Weapon questions

[donald1]

I got 4 questions
1. Which Is better for long for hard hits, durable, also I prefer heavier bo over light, which is better purple heart or hickory or would you suggest a different
2. Ash wood, I heard of it might have even seen a bo made of it but don't know anything of it. Is it good? Just curious on that question
3. I'm sure I might have asked this but what are some easy ways to know if a sword is good or a piece of junk ( i like weapons but if I'm going to put money in i want it good enough to spare
4. What's more important stance or good control of the weapon) i wanna say weapon but could be stance
Cause if you can't keep a good control of the weapon it could be knocked out your hands or used against you
Yet if you're stance is important cause without good stance you could get knocked off your feet or get hit by an attack that could have been avoided or countered

 

[Grenadier]

I got 4 questions
1. Which Is better for long for hard hits, durable, also I prefer heavier bo over light, which is better purple heart or hickory or would you suggest a different

For the first part:

How hard you can hit using a bo is actually more dependent on using a good set of mechanics, where the entire body is utilized to generate the power, and not just trying to use only arm muscles. I've seen a most amazing fellow (Shihan Toshihiro Oshiro) in his 60's swing a medium weight bo with enough force that he can snap through someone else's bo. At the same time, I've seen some very large individuals trying to swing as hard as they can using their arms as well as a heavy bo, and they end up generating a swing that is far weaker than what you'd expect.

For the second part:

Purpleheart has the advantage of having a higher density, and will be a harder wood than hickory. It will have a higher crush resistance.

At the same time, though, hickory is more resilient and more flexible, while still be plenty tough enough. While it may have a lower crush resistance, it's also going to be less likely to splinter due to its resilience.

Either material is going to be just fine for a bo. It all comes down to how much you're willing to spend, and what physical appearances you favor.

2. Ash wood, I heard of it might have even seen a bo made of it but don't know anything of it. Is it good? Just curious on that question

Ash wood is a good bit lighter than hickory. It's quite strong for being a lighter wood, and as long as you're not going to be doing a lot of bo on bo contact drills, it's a nice choice.

4. What's more important stance or good control of the weapon) i wanna say weapon but could be stance

Stance and control are all part of your fundamental techniques / mechanics. They are both important, of course, which is why it's very important to get good quality live instruction, so that you can start out with the proper set of mechanics, instead of having to go back, unlearn, and properly learn.

Stance and movement is how you'll generate most of your power, where the lower body will provide you with the strength. The upper body will be responsible for controlling the bo.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Donald,

Grenadier has addressed some of this quite well, I'm going to come from a slightly different angle here.

I got 4 questions

Okay.

1. Which Is better for long for hard hits, durable, also I prefer heavier bo over light, which is better purple heart or hickory or would you suggest a different

I'd suggest talking to your instructor in the weapon. Some systems will have a distinct preference (my systems state a preference towards Japanese oak, white in the main, sometimes red), others will be a little more lax on specific requirements. You say that you prefer a heavier bo over a light one? Once again, what does your system say… I have a student that is focusing on Bo with me… he bought one without checking with me, and bought a fairly thick and heavy one… which simply didn't work with our system… he had to go out and buy a lighter, thinner one…

That said, hickory has a fairly good following, as it's possibly the closest American hardwood equivalent to Japanese oak, and shares many similar traits. Purplewood is also quite good, but rarer, and can be a bit more expensive. But the main thing is to ask your instructor… and, if you don't have one, then I'd ask what you're doing with the weapon.

2. Ash wood, I heard of it might have even seen a bo made of it but don't know anything of it. Is it good? Just curious on that question

See Grenadier's comment here… it can also be a bit more brittle if not treated properly, which is why he's saying it's not really for contact work.

3. I'm sure I might have asked this but what are some easy ways to know if a sword is good or a piece of junk ( i like weapons but if I'm going to put money in i want it good enough to spare

What are you using a sword for? Have you checked with your instructor? If not, do so… if you don't have one, to be frank, I'm rather reticent to give out advice to someone I don't know… they're dangerous items by design… add to that inexperience, and a lack of awareness and knowledge, and it's a recipe for injury.

