Want to know what is really happing in Iraq?

Pappy Geo

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I posting this here for those of You that want to know what is really happening in Iraq, not just the slanted anti-war news channels. Kevin Underwood is a retired Army Special Forces Team Leader and is now a civilian special ops. I have written about Kevin many times, he is a real time American Warrior and as far as I am concerned an American Hero! It is an Honor to call him a brother!

Tito Geo



"ON THE EDGE" FIRST HAND REPORT FROM IRAQ !!
On The Edge Radio
AVAILABLE AT www.kellyworden.com

Today's Show:
"Just back from Iraq: a first hand perspective from Kevin Underwood"

"On The Edge " Radio host Datu Kelly S. Worden talks with his longtime friend Kevin Underwood , just back from assignment in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Kevin is a 24 yr. vet in Special Forces & Anti-Terrorism Assistance instructor deployed to set up security detail for Afghan President and currently an independent contractor in Iraq.

Kevin talks about life working in Iraq, the dangerous world of high-risk site and personal security contractors, the news coverage of the Abu Ghurayb prison abuse versus the dangers and death of Americans and allies.

He offers his first hand perspective on the challenges of our mission in Iraq and the infiltration of terrorists from other countries while the majority of Iraqis support the coalition and democracy.

He covers the positive changes that have evolved in Iraq in the last year. Kevin tells the story of a 2 1/2 day attack on his compound, fighting a 'multi-front war', advice on supporting our troops and his tribute to Ronald Reagan; 56 min. (6-12-2004)

Yes This is a first hand report of life under attack, please take the time to become informed by a first hand account and then balance the scale of information provided by Media Reporters who only care about negative accounts of what is happening on the War against Terrorism!

Thank You and I thank Kevin Underwood for this honest down to earth prospective of life in Iraq!
Kelly S. Worden
_________________
Kelly S. Worden
 

michaeledward

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Hey Pappy, That's all well and good ... and hooray for your friend. However, one pair of eyes, experiencing what is going on in Iraq is not going to tell me what is really happening in the country. It may give me a very vivid, detailed look at some small portion of what is going on in Iraq ... but last time I checked, it's a pretty big country ... lots of people ... lots of activity. Your friend has a position to push, just as you accuse the "anti-war news channels".

Thanks for sharing though - Mike
 

Tgace

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I dont think that the opinion of a person with "boots on the ground" should be pooh-poohed. Any more than i think that the opinion of a person who gets their information from the media (or internet forums) should. I mean youre not there and probably never have been, so why should your opinion matter? (sarcasm:your posts are generally well thought out and presented. I hope you get my point)
 
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Pappy Geo

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Hey Mike, of course, unless you know the person personally, it natural to be skeptical. What you should find interesting is how different the military and contractors view the situation in Iraq than the press. Don't you get the feeling the press is slanted and political?

By the way is that a Steelhead you are holding in your picture? I can't really tell because the pic is so small. I am an avid salmon, Steelhead, walleye, trout, sturgeon all in my NorthWest backyard. Send me a private message with your email address and we can swap some PICS and lies.
 
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Pappy Geo

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Just for general information, I have had the good fortunate to be assisting Datu Worden 3 mornings a week for the past 3 years in training the 1st Group Special Forces at Fort Lewis in Combative Arts. I have had similar feedback as Kevin's thoughts in general conversation from many of the SF guys for what ever it that is worth to you. It is not my goal to convince anybody here of anything but to put forth information for digest and thought. I appreciate the responses and the brainstorming it helps get to the truth, maybe!

Outside of Seattle (which is a very liberal city), Washington State is very supportive of President Bush and the war in Iraq and is generally conservative. Rural WA is made of people who enjoy the outdoors lifestyle. I know, what the heck does that have to do with conditions in Iraq, sorry Just got sidetracked.
 

Flatlander

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Pappy Geo. Congrats on the training. How's it going out there. Are they picking it up very good? In your three years there, how many groups have gone through? Or is it all mainly the same peoople?
 

