Watching Youtube makes me realized how much I've changed....

geezer

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Watching Youtube makes me realize how much I have changed in my approach ....or perhaps, how much others have changed and moved away from what my old Chinese sifu originally taught?

I came across following clip with a European instructor demonstrating the "WT" version of Wing Chun's second form Chum Kiu. I originally trained in the WT lineage under the Chinese head of this same"WT" system in the USA and also worked with several other skilled practitioners of this system, some of whom also trained in Europe.

Short story: The last iteration of this form I practiced follows exactly the same sequence as the one in the following video ....but the way I have come to do this form is sooo different. It has a very different flow and feel ...to the point where it's almost a different "style". And honestly, I would not want to change to move like the guy in the video.


BTW, No, I do not speak German, but my attention here is upon his performance, not his commentary. Also, if you do a different version of Chum Kiu from a different branch of WC, I would be very interested in your assessment of the way this form is shown ...again, not sequence, but execution. I wonder if you are seeing what I am seeing here.

Also, anybody else experience this ..."stylistic drift" over long periods of training apart from another branch of your art, whatever that may be?
 
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Flying Crane

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The title of your thread caught my eye and Ill make a comment, though not about this video.

YouTube makes me realize how I have changed as well. I used to be fascinated by all the different styles of martial arts, especially the Chinese styles. I could scroll through YouTube for hours, watching all kinds of stuff. Now, I am hard-pressed to be willing to watch anything anymore, even short videos. It is a real effort to actually watch something from start to finish if it is longer than about thirty seconds and even then I often turn it off very quickly.

I find myself unimpressed by most stuff on YouTube if it is about my style. And when it comes to other styles, I find myself no longer interested. I just dont care what everyone else out there is up to. I guess that means Ive found a level of contentment with my training; Im no longer looking to see if the grass is greener somewhere else.

Well, for what its worth.
 

Taiji Rebel

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The title of your thread caught my eye and Ill make a comment, though not about this video.

YouTube makes me realize how I have changed as well. I used to be fascinated by all the different styles of martial arts, especially the Chinese styles. I could scroll through YouTube for hours, watching all kinds of stuff. Now, I am hard-pressed to be willing to watch anything anymore, even short videos. It is a real effort to actually watch something from start to finish if it is longer than about thirty seconds and even then I often turn it off very quickly.

I find myself unimpressed by most stuff on YouTube if it is about my style. And when it comes to other styles, I find myself no longer interested. I just dont care what everyone else out there is up to. I guess that means Ive found a level of contentment with my training; Im no longer looking to see if the grass is greener somewhere else.

Well, for what its worth.
Contentment arrives when we reach a certain level. It seems a lot of people enjoy Youtube videos here on the forum. Sometimes they are quicker than writing your own explanations, especially when you are pressed for time.

As we grow in our lives and practices, we begin to recognize the similarities more than the differences. When we are starting out in any field we are eager to absorb as much information as possible in order to grow.

As we mature we begin to settle into our practice, simplifying our routines and enjoying the refinement of foundations skills.

Youtube has a lot of trash with clickbait titles to attract your attention. At times like this I often think of my first MA teacher who gave us the following advice:

"If you want to improve as a martial artist, throw away your television set and live the simple life"
 

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After I have seen this video, I then realize that there exists at least one WC guy who agrees with me on the WC power generation method.

I have always believed that power should come from the bending legs with body rotation. Until one day I found out this video. I finally agree with his WC power generation method.

I don't care how someone moves his arm. I do care how someone moves his body.

 
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Xue Sheng

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I generally do not pay much attention to YouTube. As for change, I have learned Siu Nim Tau from 3 similar, but not the same lineages, and all 3 are a bit different. The 3rd was actually changed a bit by the Shifu I was studying with most recently. And that change was approved by his Shifu.

I trained Yang Taijiquan for 30 years and depending on where it comes from in the lineage, it is generally slightly different from another lineage.