If you are actually training in an art that uses a sword, how is it used? Is it in Iai? Kumitachi? Tameshigiri? Each will have different preferences and requirements… simply listing fairly vague comments about "good" or "bad" things to look for can't really deal with such ideas, and can only give the impression of usable knowledge, while at the same time commonly doing little but confusing the matter and making people feel that the little they then hear is "the truth". It's not.

4. What's more important stance or good control of the weapon) i wanna say weapon but could be stance
Cause if you can't keep a good control of the weapon it could be knocked out your hands or used against you
Yet if you're stance is important cause without good stance you could get knocked off your feet or get hit by an attack that could have been avoided or countered

Yeah… again, talk to your instructor. Different arts will have different emphasis… and you might find that the two are very much the same thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I prefer heavier bo over light, ...

I find the brass pipe can be used as a good staff. If you can seal both ends, you can fill in with other material to make it solid with you desire weight.

if you can't keep a good control of the weapon it could be knocked out your hands or used against you ...

When you use a staff to fight someone who also has a staff, you should watch out when your staff contact with your opponent's staff, his staff may

- slide along your staff,
- hit on your hand, and
- force you to drop your staff.

This is the most common staff skill and it's called "hand striking staff".

IMO, the best way to hold your staff is to divide your staff in 3 equal parts at point A and B. You then use one hand to hold on spot A, use another hand to hold on spot B. This way you can treat your staff as "2 heads staff" and you can use both ends to strike. When you have to block a heavy blow from your opponent's staff, you can let the center of your staff to touch on your belly and connect your body and your staff as one single unit. If you let go one of your holds (either at A or B), you can swing your staff to the opposite side with 2/3 of the maximum reach.

If you hold your both hands toward one end, you can also use your staff as a spear. When you hold your staff this way, your staff is no longer a "double heads staff" but become a "single head staff".

 

[Chris Parker]

When you use a staff to fight someone who also has a staff, you should watch out when your staff contact with your opponent's staff, his staff may

Staff versus staff isn't necessarily the common form in a number of systems.

- slide along your staff,
- hit on your hand, and
- force you to drop your staff.

This is the most common staff skill and it's called "hand striking staff".

It may well be called that by you, but it's hardly a universal name… nor is that "the most common staff skill". Once again, John, the way you do things is not necessarily the same as the way things are done in many, many other systems.

IMO, the best way to hold your staff is to divide your staff in 3 equal parts at point A and B. You then use one hand to hold on spot A, use another hand to hold on spot B. This way you can treat your staff as "2 heads staff" and you can use both ends to strike. When you have to block a heavy blow from your opponent's staff, you can let the center of your staff to touch on your belly and connect your body and your staff as one single unit. If you let go one of your holds (either at A or B), you can swing your staff to the opposite side with 2/3 of the maximum reach.

If you hold your both hands toward one end, you can also use your staff as a spear. When you hold your staff this way, your staff is no longer a "double heads staff" but become a "single head staff".

What you're describing is pretty standard for Ryukyu Kobudo (Okinawan systems), but is not the way it's done in Japanese systems, or largely in many Chinese systems… once again, the particular methodology is dependant on the system being trained itself. Simply giving what you think is "the best" approach, without understanding the congruence of culture and personal preference in individual systems, you're really missing much of how training in a martial art actually works.

 

[Chris Parker]

I find the brass pipe can be used as a good staff. If you can seal both ends, you can fill in with other material to make it solid with you desire weight.

Hmm, you added a bit...

As a strength training device, sure, good plan… as a staff… terrible, terrible plan. Just terrible.

 

[donald1]

F

Hi Donald,

Grenadier has addressed some of this quite well, I'm going to come from a slightly different angle here.



Okay.



I'd suggest talking to your instructor in the weapon. Some systems will have a distinct preference (my systems state a preference towards Japanese oak, white in the main, sometimes red), others will be a little more lax on specific requirements. You say that you prefer a heavier bo over a light one? Once again, what does your system say… I have a student that is focusing on Bo with me… he bought one without checking with me, and bought a fairly thick and heavy one… which simply didn't work with our system… he had to go out and buy a lighter, thinner one…

That said, hickory has a fairly good following, as it's possibly the closest American hardwood equivalent to Japanese oak, and shares many similar traits. Purplewood is also quite good, but rarer, and can be a bit more expensive. But the main thing is to ask your instructor… and, if you don't have one, then I'd ask what you're doing with the weapon.