Rich Parsons

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Pappy Geo said:
Hey Mike, of course, unless you know the person personally, it natural to be skeptical. What you should find interesting is how different the military and contractors view the situation in Iraq than the press. Don't you get the feeling the press is slanted and political?

Back in the early 90's, the gulf war was going on. I worked for General Dynamics, and the company had support people in Saudi Arabia, and later Qu'wait. The feedback they had was different from that of the general media reports.

I always think about it being a perspective and point of view.

Thank you for sharing.
 
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rmcrobertson

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Rich, you always seem so reasonable. But this is the ultimate liberal fantasy: well, sure, from some perspectives it seems like torture. But it's all just a matter of perspective...

The least you folks could do, it seems to me, is to argue that abuse is morally unacceptable however you slice it, and argue necessity.
 
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Pappy Geo

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Flatlander,

Looks like you are a NSI brother but for the life of me I can't figure out who you are? If the prairies you are from are in Canada, I could make a couple of guesses. Send me a private message or email if you don't want to disclose your name on the forum.

The training is still going on and is in its 4th year, I had to retire from assisting the first of the year due to a bad roto-cup which I finally had surgery for a month ago. Brutal! Further I am 60 years old this year and those guys play hard, truly America's finest Warriors. I can't really take anymore injuries, these bones and muscles are old. But it was awesome training for 3 years and I was honored to be there!

There are 3 battalions in the 1st Group and they are coming and going all the time. Sometimes there is hardly anybody at training and other times we had our hands full.

Microbertson,

I don't quite get your point, maybe you can expand a little further. Thanks for taking an interest and posting.
 
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rmcrobertson

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Thank you for your courtesy.

However, my point is that Torture Is Wrong, and that the American Army should not be getting used for dimwit invasions by lazy, inept politicians. In fact, our army should not be used without really, really good reasons.
 

michaeledward

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Pappy Geo said:
Hey Mike, of course, unless you know the person personally, it natural to be skeptical. What you should find interesting is how different the military and contractors view the situation in Iraq than the press. Don't you get the feeling the press is slanted and political?
Yes, I feel the press is slanted, but in a way different than you. If the press had done their job in the lead up to the invasion, the US citizenry would never have allowed the president to go forward. The administration's arguments for removing Saddam Hussein were poorly sourced and replete with knowable falsehoods.

Even today (6/18), I heard National Security Advisor Rice state that "You can't argue that Saddam Hussein was not a threat to the United States". Actually, that argument is quite easily made; Saddam Hussein lost the majority of his traditional military during the first gulf war; due to embargo restrictions, replacement parts were not available; delivery systems (Scud Missles) were non-existant or non-functioning; the US Military was quite easily keeping the Kurds in the north part of Iraq safe from Saddam Hussein, why wouldn't they be able to keep the Continental United States (or our allies for that matter) safe. Because of all of these facts, and others not detailed, I believe Saddam Hussein was not a threat to the United States.

All that aside, my point was less about the credibility of you colleague or friend, and more about the fact that one person can not paint a complete picture of what really is going on in Iraq. It would be like callling my friend John, who lives in San Diego, and asking him to tell me what it is really like in California ... he perhaps can give me a glimpse of the Santa Ana winds, but he certainly can not describe the fogs of San Francisco.

During the invasion, the 'ebbeded journalists' (there's an oxymoron for you) gave us one point of view, but I was eagerly awaiting Ann Garrols reports via satellite phone. Because she was not embedded, she was able to provide a different point of view (there were less than 20 independant western journalists in Bagdhad during the invasion) ... but even there, she freely admits, she had a very limited point of view.

It takes a variety of sources to get any picture of what is going on in Iraq.

Pappy Geo said:
By the way is that a Steelhead you are holding in your picture? I can't really tell because the pic is so small. I am an avid salmon, Steelhead, walleye, trout, sturgeon all in my NorthWest backyard. Send me a private message with your email address and we can swap some PICS and lies.
That is not a picture of me ... just one I grabbed from the Trout Unlimited Website. I never catch anything that big. If I do, you can be sure I'll change that avatar. :)
 
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Pappy Geo

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Robert, your are ruthless with the keyboard.