As my Yang shifu said, no 2 people are the same physically, so change is to be expected. And even with him, he made a few changes in the form he learned from his shifu

Also if you look at the short Sun style form I learned as compared to what I do, there are some pretty big differences, and I have no intension of doing the original form learned
 

wckf92

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and all 3 are a bit different. The 3rd was actually changed a bit by the Shifu I was studying with most recently. And that change was approved by his Shifu.

Yeah I've experienced this too. But in my case, the overall contents didn't change, just a move or motion moved from one form and placed into another. So I guess the essence was still there. It still had A to Z, just letters out of place, etc.
 

Callen

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Also, if you do a different version of Chum Kiu from a different branch of WC, I would be very interested in your assessment of the way this form is shown ...again, not sequence, but execution. I wonder if you are seeing what I am seeing here.
I find a lot of WT to be different than other WC branches in general. My personal assessment of this version could be quite lengthy and broad. Anything specific about his execution that you would like us non-LT folk to focus on?
 
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geezer

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I find a lot of WT to be different than other WC branches in general. My personal assessment of this version could be quite lengthy and broad. Anything specific about his execution that you would like us non-LT folk to focus on?

Yeah, Callen. If you watch this guy, you will see that like so many later generations of European (vs Hong Kong) WT instructors, he obsesses over very fine details of arm, hand and finger, position, often directed at a very specific application. But by breaking the techniques down into a series of sequential micro-movements he totally looses the connected flow of the whole body.

The movements in form are interconnected, creating a synergy where the combined "whole is greater than the sum of the separate parts".
IMO the movements must be linked together, using the dynamics of the body. or as John Wang puts it:

I don't care how someone moves his arm. I do care how someone moves his body.

Here's a particularly obvious example: Watch how the Chum Kiu front kick is performed from from 9:10-9:23 in the video below. Notice how he lifts the kick vertically, then withdraws the foot back before thrusting it forward. I've seen front kicks performed effectively in a variety of ways, but withdrawing energy has never been a principle of any WT, VT or WC I've been exposed to. This is not a good way to generate power!

For an example of movements being altered and micro-tuned to for a very specialized application, look at the finger and thumb positioning used in the front freeing hand movements shown at 5:41-5:52 and repeated elsewhere. This forward freeing hand was originally taught to us by Leung Ting as a generalized movement of broad applicability, training position and energy, not as one particular type of eye gouge that could only be applied in a very limited set of circumstances.

One of the great things about Wing Chun, as I came to understand it, was that it was so condensed that you didn't have to obsess with an infinity of tiny details to apply it, rather you were learning a highly distilled and efficient way of movement that could flow and adapt to applications as they arose.

Guess I'm just not seeing that happening here in the new, improved, and super technical WT coming out of Europe in the last decade or so. Pues, como siempre dec穩a mi abuelo, "Vale m獺s el modo viejo".


 
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geezer

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BTW Callen, I often like to compare the WSL (VT) and LT (WT) standard front kicks.

In a very simplified description, LT taught lifting the kick straight up by raising the knee then thrusting the foot straight forward to the target. Then he dropped the foot straight down to the floor without withdrawing it, and using it to drag- step forward. It was sort of like lifting the foot up over a box.

On the other hand, the WSL version I've seen goes straight forward at a rising angle, driving directly into the target. I've seen old videos of WSL saying this is superior since 1. It is the shortest path to your target, and, 2. The force behind the kick angles directly up from the floor so the rebounding force doesn't knock you on your butt when you connect hard with target.

LT showed me that this second part is NOT true if you do the lifting and thrusting style kick correctly. You can still direct the rebounding energy into the rooted rear foot and not be knocked back. It really depends on your stance how how release the force of the kick into your target.

In my opinion. both these styles of front thrust kick have their place. It's very much like comparing the front thrusting punches from Siu Nim Tau and Biu Tze forms.

The Siu Nim Tau punch may be less direct and efficient but is still essential. The fist moves from the side to chamber on the centerline, then thrusts straight forward wedging and clearing any incoming punch away to the outside. It is very good for building up basic understanding, learning that the "fist comes from the heart" or center, learning to position the elbow behind the punch, and so forth.