See Grenadier's comment here… it can also be a bit more brittle if not treated properly, which is why he's saying it's not really for contact work.



What are you using a sword for? Have you checked with your instructor? If not, do so… if you don't have one, to be frank, I'm rather reticent to give out advice to someone I don't know… they're dangerous items by design… add to that inexperience, and a lack of awareness and knowledge, and it's a recipe for injury.

If you are actually training in an art that uses a sword, how is it used? Is it in Iai? Kumitachi? Tameshigiri? Each will have different preferences and requirements… simply listing fairly vague comments about "good" or "bad" things to look for can't really deal with such ideas, and can only give the impression of usable knowledge, while at the same time commonly doing little but confusing the matter and making people feel that the little they then hear is "the truth". It's not.



Yeah… again, talk to your instructor. Different arts will have different emphasis… and you might find that the two are very much the same thing.

Right now my main contact bo is a thicker oak, he was saying either purple heart or hickory was acceptable

Afcoarse, when I practice kobudo i always takes training seriously. The sword thing is for the most part a collection and most of them I do not have a form for most but usually techniques or take a i have practiced some forms that a sword could also be used in(mostly train with a wooden bokkun sword and a wooden jian for bogua circles (i don't use the metal swords much) the most metal weapon i practice with is a liuyedao but that's only because I do have a form for it
The reason for the question, while I do have some inexperience i know after some time and training I will have the experience to train with a better sword and if I was already saving for one then money won't be a problem when the sword ends up being expensive

 

[Grenadier]

I find the brass pipe can be used as a good staff. If you can seal both ends, you can fill in with other material to make it solid with you desire weight.

The problem with hollow metal, is that it will be susceptible to crushing. Also, a material like brass is going to be a soft metal. The only way to get around the flaws here, is to use a solid filler, and that's going to make it too heavy for practical use.

IMO, the best way to hold your staff is to divide your staff in 3 equal parts at point A and B. You then use one hand to hold on spot A, use another hand to hold on spot B. This way you can treat your staff as "2 heads staff" and you can use both ends to strike. When you have to block a heavy blow from your opponent's staff, you can let the center of your staff to touch on your belly and connect your body and your staff as one single unit. If you let go one of your holds (either at A or B), you can swing your staff to the opposite side with 2/3 of the maximum reach.

If you hold your both hands toward one end, you can also use your staff as a spear. When you hold your staff this way, your staff is no longer a "double heads staff" but become a "single head staff".

Different systems will put a different emphasis on what is the ideal way to hold a bo.

For example, Yamanni Ryu practitioners strike with the long end of the bo, in order to maximize power, but will quickly slide the bo along the hand to block with the shorter end, to maximize control, maximizing the use of leverage in both cases. Since the hands never leave the bo (changing hands is done by flipping the bo over, while sliding the hands along the shaft), you have excellent control over the weapon at all times.

 

[Chris Parker]

Right now my main contact bo is a thicker oak, he was saying either purple heart or hickory was acceptable

Cool. Hickory will probably be easier to come by, at least. Other than that, personal preference… see if you can find examples of both, and see which one you like.

Afcoarse, when I practice kobudo i always takes training seriously. The sword thing is for the most part a collection and most of them I do not have a form for most but usually techniques or take a i have practiced some forms that a sword could also be used in(mostly train with a wooden bokkun sword and a wooden jian for bogua circles (i don't use the metal swords much) the most metal weapon i practice with is a liuyedao but that's only because I do have a form for it
The reason for the question, while I do have some inexperience i know after some time and training I will have the experience to train with a better sword and if I was already saving for one then money won't be a problem when the sword ends up being expensive

Still not sure what you're wanting the sword for… if it's to be part of a collection, then typically you'll want it to be a certain quality… and that'll mean some expense… at the very least. If it's for training, what do you do in your training?

 

[donald1]

Cool. Hickory will probably be easier to come by, at least. Other than that, personal preference… see if you can find examples of both, and see which one you like.



