Watered Down Martial Arts

Champ-Pain

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I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:

Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!

Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill others - just to make it an Olympic sport?

I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that actually works in real life?

Perhaps they should do away with the Olympic games instead. What do you think?
 

tinker1

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I agree completely. Olympic TKD is a joke... one kick, and one kick only in all the matches I've watched. Round kick, ... that's about it. Oh, I did see an axe kick one or two times.

Basically if it isn't going to give them a point in the match, they don't practice it.

Oh, and don't forget that a punch to the face is illegal in Olympic TKD... so they don't practice defending against what is the most common attack they will face in real life.
 
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Champ-Pain

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I agree completely. Olympic TKD is a joke... one kick, and one kick only in all the matches I've watched. Round kick, ... that's about it. Oh, I did see an axe kick one or two times.

Basically if it isn't going to give them a point in the match, they don't practice it.

Oh, and don't forget that a punch to the face is illegal in Olympic TKD... so they don't practice defending against what is the most common attack they will face in real life.
I know, it's absolutely ridiculous. WTF? Is it still considered a form of M/A by anyone other than TKD practioners? Like I said before - traditional TKD was used in the Korean armed forces and was considered to be effective, but this new "Olympic TKD" - resembles a dance more than a M/A style.
 

Carol

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Personally as someone who prefers the "battlefield arts" (as my Silat system-head describes), I don't care for watered down arts....at least for me.

people train for different reasons. People train for competition, for fun, for fitness, for a family exercise...I don't personally have an issue with why other people train. I just have an issue when it becomes so widespread that it is difficult to find rigorous arts out of fears of lawsuits, freaked out karate moms, a grisly clientele, or what have you.

Does a 4 year old have the same needs as a 31 year old? Does a bullied child have the same needs as the gifted athlete who just loves to compete? Does the woman trying to escape her abusive boyfriend have the same need as the parent who wants to have fun with their kids? Does the guy trying to put himself through school by driving a cab in the city have the same needs as the teen hoping that their MA background will show prospective colleges how well-rounded they are?

I happen to think there is room in Martial Arts for all of these people....but I'm not sure if the common approach of a homogenized one-size-fits-all program is the best way to teach everyone.
 
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tinker1

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Personally as someone who prefers the "battlefield arts" (as my Silat system-head describes), I don't care for watered down arts....at least for me.

people train for different reasons. People train for competition, for fun, for fitness, for a family exercise...I don't personally have an issue with why other people train. I just have an issue when it becomes so widespread that it is difficult to find rigorous arts out of fears of lawsuits, freaked out karate moms, a grisly clientele, or what have you.

Does a 4 year old have the same needs as a 31 year old? Does a bullied child have the same needs as the gifted athlete who just loves to compete? Does the woman trying to escape her abusive boyfriend have the same need as the parent who wants to have fun with their kids? Does the guy trying to put himself through school by driving a cab in the city have the same needs as the teen hoping that their MA background will show prospective colleges how well-rounded they are?

I happen to think there is room in Martial Arts for all of these people....but I'm not sure if the common approach of a homogenized one-size-fits-all program is the best way to teach everyone.

Good points, very well made.

At what point do we loose our soul though?

When the martial art looses it's validity for the street, when it fails to build character and strength of resolve, when it fails to build physical and mental toughness... does it remain a martial art at all?

Sure, yes, there is room for every one to find a niche I suppose, but not at the expense of loosing the soul of the art.

Some things should be hard though. Some things should take all you have to attain. Some things should force you out of your comfort zone, push your boundaries, and yes, make you afraid. We've all heard the story of how to reach your hearts desire you must be willing to reach through a wall of flame. Martial Arts should be that way.

