Walking away

[Headhunter]

Personally, I think it depends on a number of things. His reasons may or may not be sound, and then how he communicates with you about it.

Sounds like you weren't happy with either of these so you made your choice and there is nothing wrong with that.

But sometimes a teacher has good reason to say, "you are spreading yourself too thin and your training here is suffering for it. Perhaps you would do better to train elsewhere instead, if that is where your heart is. Otherwise you are wasting your time and money by continuing to train here too. You don't have to try and do it all."

That can be a very legitimate message, if it is conveyed in a respectful manner.

Students sometimes demand to have it their way. Well, a teacher also has the right to set conditions and expectations, and the right to NOT teach someone if those conditions are not met.

I'm just saying, it is a two-way street.

A teacher is simply someone who teaches you the nights you train. I hadn't disrespected the club in any way I'd trained the same times as I always do,I teach when required and I don't use any of the other stuff I learn inside that class....to me doing other martial arts on different days is no different to someone playing football at the weekend. It's truly none of his business as long as it isn't affecting the club.

If my training was suffering then sure I'd get that but it wasn't at all if anything it was improving more because of seeing different ways plus me training more means I'm getting fitter and stronger. I was still practicing at home and actually another black belt commented recently I was actually moving a lot better than when he last saw me before I trained other styles

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Seriously does nobody get this?

You need to dedicate yourself solely to kempo.

Both nights.

Agreed. I'm surprised to hear this was a 2-day-a-week program with the instructor acting this way. I've always seen it from folks who offered 5 or 6 days a week, who thought black belts should want to do what they are doing.

 

[Headhunter]

Agreed. I'm surprised to hear this was a 2-day-a-week program with the instructor acting this way. I've always seen it from folks who offered 5 or 6 days a week, who thought black belts should want to do what they are doing.

Yeah but probably there thing is you should be training just kenpo in your own time and evaluating your kenpo not training other stuff

 

[Flying Crane]

A teacher is simply someone who teaches you the nights you train. I hadn't disrespected the club in any way I'd trained the same times as I always do,I teach when required and I don't use any of the other stuff I learn inside that class....to me doing other martial arts on different days is no different to someone playing football at the weekend. It's truly none of his business as long as it isn't affecting the club.

If my training was suffering then sure I'd get that but it wasn't at all if anything it was improving more because of seeing different ways plus me training more means I'm getting fitter and stronger. I was still practicing at home and actually another black belt commented recently I was actually moving a lot better than when he last saw me before I trained other styles

I'm not blaming you. If it was the right decision for you, no worries. We are all grown-ups and we make what decision is right for us.

I wasn't there to witness any of it, I am not commenting on that. But I think it is a good reminder that a teacher also has the right to make conditions as well. Sometimes those conditions are reasonable, sometimes they are not. But a teacher has no obligation to teach anyone, as long as they don't accept their money. Sometimes (and this may not be relevant to your situation) there is more to it than an obligation over money.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but probably there thing is you should be training just kenpo in your own time and evaluating your kenpo not training other stuff

Could be. I'd feel silly telling a student - at any level - that they should dedicate all their training time to the art I teach 3 days a week.

And the concept of "dedication to an art" only goes so far with me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not blaming you. If it was the right decision for you, no worries. We are all grown-ups and we make what decision is right for us.

I wasn't there to witness any of it, I am not commenting on that. But I think it is a good reminder that a teacher also has the right to make conditions as well. Sometimes those conditions are reasonable, sometimes they are not. But a teacher has no obligation to teach anyone, as long as they don't accept their money. Sometimes (and this may not be relevant to your situation) there is more to it than an obligation over money.

Agreed, in concept. However, if the requests are not reasonable (and I see nothing reasonable in this one) and are presented late in training (like, after someone achieves BB), that's an issue for me. If I expected students not to train elsewhere, I'd state that up front, not wait until they've invested a lot of time and effort with me, learning my approach.

