(vid) BJJ flying armlock breaks an arm

[TriangleMachine]

BJJ match...this guy does not want to tap. It's painful to see how far his arm gets extended. Ouch!

 

[Carol]

Hoooly cow, what a clip. The speed on the guy in the white...and the toughness of the guy in the blue....yowza.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have seen that happen more than a few times up close and personal. Sometimes the movement from going sideways to down creates to much energy and there simply there is no time to tap for the person who is arm barred. Still remember to tap as early as you can so that your arm is not broken. (recovery time is a real pain)

 

[MarkBarlow]

I loved the Oh, Crap! look on the ref's face and the nonchalance of the injured fighter. Like Brian, I've seen similar injuries and the reaction varies from screaming and crying (which just pisses me off) to "Hey, anyone got an aspirin?" One of the best tools my sensei provided me with was knowing how to compartmentalize pain. Shut it down and deal with it later. It's vital to real world encounters.

 

[MA-Caver]

:angry: If it happened to me I'd be royally pissed at the guy and if I managed to wrap my leg around his head like the injured guy did I'd be looking to break that S.O.B's neck before the ref got in the way.
This was a tournament and not a "for-real" situation. The guy in blue should've kept that in mind regardless if the guy in white wasn't going to tap out.
I was talking with group of guys last night about just this same thing. Seems that they're a group of pacifists (sheep) and I was the sheep-dog amongst them. I explained that while I agree that it is wrong to kill it is sometimes necessary.
But, having control over one's actions at-all-times, even during a fight, one should know when to quit. You control what level to take it to so the attacker/opponent is going to stop trying to hurt/attack you. I explained my belief and following of the "oath of peace" (written by Stephen R. Donaldson for his Thomas Covenant series). How knowing when to stop inflicting injury upon an attacker to the point where they will stop attacking you. If holding the person immoble is enough then stop there. If having to twist and hurt their arm/leg to the breaking point is enough then stop. If breaking the arm is enough then stop, if having to maim the person is enough then stop... if killing them is necessary after all else has been tried then by all means do so.
I realize that sometimes in a for-real situation the required action/level means go straight to killing the person in order to stop them from hurting you or others, i.e. an armed assailant.

The guy in blue should have kept his head knowing that he's in a tournament situation and that having the self-control to apply just enough force to make the guy in white eventually tap out without actually going that extra few force-pounds to break his arm.
Like I said I would've tried my best to hurt the guy just as badly and the rules be damned. He should've just held the guy until he tapped. That was just meanness in going ahead and breaking the arm. Doesn't matter about speed you should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be in full control of your actions in situations like this one.
It's a competition not a fight for life. Jeez!

(off box)

 

[MA-Caver]

duplicate post (sorry )

 

[newGuy12]

MA-Caver is right. The victor disgraces himself.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

MA-Caver is right. The victor disgraces himself.

I see your point, I'm just not sure I agree with it. BJJ is a highly competitive culture, and both players know that. There is another odd phenom on the ground; sometimes, you just think you have something dialed in, but the guy ain't tapping. Sometimes, you hold it until he breaks the hold or position, sometimes you opt to let go and try for something else because you're not completely convinced you have it cinched. Only to learn later that you DID have it dialed in, and had you not let go when you did, he would have tapped a mere couple of seconds later.

As the defender, you know the guy trying to get you might not know how tightly he has you, and opt to make an adjustment that actually gives you more wiggle room, not less. So you wait, and hope, while wigging. Situations like this often lead to "maybe if I just squeeze a little bit harder"...not knowing the other guy is resisting tapping as a strategic stall.

Different head. Totally.

D.

 

[Ybot]

If the guy doesn't tap in a tournament at high level, perhaps I'm cold, but it is their own fault. In competition it is you, and your corners job, to look to your own safety. The guy in white had plenty of time to tap. Look up what happened in the finals of the absolute division at the Mundials in 2004. Roger Gracie caught Jacare in an Armbar, and even broke his arm. Jacare was still able to pull it out, then stall out the victory on points.

 

[MA-Caver]

I see your point, I'm just not sure I agree with it. BJJ is a highly competitive culture, and both players know that. There is another odd phenom on the ground; sometimes, you just think you have something dialed in, but the guy ain't tapping. Sometimes, you hold it until he breaks the hold or position, sometimes you opt to let go and try for something else because you're not completely convinced you have it cinched. Only to learn later that you DID have it dialed in, and had you not let go when you did, he would have tapped a mere couple of seconds later.

As the defender, you know the guy trying to get you might not know how tightly he has you, and opt to make an adjustment that actually gives you more wiggle room, not less. So you wait, and hope, while wigging. Situations like this often lead to "maybe if I just squeeze a little bit harder"...not knowing the other guy is resisting tapping as a strategic stall.

Different head. Totally.

D.

