bigoted as that may be, you have that right. You don't have the right to make everyone else march in lock step with your bigoted views. Don't like homos, don't be a homo. You can even tell the world that. However, you don't get to trample others civil rights for your "religious" beliefs. No more than I get pass laws for you to follow based upon my religious beliefs.

 

[billc]

this is an interesting article that looks at why gay rights in states always fail, then it looks at the Democrats and how they cheat gay rights advocates...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/05/if_same_sex_marriage_is_a_civil_rights_issue.html

The Democratic Party will receive the overwhelming majority of votes among same-sex marriage supporters who define the issue as a civil or human right, yet for two years it possessed filibuster-proof majorities in Congress and the executive branch and did nothing on same-sex marriage at the federal level. Is that not rank bigotry? Obama has modified his position only after he lost the votes to accomplish such a goal. He can now take one position comfortably, knowing that he will never have to sign into law a bill that holds him to it. We could not say that in 2009 or 2010, when he conveniently remained silent. The past twelve years of Democratic presidencies have produced only one piece of legislation in regard to same-sex marriage; the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA). That legislation says that states that do not approve of same-sex marriage do not have to recognize marriages that occur in states which do. Imagine if you replace same-sex marriage with slavery, which is the far-left position on the issue. A Democratic president, Bill Clinton, signed into law the modern equivalent of the Fugitive Slave Act. This was never overturned by Barack Obama, and gay rights opponents have treated the legislation far less hostilely than the North reacted to the idea that they were forced to recognize that certain blacks were due fewer human rights because they hailed from slave states in the South.

So what Barak and Clinton have essentially done is tell the gay community..."you should put some ice on that..."

 

[billc]

Actually, until a vote goes the other way, or you get congress to act, yes he does. It is called the consequences of voting.

 

[elder999]

I find it somewhat entertaining that it is OK, to some of you, to be bigoted against religions,(For the sake of homosexuality) but, wrong, wrong wrong, to hold the opinion that homosexuality is wrong.

FOr the record, I haven't been bigoted at all agianst religions, for the sake of homosexuality at all. Nor have I said that it's wrong to hold the opinion that homosexuality is wrong-I have pointed ojut where it's mistaken, and based on faulty inteprpretations, to base that belief on certain passages of the Bible, and have, as others have, pointed out that just because one holds that opinion, for religious reasons or even just because they think "queer stuff is icky," does not mean that's a basis for denying a whole class of people equal rights under the law in our country.

I also find it more than a little amusing that it's okay for some to be bigoted against one religion (Islam) but not Chrisitianity....

:lfao:

 

[elder999]

View attachment $10 reasons.jpg

 

[Steve]

So you still didnt give an answer. If they outlaw blue eyed workers what can i do as a blue eyed person?

And your attitude of the govt knows better then the people is how we end up with no freedoms left at all

What the hell?? I would hope you'd do what we're doing. You advocate for what you believe in. You stand up and let your voice heard when you see something that you believe is wrong. You try to find common ground with those who oppose you.

And if all else fails, you take lessons from Mahatma Ghandi, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Henry David Thoreau and you work outside the system, and recognize that "right" and "legal" are two different things. Sometimes they overlap and sometimes they just flat out don't. Hell, follow the example of our founding fathers, because if they believed as you do, we'd have pictures of Queen Elizabeth on our money.

The real disappointment for me here is your entire position is, "I agree that this isn't right, but what're you gonna do?" That is such an incredible copout. That's exactly the attitude that the rank and file soldiers plead when on trial for war crimes, or what people said when we sent American citizens to concentration camps. "I was just one person and they were putting Japanese-Americans in concentration camps. Seemed okay at the time because we made it legal." "What can I do?" Just the question irritates me. That's the essence of a victim mentality, someone who accepts no responsibility for bad things that happen, but you can be damned sure takes credit for the good things.

Bottom line, you keep asking what people are going to do? Everyone in this thread has already done a lot more than you (who have admitted you agree that this is wrong). I have tried to articulate my beliefs in a way that is reasonable and focuses on what I think are the real crucial implications. Bob H. and a ton of others have done the same. You admit that you don't disagree. You just don't think anything can be done. Once again, I disagree



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[Steve]

I find it somewhat entertaining that it is OK, to some of you, to be bigoted against religions,(For the sake of homosexuality) but, wrong, wrong wrong, to hold the opinion that homosexuality is wrong.

Never. I would never support a ban against any religion. Ever. It would be the same thing. You can worship tulips in springtime with an orgy and I'd be okay with it, provided you do no harm to those outside. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't approve of it, but I would never endorse legally banning it.

In the same way, I would never, ever endorse forcing a church to allow same-sex marriage if it is against the beliefs of that church. If a pastor believes that it's wrong, he shouldn't have to marry gay people.

Are you seriously failing to see the connection?




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