Varying Styles

[ap Oweyn41 4]

I'm going to differ on this a little, I think. I do agree that you need a foundation in order to make any sense of new information. A chassis on which to bolt other things on. But that's not necessarily going to be your FIRST style.

I think we often feel obliged in some way to "complete" our first style before moving on. But that seems wrong for two reasons: 1) There is no "finishing" a style. You could spend your whole life in one and never get to the bottom of it. BUT 2) This is a choice. You're doing it because it meets some need you feel you have. Whether that need is for belonging, self-protection, whatever, I think you should be free to explore until you land on the thing you feel is meeting that need. And if your feelings on that every change, you can change directions again.

You can make the argument that you won't know until you've been at it for years. Decades even. But I'm not sure how much I buy that. And what a shame it would be to spend all that time unnecessarily.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking some time to decide on what your foundation should be. And the best way to decide is through some exposure.

At the end of the day, it's like any other decision. You could spend the rest of your life wondering whether it was the "right" one, but it makes more sense to me to accept that we don't deal in absolute "right" choices. We make them and we support them. And that's all.

 

[windwalker099143 174]

You can make the argument that you won't know until you've been at it for years. Decades even. But I'm not sure how much I buy that. And what a shame it would be to spend all that time unnecessarily.

Maybe not

It might take a long time before one is able to know what they're really looking for....

Not to drag the current Taiji discussion over here, but there are similarities with cross-training and with training becoming burned in—sometimes to the point where changing it becomes extremely difficult.

Wei Shuren is an interesting example. He had already reached what he considered a high level in Chen Taiji before meeting Wang Yongquan. After experiencing what Wang could do, however, he apparently realized that what he had developed was not what Wang had developed. Already over fifty, he set aside what he had previously learned and began again.

Perhaps sometimes it takes years of knowing something before you begin to understand what you don't know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang143 174]

Perhaps sometimes it takes years of knowing something before you begin to understand what you don't know.

It's very clear that we have different emphasizes on "you don't know".

It takes me years to understand there is no such thing as "internal" and external. There is only the right way of doing thing and the wrong way of doing thing.

For example, when you apply Taiji "diagonal fly", if you control your opponent's back leg, you are doing right,

otherwise, you are doing wrong (because it's too easy for your opponent to escape out of it).

 

[ap Oweyn41 4]

Maybe not

It might take a long time before one is able to know what they're really looking for....

Not to drag the current Taiji discussion over here, but there are similarities with cross-training and with training becoming burned in—sometimes to the point where changing it becomes extremely difficult.

Wei Shuren is an interesting example. He had already reached what he considered a high level in Chen Taiji before meeting Wang Yongquan. After experiencing what Wang could do, however, he apparently realized that what he had developed was not what Wang had developed. Already over fifty, he set aside what he had previously learned and began again.

Perhaps sometimes it takes years of knowing something before you begin to understand what you don't know.

But there's always going to be a sea of things you don't know, in whatever direction you look. So yes, it's absolutely possible to have such revelations within a given style. (I'm assuming Wang Yongquan was also doing some variation of taijiquan, though I shouldn't do that, I suppose.) And to "start over" within a style. The question isn't really whether there's still more to learn where you are. There absolutely is. The question is whether you need to spend years before you make a different choice. My take is that no, you don't.

Could you inadvertently leave your "dream style" by exploring early on and making a different choice? Certainly possible, I suppose. But practically speaking, that's no different from any relationship you've ever left (was he or she "the one"?), any career path you didn't take, etc.

But we don't anticipate that someone has to play basketball for years before they decide to pursue tennis, work as an accountant for years before they pursue a career in marketing, or play the cello for years before they consider the guitar. They're just choices. And every choice you make necessarily means an infinite range of choices you didn't.

Dwell to much on that idea and we'd never do anything.

For myself, I have no regrets about studying taekwondo before moving to FMA. But I'd probably have made the transition sooner if it had been an option. (FMA instruction was a lot harder to find in the late 1980s where I was.)

 

[Dragonfly59]

For myself, I have no regrets about studying taekwondo before moving to FMA. But I'd probably have made the transition sooner if it had been an option. (FMA instruction was a lot harder to find in the late 1980s where I was.)

