weapon in general

[terryl965]

I would like to get the opion on everybody views about weapon training for students, do you start at a certain age or do you start with a certain belt color, or both and what weapon do you start your students off with??? GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[Andrew Green]

no age, no belt

Anyone can do it right from day one.

Kids will start off with sticks on nunchaku (hey, they're fun )

Adults usually sticks.

but it really doesn't make much difference, you can start at anytime, at any age, and with just about any weapon.

 

[kenpoworks]

Yeah! and then a baseball bat or a lump of wood with a nail in it or a long metal chain with a large iron ball on the end..................
Any weapon any time, from day one, just pick it up and away you go, I don't think so,
WHAT ARE YOU ON!?
Rich

 

[Rich Parsons]

First Day

First Class

The student oucks up a rattan cane / stick and begins training.

:asian:

 

[Flatlander]

Yeah! and then a baseball bat or a lump of wood with a nail in it or a long metal chain with a large iron ball on the end..................
Any weapon any time, from day one, just pick it up and away you go, I don't think so,
WHAT ARE YOU ON!?
Rich

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the methodology of martial education as it pertains to Modern Arnis. Now, I can't speak for specifically what arts or methods Mr. Green teaches at his dojo, but I CAN explain how and why this method of training is used in Modern Arnis. One of the cornerstone principles of the art is the fact that there is a direct and very obvious translation in the movements whether emptyhand or with a weapon. Similarily, the gross motor movements from weapon to weapon are the same as well. Therefore, it is to the student's advantage to begin training with a cane or sibat (or training knife) as soon as possible, so as to be able to make those connections, thereby accelerating the learning process.

I would particularly like to point out the example of the sibat (long pole). When a reasonably new student picks up a sibat and begins to learn how to move it appropriately, they get the added benefit of being able to involve their entire body in the process, coordinating upper and lower body, and right and left sides. All too often, this is a skill which must "come with time" in other arts; in Modern Arnis, we begin to explore this immediately. All of these skills then begin to benefit your emptyhand movement. Coordination of the entire body is important in the martial journey, is it not?

I would also like to comment on the practicality of teaching a new student the blade. I think that most would agree that in order to defend against a blade, knowing how to use one will bring us much further ahead in the learning curve. Teaching the new folks how to work the blade brings them much further along in their ability to defend, gives them edge awareness, and makes them more comfortable in the presence of a knife. I cannot see how this is a bad thing for one's training by any stretch of the imagination.

How about putting a cane/baton in the hand of a new student.... how can they benefit from this? Well, as I stated previously, many of the emptyhand skills translate directly from the cane work. And a cane has weight. So, if a student is spending time working the cane movements, they are also strengthening all of the muscles that they use for such, thereby adding to the effectiveness of their overall ablilities. When the cane is seen as an extension of the hand, and we begin to learn about disarming and locking, it makes the teaching of these emptyhand skills very, very easy. The student, in understanding the cane applications, is able to once again translate this all into emptyhand. Capitalizing on the leverage and larger movements with the cane assists them in discovering all of those smaller, emptyhand concepts.

Of course, you could choose to keep them all in the dark until they have thrown enough money at your school before you let them play with the toys, each to their own.

But I, personally, can see exactly what Mr. Green is on. He's right on. :asian:

 

[kenpoworks]

That fine ,I have a backround in Butchery First day used a boneing Knife.I suppose Lumberjacks use axes and chainsaws first day.

It was the "at any age, and with just about any weapon" that got me.

If i went to a weapon specific club, I would expect to pick up a stick first lesson under some sort of qualified supevision.

I felt that the perspective of the advice given was a little misguided, I am sure that Baton twirler's dont view their "stick" as a weapon, but it could be.

"any weapon, any age" well maybe it maybe ok for some, but I have seen "Knife Experts" who would come off 2nd best to a side of beef and they charge for the privelage.

Kids and toys ok.

Kids and weapons , don't plant that seed.

 

[kenpoworks]

"Apparently you are unfamiliar with the methodology of martial education as it pertains to Modern Arnis".

Whoops sorry , "any weapon any age", I think "weapon" is the bug bear here, for me anyway.
ps
Thanks for the educational on Modern Arnis A respected system That I first encountered in the early 80s.

 

[Andrew Green]

On second thought, what are those fencing coaches thinking, I mean training people in swords from day one? and kids too? or those rifle groups that let kids handle firearms?

They should be made to do empty hand kata for years before picking up a weapon!!!

But then Apparently I'm on something, wish I knew what it was?

Anyways, just cause you can't teach kids to use weapons safely, don't assume that it just can't be done.

btw - A little suprised I am, Don't find too many instructors that teach the weapons you listed. But I'm assuming you do?