Still not sure what you're wanting the sword for… if it's to be part of a collection, then typically you'll want it to be a certain quality… and that'll mean some expense… at the very least. If it's for training, what do you do in your training?

At this point just techniques and using different weapons in weapon forms (example: tanbo kata - instead of using tando switch weapons with sword)

I will probably not be getting a good sword now but later when I do more sword practice id like to know what I'm looking for

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In regards to hard woods:

Hickory is good and you will probably be very happy with that. Since your instructor recommend it that would be your best choice.

Purple Heart is enjoyable to work with well but has a higher chance of potentially shattering with really hard contact. Just like Kamagong and cocobolo, etc.

The ideal best choice in my opinion is Japanese White Oak. Definitely my favorite among all options. Great strength and resilience in one package! Plus it will last with hard contact over a long period of time. The one thing you do have to understand though is that not all Japanese White Oak is the same. There are some floating around out there on the net for sale that are certainly of a much lower quality. If you ever need this info I am more than happy to provide suppliers to avoid but pretty much any big martial arts supplier that I have encountered is using this cheaper white oak!

Not a fan of ash that I have worked with at all. Light, splinters to easily in my opinion with hard contact and deteriorates rapidly.

The ultimate junk is Red Oak. If you want junk then use this. Only suitable for non-contact training and will probably not last one session with hard contact. Just junk! I would never recommend red oak to anyone under any circumstances. Just garbage! Worst of the worse!

 

[Grenadier]

The ultimate junk is Red Oak. If you want junk then use this. Only suitable for non-contact training and will probably not last one session with hard contact. Just junk! I would never recommend red oak to anyone under any circumstances. Just garbage! Worst of the worse!

It depends on the kind of red oak used. For the most part, I strongly agree, that most of your red oak weapons are going to be made out of very porous red oak wood, and that a lot of these junky weapons need to be treated with wood fillers, in order to get a smooth finish. Once they slap on the cheap varnish and sealant, then most people can't see how truly awful the weapon really is.

On the flip side of the coin, there are some species of red oak that have a much more solid grain, and don't suffer from the porous nature of the cheaper red oak. Unfortunately, this kind of red oak is quite rare, and usually isn't going to be used for making weapons. Shureido uses this kind of red oak in some of their kobudo weapons. Of course, the buyer pay quite a price premium, and for that kind of money, he's better off getting a different wood.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have never trained with anything from Shureido so I have no experience with them. They may be a rare exception. Any red oak I have ever seen used basically was a one time usage with hard contact drills. So I can't in good conscious recommend that anyone train with red oak as in my experience it has been junk.

On another note I utilize rattan a lot and that is a great training tool but with the OP's question I did not feel it was what he was looking for. Rattan has great shock absorbing capacities and it frays rather than shatters. Making it an ideal training tool for extremely hard contact!

I also have no experience with white wax wood so I could not give a recommendation for it but I have heard it is descent.

 

[Chris Parker]

At this point just techniques and using different weapons in weapon forms (example: tanbo kata - instead of using tando switch weapons with sword)

I will probably not be getting a good sword now but later when I do more sword practice id like to know what I'm looking for

Yeah… that really doesn't tell me much…

What kind of "techniques"? Depending on the system, you might not ever actually use a metal sword…

The ultimate junk is Red Oak. If you want junk then use this. Only suitable for non-contact training and will probably not last one session with hard contact. Just junk! I would never recommend red oak to anyone under any circumstances. Just garbage! Worst of the worse!

As Grenadier has done, I'm going to disagree with this, with a caveat.

Most of what is sold as "red oak" is over dried, cheap, red stained lower grade woods… it's not actually red oak at all. Actual red oak (Japanese) is the preferred material of a number of Ryu-ha, over white oak, as it has a greater overall density, giving the weapons created with it a greater weight. The grain isn't quite as tight as white oak, which some systems prefer as well… others, obviously, are the opposite.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

My experience is that any red oak I have worked with (albeit very rare) was junk. Just craptastic! Not hard to understand. I'm not saying that there might not
be some good red oak out there. Just not worth wasting my personal time with it!