The Biu Tze front punch is faster and more efficient, delivered without chambering in front of the chest, instead angling directly to the target on center. It is riskier however, and doesn't cover your center as securely as the basic Siu Nim Tau punch does.

If you look at LT's and WSL's kicks as being being analogous to these punches, the two variations make perfect sense.

LT's chambered kick is like the SNT front punch. It's less direct but teaches solid structure, and the chambered leg (never withdrawn toward the body!!!) acts like a wu sau in SNT, protecting your lower body against a incoming kicking attack. In fact we even call it wu-gherk. The WSL style, upward-angled front thrust kick is more direct and offensively better, if you can safely execute it. It is like the Biu Tze front punch. Efficient but more advanced.

So I do both, each according to the situation. Look at them from a risk vs. benefit perspective and choose the one that fits the context.

BTW, is it just me, or does anybody else lament the fact that the old generation of Chinese masters could never get together and discuss this stuff rationally. Just think how much knowledge has been lost because of some huge egos. FWIW, WSL was said to be better than that. Less egotistical, in spite of his well earned fame. My sifu, alas...was, well... more um, you know.
 
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hunschuld

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After I have seen this video, I then realize that there exists at least one WC guy who agrees with me on the WC power generation method.

I have always believed that power should come from the bending legs with body rotation. Until one day I found out this video. I finally agree with his WC power generation method.

I don't care how someone moves his arm. I do care how someone moves his body.

Yes, this is proper lower body training for SNT. It is basically what Lo Kwai passed on. Arm usage ia combination of Cheng Kwong Southern Dragon plus Way Yan Weng Chun and Yip Bo Ching Wing Chun. Chen Kwong leaned SNT from Lok Yui but the next two forms from Yip Bo Ching. Not to be confused with Yip Mans son Yip Ching. Very different.
 

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There is a lot in the form I might take issue with but evolution takes many paths. Yes, over time my wing chun evolved. I think that is natural so I don't watch much youtube because when I have looked I find very little of interest. Actually I am surprised at how many WCers still follow doing things just the way their teacher taught and have not expanded

"BTW, is it just me, or does anybody else lament the fact that the old generation of Chinese masters could never get together and discuss this stuff rationally. Just think how much knowledge has been lost because of some huge egos. FWIW, WSL was said to be better than that. Less egotistical, in spite of his well earned fame. My sifu, alas...was, well... more um, you know."

Actually it was not that the old generation didn't talk and agree.

The big disagreements did not start until after Yip man and Jui Wan died and William Cheung and Leung Ting figured out how to make real money through their wing chun. Once $ became an issue then who was right and who was first,last best student stuff started.

Almost all Yip students from early middle period on actually learned from senior students and only at the end ,Dummy,knife form etc learned from Yip Man and even then they usually learned from Yip's assistant . They never argued over this. Many that wanted to fight trained with WSL even though they were training with Yip Man. The rich ones paid a lot of money for private lessons to flesh out what they learned in class.

The reason why they made Leung Ting take off the disciple arm band at Yip Mans funeral is because even though he paid for some private lessons he was not actually ever a base Yip Man student. The feeling was you were a Yip direct student if you started with Yip at his school if you started with a student of his like Leung Sheung and then took private lessons you were not a direct student. May not make sense but that was the way of things
 
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geezer

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Well, discouraged as I have been with the way the old association I still sorta' belong to interprets and teaches "WT" Wing Chun, I just bought my plane tickets to attend a mid-summer reunion and training camp out of state.

If there's one thing worse than training techniques and methods that you only partially disagree with, it's training very little ...or not training at all. Besides some of the guys attending are old friends and pretty damned skilled. And, we all need goals and deadlines to motivate us, right? So, I'm thinkin' "What the heck!". I'm doin' this.

Now the harsh reality. I'm rusty and out of shape, and have just a little over two weeks to brush up and get ready! :confused:
 
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