 

[terryl965]

The question is how do different system and or Master and teacher handle this in the Dojaang, I myself start them after a couple of weeks just so they understand the principle involved first and then it is Bo or Screamers*short stick) then Nunchucks and so on. Thanks

 

[Flatlander]

Whoops sorry , "any weapon any age", I think "weapon" is the bug bear here, for me anyway.

Yes, I see where you're going with that. By the same token, I wouldn't teach combatives to anyone until they were able to demonstrate the ability to handle the knowledge. I wouldn't teach a criminal either.

ps
Thanks for the educational on Modern Arnis A respected system That I first encountered in the early 80s.

No problem, I'm here to contribute as positively as I can.

 

[AnimEdge]

I suppose Lumberjacks use axes and chainsaws first day.

How else would they learn?

If the kids in the dojo cant be trusted to handle a stick then i dont think they should be in there at all

If you are referring to a kid after class showing of to a friend and is like look what i can do with a bat and hits himself or his friend then chances are they deserved it anyways

 

[Sapper6]

to say to a student, "sorry, you're incapable of learning the nunchuku but perfectly able to learn this groin strike or throat chop" is kinda hypocritical dont you think? geez, it's the martial arts not tap dance. in our system, we learn a different weapon with every belt level. now of course, the lower the belt, the less complicated the weapon is to use; if you can understand that.

i can understand not wanting to put a double edged dagger in the hands of a 12 year old but there's certainly nothing wrong with teaching them the kubotan, nunchuku or the staff.

as most are aware, there are some systems out there that dont seem to trust or believe their students are capable of learning weapons pre-black belt or even pre-brown belt, american kenpo being one of them. it's just sad thats all. at least teach the staff or double sticks. these weapon types are so practical and exists in a variety of different ways :asian:

 

[KyleShort]

to say to a student, "sorry, you're incapable of learning the nunchuku but perfectly able to learn this groin strike or throat chop" is kinda hypocritical dont you think? geez, it's the martial arts not tap dance. in our system, we learn a different weapon with every belt level. now of course, the lower the belt, the less complicated the weapon is to use; if you can understand that.

i can understand not wanting to put a double edged dagger in the hands of a 12 year old but there's certainly nothing wrong with teaching them the kubotan, nunchuku or the staff.

as most are aware, there are some systems out there that dont seem to trust or believe their students are capable of learning weapons pre-black belt or even pre-brown belt, american kenpo being one of them. it's just sad thats all. at least teach the staff or double sticks. these weapon types are so practical and exists in a variety of different ways :asian:

I don't believe that this response holds true to the statements that Kenpoworks made. As a side, it seems to me like there has been a rather caustic edge to some of the responses to Kenpowork's postsand I for one appreciate his composed and understanding acceptence of it.

Now on to the original point. From what I read, Kenpoworks argues the notion that any weapon should be taught to anyone at any age. I would agree with that arguement. While I feel that students should be strongly focused on weapon training from day one, at any age, I don't believe that they should be taught certain weapons.

Many will say that empty hand training enhances your weapons skills, but the same can be argued for weapon training. Effectively combating with or against a weapon exposes you to a new level of combat training. The need for timing and distancing is great, and the training you recieve in hand/eye and mental reaction speed can't be matched with empty hand (I understand that this point can be argued). It also opens you up to the realities of facing a weapon, and even if you only learn to defend against a stick the enhancements in reaction speed, and exposure to danger and adrenaline will better prepare you for facing a knife, sword or gun.

However, with that having been said, I would not advocate teaching a child to quick draw a delica, feint a head move and cut the femoral artery. This is simply unethical, because most children have not matured to the level that they can understand and respect what they are learning. In addition, I would not advocate teaching edged weapons (read. iato vrs. shinken) before teaching a blunt version...in fact nearly all arts recognize that students need to learn how to use a training weapon before moving on to a live one. Boken before Katana, rattan garrote before barong etc.

 

[Sapper6]

I don't believe that this response holds true to the statements that Kenpoworks made. As a side, it seems to me like there has been a rather caustic edge to some of the responses to Kenpowork's postsand I for one appreciate his composed and understanding acceptence of it.

Now on to the original point. From what I read, Kenpoworks argues the notion that any weapon should be taught to anyone at any age. I would agree with that arguement. While I feel that students should be strongly focused on weapon training from day one, at any age, I don't believe that they should be taught certain weapons.

Many will say that empty hand training enhances your weapons skills, but the same can be argued for weapon training. Effectively combating with or against a weapon exposes you to a new level of combat training. The need for timing and distancing is great, and the training you recieve in hand/eye and mental reaction speed can't be matched with empty hand (I understand that this point can be argued). It also opens you up to the realities of facing a weapon, and even if you only learn to defend against a stick the enhancements in reaction speed, and exposure to danger and adrenaline will better prepare you for facing a knife, sword or gun.