The Japanese systems that I am very familiar with prefer white oak and fukuro shinai. Obviously there is a reason for this as white oak is a fantastic material to work with
and has great strength and is very resilient! When I was last in Japan I stocked up bought my own training tools in white oak and shipped them
back to my house. That was not a mistake as I still have all these training tools years later!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Aww just get a Chinese white wax staff and be done with it

 

[Chris Parker]

My experience is that any red oak I have worked with (albeit very rare) was junk. Just craptastic! Not hard to understand. I'm not saying that there might not
be some good red oak out there. Just not worth wasting my personal time with it!

Honestly, Brian, I don't think you've had experience with actual red oak… more the "fake" red oak that I mentioned above. By the same token, I've seen a lot of items sold as "white oak", which is really just bleached hardwoods of some form… they're just as bad as the fake red oak.

You just need to get better gear… anything red oak from here I'd highly recommend… I have a fair bit myself (and a lot of their white oak items… and some sunuke&#8230 Bokken Swords | Bokken Training Swords for Aikido and Kendo

The Japanese systems that I am very familiar with prefer white oak and fukuro shinai. Obviously there is a reason for this as white oak is a fantastic material to work with
and has great strength and is very resilient! When I was last in Japan I stocked up bought my own training tools in white oak and shipped them
back to my house. That was not a mistake as I still have all these training tools years later!

Okay… do you know why they prefer white oak? Or fukuro shinai? I mean… red oak is very resilient, and has great strength as well…

And, out of interest, which are the systems you're very familiar with that prefer fukuro shinai? What design? Just curious here...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Chris,

Most of the red oak out there sold is just junk. (I feel like a broken record here) I have seen it, felt it and witnessed people training with it. Heck I can even spot poor red oak by looking at a video clip of someone training with it. Nor do I feel that the OP should even investigate red oak. I like you have also seen poor white oak. Typically from a big martial arts supplier trying to cash in on its reputation. Though this is more rare.


Chris, I do not need to experience better red oak. Everyone I train with utilizes white oak and fukuro shinai. I have great training tools in white oak bought in Japan by me personally. The absolute best you can get. Why would I switch or even be interested at this point? When everyone I train with either uses white oak of fukuro shinai.

As for fukuro shinai I have personal handmade items by a master craftsman who makes them just for me to the highest caliber. He only makes them for me and they are no longer for sale internationally. When someone is looking for great fukuro shinai that are for sale I recommend them to Tim Bathurst located in Australia at Tombo Supplies: Bujinkan Bathurst Dojo » Tombo Supplies I have some of these as well and they are great! Not just good, great. Tim makes a very fine product here.

As for systems I am familiar with Chris you know some of them already. I do not even know why you are asking?

 

[donald1]

I

Yeah… that really doesn't tell me much…

What kind of "techniques"? Depending on the system, you might not ever actually use a metal sword…


As Grenadier has done, I'm going to disagree with this, with a caveat.

Most of what is sold as "red oak" is over dried, cheap, red stained lower grade woods… it's not actually red oak at all. Actual red oak (Japanese) is the preferred material of a number of Ryu-ha, over white oak, as it has a greater overall density, giving the weapons created with it a greater weight. The grain isn't quite as tight as white oak, which some systems prefer as well… others, obviously, are the opposite.

Right now the only sword form i practice the only sword i practice with is jian for bogua circles (but it's wooden) maybe not in the style I'm in now but when I get more experience and training and eventually train in different styles maybe one that does but whether or not I have a form for it. I would still like to add more to the collection but would like to know if there good or junk

To the techniques questions, mostly practicing forms and sometimes using a different weapons or just combinations that could be used in weapon sparring

 

[Badger1777]

I got 4 questions
1. Which Is better for long for hard hits, durable, also I prefer heavier bo over light, which is better purple heart or hickory or would you suggest a different
2. Ash wood, I heard of it might have even seen a bo made of it but don't know anything of it. Is it good? Just curious on that question

Is this for training, or for killing someone? I've seen totally untrained thugs do a lot of damage with rubbish bits of pine wood, or pool cues. My point is, if you are going to hit someone with a what is effectively a big stick, and you are thinking about which big stick will deliver the most force, well ANY big stick is going to deliver a lot of force, so if its for training purpose, to master an art without actually exploding someone's skull, does it matter that much how tough the stick is?