Some things should not be for everyone. For those unwilling to reach through that wall of flame, I suggest maybe they should try baseball.. or golf.
 

ralphmcpherson

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In defence of oympic tkd (as has been pointed out repeatedly in the tkd section recently), MOST tkd schools do teach the unwatered down stuff and have separate classes for those wishing to persue the olympic style sparring. I train non olympic style tkd but the olympic style schools in my area teach 'normal tkd' as the weekly class and then run 'sport tkd' training on a saturday morning and thursday night just for those interested in competing in olympic style events. You can get to black belt in these clubs without ever attending one of the designated sport tkd sessions. For successful or up and coming athletes there are specialty clubs where they can train sport tkd exclusively. The idea that you can walk into any tkd dojang and everyone is bouncing around doing flashy kicks with their hands by their sides is a fallacy (at least where I live and from what Ive read from instructors in the tkd section its the same over there). As long as the 'watered down' version is an 'option only', then I have no problem with it. And this comes from a tkdist who hates olympic sparring.
 
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StagTown

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Oh, and don't forget that a punch to the face is illegal in Olympic TKD... so they don't practice defending against what is the most common attack they will face in real life.

Its a ruleset for a sport that as a martial arts history! olympic TKD as nothing to do with street defence and if where talking watered down combat arts you can add boxing to the list!
 

ralphmcpherson

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Its a ruleset for a sport that as a martial arts history! olympic TKD as nothing to do with street defence and if where talking watered down combat arts you can add boxing to the list!
Exactly. Its full contact with both punches and kicks and knockouts. If thats not a MA then a lot of other MA's would also no longer be considered martial arts either. I did form of karate as a kid and it was no contact sparring so it would also be considered not to be an MA. And make no mistake, those olympic guys kick a lot harder and a lot faster than you'd think. I dont think they'd have too much problems looking after themself on the street if required.
 

Sensei Payne

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I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:

Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!

Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill others - just to make it an Olympic sport?

I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that actually works in real life?

Perhaps they should do away with the Olympic games instead. What do you think?


Lets keep in mind that no matter how "watered Down" the techniques may be...lets not dismiss they physical condition that these martial artists have to get in, in order to compete at the Olympic Level. It takes a whole lot of hard work, blood, sweat and tears

For that I give them all the respect one could muster for a fellow Martial Artist.

Now would I train in self defense that way...of course not...but I am quite sure that these Olympic Athletes can and will defend themselves with it, because thats what they train!
 
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Champ-Pain

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2 Points I'd like to make in reponse to some possible misunderstanding.

1) I don't and never had the intent of disrespecting any athlete of any sport - only the sport itself is the object of my criticism and only because of the watering down effect. I completely understand how hard they train and how much discipline and sacrafice they put forward, in order to make it to the upper level, the "Olympics". I've never questioned that fact.

2) In my area, I see alot of ATA (American TKD Association) and Total M/A (Bally Fitness Centers) - I'm sorry, but it's a freakin' joke! My dojo is located side by side to a Bally, and I see these 7, 8, 9 y/o, walking around with brown and black belts. I just nod my head and chuckle. They can't even walk without tripping over themselves - and they're wearing such high ranks - give me a break! - Great marketing though, lots of students - many more than in my sport (Judo). How do they do it?
 

Sensei Payne

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In my area, I see alot of ATA (American TKD Association) and Total M/A (Bally Fitness Centers) - I'm sorry, but it's a freakin' joke! My dojo is located side by side to a Bally, and I see these 7, 8, 9 y/o, walking around with brown and black belts. I just nod my head and chuckle. They can't even walk without tripping over themselves - and they're wearing such high ranks - give me a break! - Great marketing though, lots of students - many more than in my sport (Judo). How do they do it?

Its called a "Mcdojo"

The thing is...if they are touting that they are a traditional Martial Arts school...then yeah, I get exactly what your saying.

But if they straight out say its a "fitness class" then by all means...they can enjoy that..I think thats what the true selling point is..especially in places like fitness centers and gyms...people don't go to learn kata or technique, they go to get thin and fit.
 
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Champ-Pain

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Its called a "Mcdojo"

The thing is...if they are touting that they are a traditional Martial Arts school...then yeah, I get exactly what your saying.

But if they straight out say its a "fitness class" then by all means...they can enjoy that..I think thats what the true selling point is..especially in places like fitness centers and gyms...people don't go to learn kata or technique, they go to get thin and fit.
ATA is an organization with many individual locations all over the area. Total M/A is a different entity from Bally, but rents space from them and teach Olympic TKD only, nothing to do with fitness workouts, in either case. They advertise themselves as a M/A school - they should teach something that resembles M/A IMHO.
 

frank raud

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Its a ruleset for a sport that as a martial arts history! olympic TKD as nothing to do with street defence and if where talking watered down combat arts you can add boxing to the list!
Why would you consider boxing watered down?
 