However, with that having been said, I would not advocate teaching a child to quick draw a delica, feint a head move and cut the femoral artery. This is simply unethical, because most children have not matured to the level that they can understand and respect what they are learning. In addition, I would not advocate teaching edged weapons (read. iato vrs. shinken) before teaching a blunt version...in fact nearly all arts recognize that students need to learn how to use a training weapon before moving on to a live one. Boken before Katana, rattan garrote before barong etc.

i will agree with you about the "cut the femoral artery" bit. also, rest assured i wasn't aiming my reply specifically toward what kenpoworks had to say. my statement about american kenpo is not based on hear-say but rather on personal experience. as far as weapon training and younger students go, please note my reference to more practical, even sometimes, less-lethal weaponry. :asian:

 

[kenpoworks]

Adrew Green "Anyway , just cause you can't teach kids to use weapons safely, don't assume that it just can't be done".

You seem to do that a lot in this thread ASSUME that is, actually Andrew all I did was state that I thought that your advice was just a little too random and open ended, looking back at my initial post, I think that my reply may have been a little too reactive.

I teach single/ double rattan cane, Bo, jo and nunchaku to any age or level that shows good attitude.

I also train with a knife and have done for a long, long time and have a healthy respect for it as a weapon.

AnimEdge "If the kids in the dojo cant be trusted to handle a stick then i don't think they should be in there at all"

I am interested, what sort of test do you carry out on the first day of training to assess the character of the prospective student before you put a stick in their hands.


Sapper6 " I can understand not wanting to put a double edged dagger in the hands of a 12 year"

Exactly

"less-lethal weaponry" Specified weapons, great.



KyleShort" I don't believe that they should be taught certain weapons".

Thanks, that was what I was attempting to say in my awkward way.

To recap... The advice was.... "any age ,any level anytime and just about any weapon"..., well if weapons are defined in the above posts as just Canes, Sticks Staffs, then I suppose the advice applies, from personal experience I would hold back on the nunchaku for a while. But, any training with weapon that has a point or an edge should be held back, IMO .

Oh!, and BTW Andrew I agree if you want to learn fencing go to a fencing club, if you want learn to shoot go to a gun club, if you want to learn to tap go to dance class and if you really want to learn to use a knife become a butcher.

How did the Kenpo curriculum creep in here, don’t assume that because you have been to one club you have been to them all, To me the Kenpo System is one "Big Idea" to be explored and should not be pinned down to a list of belt level requirements, but unfortuanately it often is.
Respectfully Rich.

 

[DeLamar.J]

The best weapons to learn with first are the ball bat, crobar, and knife because those are the weapons that are most availible if you ever needed one. Then mayby a short jo staff, because a stick could be a good substitute and eaisy to get a hold of.

 

[Sin]

White belt-any age
weapion- any, you gotta buy

 

[loki09789]

On second thought, what are those fencing coaches thinking, I mean training people in swords from day one? and kids too? or those rifle groups that let kids handle firearms?

They should be made to do empty hand kata for years before picking up a weapon!!!

But then Apparently I'm on something, wish I knew what it was?

Anyways, just cause you can't teach kids to use weapons safely, don't assume that it just can't be done.

btw - A little suprised I am, Don't find too many instructors that teach the weapons you listed. But I'm assuming you do?

There is a responsibility factor to teaching weapons to anyone because of the increased damage and range/scope of affect that a weapon can have relative to empty hand.

I have a minimum age of 13 in my class because any younger and I question whether the student has the developmental ability and maturity to be responsible with that training/tool. Firearms are different because usually the shooting and tool/gun are done in an isolated context and it isn't so readily available once they leave that setting. W/non-ballistic weapons training (FMA in particular) the idea is translation and environmental weapon adaptation of the training... which means that the training and weapon are all over the place. Same with fencing, a sport weapon with a sport application. Martial arts weapons are still pretty directly connected to the 'real world' context.

I say get them using tools as soon as possible. It develops strength, proprioceptivity and kinesthetic awareness faster and creates challenge and variety to what could be seen as 'boring repetition.' I use balls, medicine balls, rattan sticks, elastic bands.... all as strength, conditioning, mind/body connection enhancing tools. They might not all be 'weapons' but they fit into my goal of self defense oriented martial arts.

 

[sasquatchnaruto]

our school we evaluate you skill and if you skilled enough it starts at yellow belt with sword(bokken) bo and nunchuka

 

[Sin]

We have to buy our own weapions, so that my sensei knows that we are serious about learning how to wield it, and so that we would respect it and appresiate it more.