Most WC groups practice some throws out of chi sau, but this guy makes it a big part of his art. Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI&feature=youtu.be
WC with throws and takedowns....
- Thread starter geezer
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WingChunIan
Blue Belt
looks nice but I have two issues with it. Firstly IMHO it isn't wing chun, the footwork and bodyweight distribution are alien to wing chun and from several of the positions where WZP elected to go for the throw it would have been far easier to strike his partner and the strikes would have been smaller more economic movements. Secondly whilst these type of throws look great with a compliant partner the reality is that they rarely work on someone actually resisting hence why you hardly ever see them in MMA, judo or wrestling. There were several times in the clip where the partner allowed his cog to be compromised instead of simply stepping back to negate the trip. Oh and I also question the wisdom of turning your back on an opponent in order to execute a throw.
Still a nice clip and a good watch
Still a nice clip and a good watch
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Minor error - Quite a few of them work, namely the large outer reaps and some of the tosses, but in different contexts to what hes using them. Its a bit hard to control and restrain someone during a fight, but you can use control and restraint to control someone and prevent them from engaging you (apply the same logic to the throws). Hes using that training as a format. Im not entirely convinced its the best way, but hey, whatever works for him.
StormShadow
Blue Belt
Whether or not these types of throws exist in wing chun, they certainly need to be if not. Great stuff!
No reason why they "don't exist," just so long as they stay within the principles of the system. After all, we're not really learning a collection of "techniques" so much as principles and concepts. The "techniques" we have are merely expressions of those principles, and not vice-versa.
While I generally believe that the simplest method is the best, and it's probably not a good idea to be trying to throw an opponent, if you just so happen to get into a position where you can't necessarily hit the opponent, but can throw or take his balance, there's no reason you shouldn't - so long as you don't try anything that will get you in trouble. I'm not experienced enough to judge whether some of what he did in the video was right or wrong, but I thought it was interesting and looked applicable.
While I generally believe that the simplest method is the best, and it's probably not a good idea to be trying to throw an opponent, if you just so happen to get into a position where you can't necessarily hit the opponent, but can throw or take his balance, there's no reason you shouldn't - so long as you don't try anything that will get you in trouble. I'm not experienced enough to judge whether some of what he did in the video was right or wrong, but I thought it was interesting and looked applicable.
Danny T
Senior Master
Several of the takedowns or trips we do within the training in our lineage. Though some of the throws may be effective I question most being out of Wing Chun due to the weight distribution and body positioning. However, I also acknowledge that in reality when under pressure many moves simple happen and what is available within movement simply happens. Learning some possibilities when caught in such a situation is fine but I would not call it Wing Chun.
I was wondering about the same thing. But then, I've seen people who practice 50/50, 70/30, and practically 100/0, and even those who say "it doesn't really matter as long as you can lift your front leg." In any case though, you can't always maintain any set weight distribution all of the time, and you needn't so long as you maintain your structure. Some of the throws in the latter half of the video do seem to break that structure by leaning with the upper body, though.
Edit: Actually, the second part of the video he seems to be practicing something that is altogether different from Wing Chun, but kind of "mixing it in." It looks a bit like Judo, but more... Chinese? I'd like to know if this is some other Chinese art. In the first half he seems to stick to Wing Chun structure fairly well, though.
StormShadow
Blue Belt
I think chin-na is apart of our curriculum at my kwoon. I'm not entirely sure but I believe it is taught and shown how to mix it in with wing chun. I could be wrong though.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
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Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
Interesting-
However if you have good wing chun balance, turns and stepping you can throw when the opportunity is there.
Depending on the most efficient option of the moment you can strike, defend, break, joint or cavity work or throw
or combinations thereof imo.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Nothing against Wang Zhipeng, I think he is rather skilled, but the second person I trained Wing Chun with said there were all sorts of takedowns, throws and locks in Wing Chun and he even showed a couple. But they all were very relaxed, natural and maintained a Wing Chun type of structure and root.
This... makes my eyes dirty.
WZP is implementing Shuai Jiao into his WC. While i would relish the opportunity to train SJ, to me it does not have much place in WC.
Grappling of any kind by it's nature uses it's COG in a way totally incompatible with WC's aims and structural boundaries. We're "anti-wrestlers" as it were (you can't hook my limbs or touch my COG).
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StormShadow
Blue Belt
It's said that all CMA have these throws, locks and takedowns. I have to agree, they must exist in WC as well. It looks very effective to me.
The first time I met my si-fu, he stressed to me that WT has all 4 of these components, but for whatever reason, the HK style concentrates on the striking aspects mostly.
He also told me that when he was training in HK back in the day, LT would show throwing applications using WT concepts and that LT was like a judo master when it came to throws.
So, what does it take for throws and locks and takedowns to be WC compliant? Why must the WC stance an structure be rigidly maintained? Can you not make adaptations for the situation? Sometimes shifting your weight and stance has a large effect on weather or not you do the throw or take down efficiently.
So I guess my question is, why is WC so rigid about there stance and structure, and how do you fit proper WC approved throws in?
I guess it would help but does anyone have any videos of true WC style throws??
So I guess my question is, why is WC so rigid about there stance and structure, and how do you fit proper WC approved throws in?
I guess it would help but does anyone have any videos of true WC style throws??
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
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Wing chun is not rigid. You first learn how ro stand properly and be balanced while learning hand motions...then you learn how to turn, shift and move..then you learn how
to handle unorthodox positions. Throwing is NOT against wing chun principles. You hit when you can, break joints when you can and throw when the opportunity is there.
I dont have a video. But if you look at my wing chun article in the finale issue ( as an ikkustrated book) entitled "Asian Martial Arts" you will see the beginning of two throws
in a demo with an All American Greco Roman wrestler.
WingChunIan
Blue Belt
Wing Chun does IMO incorporate unbalancing work but again IMO not throws and certainly not the type shown by WZP in the video which are straight out of Shuo Jiao. Firstly the low weight over the front leg position is not found in Wing Chun. These throwing actions are not found in any of the forms, neither are they mentioned in any of the kuit kuen.
WingChunIan
Blue Belt
Wing Chun isn't rigid in its stances but it is very clear on facing the opponent and wide impractical and immobile stances just do not figure in the system.