 

[Flying Crane]

Agreed, in concept. However, if the requests are not reasonable (and I see nothing reasonable in this one) and are presented late in training (like, after someone achieves BB), that's an issue for me. If I expected students not to train elsewhere, I'd state that up front, not wait until they've invested a lot of time and effort with me, learning my approach.

I don't know if the teacher is reasonable or not, I've not heard the his side of the story. I don't care really, it's not my business to pass judgement on it.

But, a teacher's feelings about something such as students training elsewhere, could change over time, for reasons that may or may not be reasonable. But that is the teachers right to decide.

A teacher can make conditions. If a student does not like those conditions, the student has the right to go elsewhere. But the teacher isn't the villian simply because he made and enforced some conditions.

 

[Headhunter]

Could be. I'd feel silly telling a student - at any level - that they should dedicate all their training time to the art I teach 3 days a week.

And the concept of "dedication to an art" only goes so far with me.

Agreed I hate using this term but it seems more and more like that. But it's almost cultish like I have to train at one place for the rest of my life. It's just stupid I mean over my time I've trained at hundreds of different schools and gyms and I've never had the feeling I'd be there forever. I'm still friends with most of the gym owners who I've trained with and those I'm not it's not because they were upset I left. I mean people come and go all the time at gyms and schools. That's life same as any club sure you'll have some who settle and stay in one place forever and good on them. But that's not me I look getting out my comfort zone. For example ages ago now I had a choice between going to my karate class or going with a friend who wanted to try out a new Muay Thai, now I wanted to try the new gym but also part of me just wanted to go to karate because it was familiar and I knew everyone.


I think that's a huge part of martial arts getting out of your comfort zone and I believe it's hard to do that when you train with the same people doing the same thing all the time week in week out. That's why I try different thing all the time just to push myself

 

[Headhunter]

Agreed, in concept. However, if the requests are not reasonable (and I see nothing reasonable in this one) and are presented late in training (like, after someone achieves BB), that's an issue for me. If I expected students not to train elsewhere, I'd state that up front, not wait until they've invested a lot of time and effort with me, learning my approach.

Funny thing is I've always trained at a different gym during all my time at that club and it was known and nothing ever said but now I've started bjj and a few weeks later it's suddenly a big issue....just doesn't make much sense

 

[Flying Crane]

It would be ironic if you discovered that your former teacher is at some other discussion forum, telling everyone how he had this student who had been with him for years, one of his black belts, no less, who just quit in a huff. Can't understand it, the guy had been training in some other places as well and that was fine, but his kenpo was starting to deteriorate because he was neglecting it. When he tried to have a discussion about it and told the student, maybe you need to focus a bit and not try to do everything, and you will progress faster, and the guy just got upset and told me I was running a cult, and stormed out. Haven't seen him since...

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think that's what the guy pays for the space, not what the students pay to train.

lol.. oh ok. I'm back in on earth now lol. It would be nice to to make that. Oh well back to my win the lotto plan

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know if the teacher is reasonable or not, I've not heard the his side of the story. I don't care really, it's not my business to pass judgement on it.

But, a teacher's feelings about something such as students training elsewhere, could change over time, for reasons that may or may not be reasonable. But that is the teachers right to decide.

A teacher can make conditions. If a student does not like those conditions, the student has the right to go elsewhere. But the teacher isn't the villian simply because he made and enforced some conditions.

I'm not making him out to be a villain. I do believe the teacher enters into an agreement - not legally binding - when he agrees to teach a student. To change that agreement without notice and without recourse is legally his right, but not always "right". I agree we haven't heard the other side of this, and I'm working from what I've seen in the past (though this is clearly not a truly similar situation).

 

[JR 137]

Funny thing is I've always trained at a different gym during all my time at that club and it was known and nothing ever said but now I've started bjj and a few weeks later it's suddenly a big issue....just doesn't make much sense

Are you sure it's not just an excuse?

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not making him out to be a villain. I do believe the teacher enters into an agreement - not legally binding - when he agrees to teach a student. To change that agreement without notice and without recourse is legally his right, but not always "right". I agree we haven't heard the other side of this, and I'm working from what I've seen in the past (though this is clearly not a truly similar situation).