Yes I can see that point but I still believe that if one has that much training that they should KNOW where the "breaking-point" is. Simply holding the guy where he's at and just adding a few ounces of pressure... I've done it and successfully. It may not have been JJ or BJJ or whatever but it was a limb lock and the guy was trying to resist until I put just a wee bit more pressure on the joint and held it then let the pain do the talking for me.... he got the point and conceded.

MA is about defense, yes but it's also about self-discipline, self awareness and self control. I'm not perfect but I do like to think that I have enough self-awareness and control over what I'm going to be doing to someone. I would think that this guy (in blue) who obviously trained much better than I ever have would've known that as well.

 

[Andrew Green]

There is that golden rule of combat sports, "protect Yourself at all times", the guy witht he broken arm broke that rule.

Truth is, you don't know. He could have double jointed elbows or something, in training you'd relax, but at a high level competition, if given the opportunity to tap and you don't, you're gonna get a broken arm.

He had the opportuntity to tap, but didn't. He failed to look out for his own safety. Sucks for both of them, but at the end of the day it is a combat sport, and injuries are a risk, esspecially if you fail to protect yourself.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

There is that golden rule of combat sports, "protect Yourself at all times", the guy witht he broken arm broke that rule.

Truth is, you don't know. He could have double jointed elbows or something, in training you'd relax, but at a high level competition, if given the opportunity to tap and you don't, you're gonna get a broken arm.

He had the opportuntity to tap, but didn't. He failed to look out for his own safety. Sucks for both of them, but at the end of the day it is a combat sport, and injuries are a risk, esspecially if you fail to protect yourself.

I have the same opinion as Andrew. In the moment whether in real life or a sport decisions have to be made at the quickest level. Here the man with the broken arm made a decision not to tap and his arm was broken. The other player was not at fault as he was playing by the rules of competitive BJJ. Tap and submit or face the consequences.

 

[FearlessFreep]

One instructor I've trained with says "It my job to go by the rules, it's the referee's job to keep it safe"

 

[MarkBarlow]

Every time I step on the mat I'm accepting responsibility for my own welfare. If I'm not willing to protect myself (and that includes knowing when to slap) I shouldn't expect anyone else to worry about me. If anyone is to blame in this instance (and sometimes crap just happens) it's the fault of the injured party.

 

[Gentle Fist]

I would not call that a flying armbar, more like a "Brazilian Butt Flop w/ an arm lock". The flying arm bar looks like this

http://www.bbtjj.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/flyarmbar.mpg

 

[joemoplata]

:angry: If it happened to me I'd be royally pissed at the guy and if I managed to wrap my leg around his head like the injured guy did I'd be looking to break that S.O.B's neck before the ref got in the way.
This was a tournament and not a "for-real" situation. The guy in blue should've kept that in mind regardless if the guy in white wasn't going to tap out.
I was talking with group of guys last night about just this same thing. Seems that they're a group of pacifists (sheep) and I was the sheep-dog amongst them. I explained that while I agree that it is wrong to kill it is sometimes necessary.
But, having control over one's actions at-all-times, even during a fight, one should know when to quit. You control what level to take it to so the attacker/opponent is going to stop trying to hurt/attack you. I explained my belief and following of the "oath of peace" (written by Stephen R. Donaldson for his Thomas Covenant series). How knowing when to stop inflicting injury upon an attacker to the point where they will stop attacking you. If holding the person immoble is enough then stop there. If having to twist and hurt their arm/leg to the breaking point is enough then stop. If breaking the arm is enough then stop, if having to maim the person is enough then stop... if killing them is necessary after all else has been tried then by all means do so.
I realize that sometimes in a for-real situation the required action/level means go straight to killing the person in order to stop them from hurting you or others, i.e. an armed assailant.

The guy in blue should have kept his head knowing that he's in a tournament situation and that having the self-control to apply just enough force to make the guy in white eventually tap out without actually going that extra few force-pounds to break his arm.
Like I said I would've tried my best to hurt the guy just as badly and the rules be damned. He should've just held the guy until he tapped. That was just meanness in going ahead and breaking the arm. Doesn't matter about speed you should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS be in full control of your actions in situations like this one.
It's a competition not a fight for life. Jeez!

(off box)

I gotta tell ya, I came on this forum to try to get some advertising out for my new school I am opening up and I came across this thread and just HAD to reply to this post.

You have no place to discuss what someone should or shouldn't do at a BJJ/Judo/Submission Grappling tournament if you haven't ever participated in one. You understand very little about this art and the way it works if you think the victor did anything wrong. At the black belt level, your opponent knows when he is in trouble and knows when he should tap. If he chooses not to tap THAT IS HIS DECISION. And its clear in that video that the guy chose not to tap.

You can go back to punching bricks and kicking boards and pretend that you understand things like honor and discipline but until you're willing to let a guy break your arm to win a match you know nothing.

 

[jamz]

Unless I was getting paid mad fat stacks I don't think I'd let a guy break my arm just to win a match. I like my bones the way they are.