I went to some of your previous postings on other threads trying to get a grip on what you are about. Further your profile doesn't give any info like where you live, type of work you do, hobbies or if you have a martial art background.

You seem to work these threads on this forum aggressively and controversially. I have to admit I found some of your responses interesting enough to provoke my thought process.

Of course intelligence extraction should be reserved for those known to be terrorists, and the abuse that happen recently by young untrained soldiers is not acceptable and those that participated will pay.

What about the continuos atrocities that suicide bombers in Iraq, Israel and other parts of the Middle East, killing innocent civilians and children? The capture of civilian contractors by terrorists who abuse, torture and beheading? What about 911? Thousands of totally innocent civilians killed?

How can you justify that and compare to a mistaken few young US soldiers?

Again thanks for participating in this thread.
 
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rmcrobertson

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Again, I very much appreciate the courteous response.

However, "intelligence extraction?" I'm afraid these euphemisms just won't do--we're talking about torturing people.

Moreover, "those who are known to be terrorists?" Unless you catch one of these clowns running into a school with a bomb, how exactly does one, "know," that? Do we extract the intelligence that they're a terrorist, so that we can justify torturing a terrorist?

I also wonder about something even more basic: do we have the slightest, scientifically-measurable reason to believe that torture even works? I mean, leave out the long term, where history suggests pretty strongly that horrrorr only begets horror. Do we even know a thing about the reliability of the, "evidence," produced?

Then there's the issue of the corrupting effect such action has on the people carrying it out...
 
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Pappy Geo

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Hello Robert,

"What about the continous atrocities that suicide bombers in Iraq, Israel and other parts of the Middle East, killing innocent civilians and children? The capture of civilian contractors by terrorists who abuse, torture and beheading? What about 911? Thousands of totally innocent civilians killed?"

By now you are aware of the tragic beheading of Paul Johnson


How can you justify that and compare to a mistaken few young US soldiers pile them up naked abuse?

Please give me your thoughts regarding the above paragraphs.

Could you PM me with some background on yourself and I will respond in kind.

Thanks,

Tito-Pappy Geo
 

michaeledward

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Hey, I want my shot too.
Pappy Geo said:
"What about the continous atrocities that suicide bombers in Iraq, Israel and other parts of the Middle East, killing innocent civilians and children?
It is deplorable. It is also a desperate act committed by someone who feels a superior force has taken away their land. I guess we should be thankful the Native Americans never thought of this tactic.

Pappy Geo said:
The capture of civilian contractors by terrorists who abuse, torture and beheading?
It is deplorable.

Pappy Geo said:
What about 911?
What about 911, indeed.
NOTHING about 911 has anything to do with what is going on in IRAQ! Your President Lied to you. Your Vice President Lied to you. The President's Secretaries of Defense and State Lied to you. The President's National Security Advisor Lied to you.


President Bush stated in a letter to Congress, on March 18, 2003, the invastion of Iraq was to "take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001."


Iraq did not plan, authorize, commit or aid the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.



Pappy Geo said:
Thousands of totally innocent civilians killed?"
Yes we have. And it is deplorable. And it is why I am mad as hell.
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Pappy Geo said:
By now you are aware of the tragic beheading of Paul Johnson. How can you justify that and compare to a mistaken few young US soldiers pile them up naked abuse?
You are positing that a 'few young US soldiers' were the only people involved, and that the extent of the activities reach only as far as stripping them, having them pose in sexual positions, and cross their cultures social norms.

I am not will to conceed that the extent of military activities only went that far and no further. There are reports of dozens of detainee fatalities while in US Custody. There are several on-going investigations of criminal wrong-doing. There are also reports that the activities were directed by Military Intelligence and the Central Intelligence Agency.