In all honesty, some things that have been said suggest to me that there very well may be another side to this story.

 

[Headhunter]

Are you sure it's not just an excuse?

An excuse for what?

 

[Headhunter]

In all honesty, some things that have been said suggest to me that there very well may be another side to this story.

Changed your attitude from not blaming me I see...

 

[JR 137]

An excuse for what?

Is it possible his issue with it now instead of before is just an excuse to get you to leave? Maybe he's got other things in his head. It's odd how it's a problem now, and not before, as you stated.

Don't read into my question the wrong way; I'm not saying you're the problem by any means. What you do outside the dojo is your business, so long as it has no bearing on the dojo.

 

[jobo]

Well then I've decided to walk away from my kenpo club now. The instructor had a problem I was training in other styles and said to me he didn't think I was showing enough dedication to kenpo....which makes no sense since even though I'm training Muay Thai and bjj as well I'm still attending kenpo twice a week as well so I'm not even missing those classes to train other places. Then he basically said If I want to stay at that club I had to dedicate myself exclusively to the kenpo club and stop training anywhere else.

Well as soon as that was said my choice was made and I said so because I'm not going to be blackmailed into staying somewhere and giving up training at places I enjoy being at. I may be one of his black belts but that doesn't make me his property. It's a shame but that's life I'll see if I can find another kenpo school that works with my schedule but if not I'm happy with the amount of training I'm doing.

could there be any truth in the rational that trying to learn three arts at once has a detremental effect on your ability to master any one of them.

I can see that it might confuse your motor patterns as to which movement pattern you should be applying at any one time.

I have great problems over ridding movement patterns I have learnt a long time ago, I have a karate meets street fighting style, that though effective is not by any means good karate . Im sure i couldn't cope with selecting from three recently learnt patterns. Id end up with an mma type mix of three different styles all in one,

 

[Flying Crane]

Changed your attitude from not blaming me I see...

No. You made a decision for yourself, as you should. Your teacher may recall the events differently. It doesn't matter, it was no longer the right place for you to train no matter what the specifics were, so leaving was the right choice for you.

But there are always at least three sides to a story.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But I think it is a good reminder that a teacher also has the right to make conditions as well. Sometimes those conditions are reasonable, sometimes they are not. But a teacher has no obligation to teach anyone, as long as they don't accept their money. Sometimes (and this may not be relevant to your situation) there is more to it than an obligation over money.

A teacher certainly has the right to make whatever conditions they like, so long as they don't violate local laws. An instructor can decide he will only teach left handers who promise to memorize every Bob Dylan lyric and never watch Game of Thrones or play the ukulele.

Likewise, the rest of us have a right to express our opinion that such decisions and conditions are stupid and reflect badly on the instructor.

In cases like this, that is exactly my opinion.

I can envision circumstances where the "I need you to dedicate yourself completely to what I'm teaching without distractions" argument might hold some water. In 99.9% of the cases I see where the argument is made, those circumstances don't apply.

If the teacher required that all students spend 30+ hours training every week because he was training an exclusive team for world championships, that would be one thing. In that case, he would also "fire" a student who spent too much time playing cello, watching tv, or taking care of family to be able to put in the necessary effort. In cases like this, that very rarely happens. It's only when a student wants to learn another martial art that territoriality raises its ugly head.

Also I agree with DB that an instructor who only offers classes twice a week looks like a jerk when he tells the student that training elsewhere on the other 5 days shows a lack of dedication.

A teacher might also have a valid complaint if a student insisted on coming to class and doing things from his other arts rather than what was being taught currently. In that case the appropriate demand would not be to "stop training other stuff" but "stop doing that other stuff in my class." In any case, Headhunter denies doing so.

In all honesty, some things that have been said suggest to me that there very well may be another side to this story.

If I'm recalling the previous thread, this was the instructor who collected dues from the OP for 6 months without giving him any instruction while he had the OP run classes for him? In that case, I'm going to suggest that it's not the OP who lacks dedication.