JohnEdward

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When anything becomes a sport it becomes watered down. Gymnastics is a prime example, along with TDK and Judo. Many traditional Japanese martial arts abhor their arts becoming sport, and there is allot of argument for the pros and cons. It is considered a fate worse than death. Yet, some arts should be a sport, like BJJ, Judo, and Muay Thai, also. These were intended to be sports and I think that is the rub. In terms of Judo, yes the 1964 Olympics did water down Judo, which was intend to be a more intensive and combative sport like MMA. Maybe, it is time now for the old Judo to come back?
 

Sensei Payne

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ATA is an organization with many individual locations all over the area. Total M/A is a different entity from Bally, but rents space from them and teach Olympic TKD only, nothing to do with fitness workouts, in either case. They advertise themselves as a M/A school - they should teach something that resembles M/A IMHO.


Understood and Agreed...it would be different if they were saying they focus on fitness alone...I mean I teach traditional Karate classes...but I also offer a cardio kickboxing class as well.. so :idunno:
 

Blade96

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i dont care if they want to water something down in order to practice it as a sport. I have no problem with it.

Actually, i do think, Ya take something intended to kill somebody, you have to water it down to do it as a sport instead. Otherwise you can, you know, kill somebody.

I don't mind at all if people want to do it as a sport instead of training to fight and kill.
 

oftheherd1

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Why would you consider boxing watered down?


I am no expert on much of anything, much less on boxing. But wasn't the original olympic boxing and wrestling often fought to the death; and that acceptable? I don't think they used gloves either.
 

tinker1

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i dont care if they want to water something down in order to practice it as a sport. I have no problem with it.

Actually, i do think, Ya take something intended to kill somebody, you have to water it down to do it as a sport instead. Otherwise you can, you know, kill somebody.

I don't mind at all if people want to do it as a sport instead of training to fight and kill.

Personally I would call that a "martial SPORT" though, rather than a "martial ART". I believe there has to be some distinction between the two - if that is clearly done, then I don't have an issue with it.

The issue for me is that these martial sports instructors tell their students that they are learning an art. To me, this is like telling baseball players that they are learning Escrima and should be able to defend themselves using a bat. While these players are in good shape (with baseball that may be debatable), and their familiarity with a bat may help them should they ever are in a self defense situation, I would not call what they are doing an art.

ART has an aesthetic and a certain tradition, I don't find that in sport.

For me, this debate goes beyond viability of self defense and speaks more to the mind set and training focus of the teaching / learning process.
 

Blade96

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Personally I would call that a "martial SPORT" though, rather than a "martial ART". I believe there has to be some distinction between the two - if that is clearly done, then I don't have an issue with it.

The issue for me is that these martial sports instructors tell their students that they are learning an art. To me, this is like telling baseball players that they are learning Escrima and should be able to defend themselves using a bat. While these players are in good shape (with baseball that may be debatable), and their familiarity with a bat may help them should they ever are in a self defense situation, I would not call what they are doing an art.

ART has an aesthetic and a certain tradition, I don't find that in sport.

For me, this debate goes beyond viability of self defense and speaks more to the mind set and training focus of the teaching / learning process.

Sport is a type of art.

But yeah I'd like a distinction between the kind done for sport and the type of martial arts learned as its true form.
 

Grenadier

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The more important thing here, is whether or not a particular school is giving its students a good perceived value.

Some people are looking to compete at the Olympic level for Tae Kwon Do. If that's what they want, and if a particular school is offering to train them specifically for that type of competition, then more power to that school. They're simply doing what they want to do, and that it serves their students' interests.

The way I see it, the above practitioners of such methods are in their own world, and as long as they stay in their own world, it's none of my business to tell them how compete.

However, if they step into, say, a USA-NKF style competition, then they're going to find that they're sorely lacking in terms of having the right tools. In those cases, I'm not going to feel badly about criticizing them for exposing their entire backsides.
 

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