While not attempting to "justify" anything. The beheading of Paul Johnson was a criminal activity, perpetrated by people violating the laws of their own nation. If the activities of US solders went further than your current belief, If the activities were directed by someone acting on behalf of the state, and not just a few mistaken young US soldiers. There is no comparison; the US military activities are far more egregious than those who beheaded Paul Johnson.

Thanks for listening. Mike
 
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Pappy Geo

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Quote: What about 911, indeed.
NOTHING about 911 has anything to do with what is going on in IRAQ!


Muslim terrorists from the Middle East attacked us on our home land without provocation or warning killing thousands of civilians and severe impact on our ecomony and certainly on our life style. The majority of the Middle East is tied to Muslim terrorists. Sadam has plenty of warning.
By the way where did the WMD come from in Syria?


It is not that there is merit in your arguments, but we cannot compare our logical/resonable and humane way of thinking at least for the most part to the fanatical terrorist kill any one not a Muslim and attitude that women are not human.

Remember the majority of the terrorists are not Iraqis but from other countries.

Robert, will you send me that PM with your personal info requested so I can understand you better.
 

Bob Hubbard

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Pappy, The scum that attacked us were mostly from our good ally Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. Dubya has been and still insists there was a connection, even though his own experts say otherwise. There are other reasons for attacking Iraq, but WMD and 911 aren't panning out.

Thank you for the link to that interview though. Each person with experience helps us to see a greater part of the picture. I think I posted a few links in 1 of the other threads here to some other perspectives from the ground. All I can say is, say a prayer for everyone over there dealing with the mess.


:asian:
 
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Pappy Geo

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Bob, true but remember there was terrorists training camps in Iraq just like Afghanistan
 

michaeledward

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Pappy Geo said:
Sadam has plenty of warning.
Saddam had plenty of warning about what? Are you saying Saddam had prior warning about the September 11 attacks? The commission investingating these attacks has indicated that there was no collaborative relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda.


Pappy Geo said:
By the way where did the WMD come from in Syria?
Good Question. I would like to know the answer to that as well. There does seem to be a whole lot of supposition that they originated slightly to the East of Syria. But I have seen no evidence of that yet.

Pappy Geo said:
Remember the majority of the terrorists are not Iraqis but from other countries.
I am going to assume that in this statement, you are talking about the 'terrorists' that are currently in Iraq and taking insurgent actions against the US occupying power. Again, I have heard this said quite a bit. And I have no doubt that there are some people coming into Iraq to wage this guerilla warfare. But I have seen no credible evidence, and heard little in the way of reporting that has broken down the insurgent fighters by nationality. (50% Iraqi / 50 % Non-Iraqi?) I just haven't seen any numbers.

Have you seen reports about 'the majority' of the attackers being non-Iraqis? Can you direct me to that report.

I think, because of the very 'shadow' nature of the hostilities taking place in Iraq, figuring out who is doing the attacking is a damn near impossible task. Except perhaps by figuring out the nationalities of the dead. But, the US military doesn't do enemy body counts, so they can't provide us with that information.

Thanks for participating. Mike
 

michaeledward

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Pappy Geo said:
Bob, true but remember there was terrorists training camps in Iraq just like Afghanistan
Pappy Geo. The terrorist training camps you speak of were located in the far northern section of Iraq. In the hills in Northeast Iraq, Ansar al-Islam was operating a small training camp. This area of Iraq is where the Kurds live (bordering on Turkey). Since the end of the 1991 war, the United States and England have operated 'Northern Watch', a 'No-Fly' zone, preventing Saddam Hussein from operating his helicopter gunships in that area.

Because of this, the Hussein government in Iraq had little or no control over the activities taking place in Northern Iraq.

Prior to the invasion, President Bush would not authorize attacks on the training camps of which you speak. It is believe that Zarqawi was in that training camp prior to the invasion.

During the invasion of Iraq, the United States military, and the Kurdish military did operate a small attack on the area of that training camp, but, as in Afghanistan, it was not so thorough as to eliminate all of those training at that site.

Thanks. Mike
 
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