FMA is one style I've recently tried. It feels like a better fit for me than karate. The karate feels quite rigid by comparison. In FMA we are using weapons from the get-go. It ticks all the right boxes, so I'm not even going to try the aikido club now. FMA feels fluid and open by comparison to the other styles, but I'm only a beginner so I could be wrong.

 

[ap Oweyn41 4]

FMA is one style I've recently tried. It feels like a better fit for me than karate. The karate feels quite rigid by comparison. In FMA we are using weapons from the get-go. It ticks all the right boxes, so I'm not even going to try the aikido club now. FMA feels fluid and open by comparison to the other styles, but I'm only a beginner so I could be wrong.

For whatever it's worth to you, I don't think you're wrong. It doesn't need to be everyone's cup of tea. But you're making a very similar transition to mine if you do that. And all the things you're describing here are things I appreciated about it as well.

Starting with weapons is the "default setting" in FMA. Usually single stick, though that depends on the style, teacher, etc. Some FMA styles emphasise blade over blunt (e.g., Illustrisimo), empty hand over weapon (e.g., Sikaran or Yaw Yan), and so on.

I've always appreciated that FMA tends to invite influences from other places, so that whatever you bring with you feels like a resource.

 

[windwalker099143 174]

But there's always going to be a sea of things you don't know, in whatever direction you look. So yes, it's absolutely possible to have such revelations within a given style. (I'm assuming Wang Yongquan was also doing some variation of taijiquan, though I shouldn't do that, I suppose.) And to "start over" within a style. The question isn't really whether there's still more to learn where you are. There absolutely is. The question is whether you need to spend years before you make a different choice. My take is that no, you don't.

You didn't read the link...

Had you read it, you would know that Wei Shuren was already highly accomplished in his method and felt there was little more for him to learn. In fact, he was skeptical about meeting Wang Yongquan, feeling it would probably be a waste of his time.

That's rather the point.

Your basketball/tennis or cello/guitar examples assume that you already understand that there is another choice to be made. Knowing there is a sea of things you don't know is not the same as understanding what you don't know when you encounter it.

Without a sufficient base and some inner clarity, one may never be able to see beyond where they are—or even recognize that what they're looking at represents something different.

but I'm only a beginner so I could be wrong.

Depends on what “wrong” means.

It may mean that at a later point, you come to understand that what you felt about your training was incorrect, and wish you had stayed with it. Why not having a base can leave one wandering, never really ending up anyplace—not understanding that they are the place.

 

[Gyakuto143 152]

FMA is one style I've recently tried. It feels like a better fit for me than karate. The karate feels quite rigid by comparison.

Well, yes…Shotokan Karate is particularly rigid and stiff but many people like it’s impressive look with snapping karategi and stomping feet; it make them feel strong.

Just have a look at a few of these techniques from a different style, especially the take downs a bit later. They are a bit more fluid than shotokan.

so I'm not even going to try the aikido club now.

Very wise

 

[ap Oweyn41 4]

You didn't read the link...

Had you read it, you would know that Wei Shuren was already highly accomplished in his method and felt there was little more for him to learn. In fact, he was skeptical about meeting Wang Yongquan, feeling it would probably be a waste of his time.

That's rather the point.

I didn't read the link, no. I was on a quick break from work. But everything you just reiterated was clear from your post, so I didn't really need the link. Except perhaps to know whether Wang was also a taijiquan practitioner.

So, while I recognise your point, I'm not convinced it's the point of the thread. Dragonfly isn't someone who feels highly accomplished in their method and isn't convinced that training with someone else would be a waste of time. A hypothetical future Dragonfly might, I suppose.

Your basketball/tennis or cello/guitar examples assume that you already understand that there is another choice to be made. Knowing there is a sea of things you don't know is not the same as understanding what you don't know when you encounter it.

Again, you're making a very valid observation. But the question posed in the actual thread does include an awareness of the other choices that might be made.

Without a sufficient base and some inner clarity, one may never be able to see beyond where they are—or even recognize that what they're looking at represents something different.

There's definitely value in experience and the insight you garner from it. The question for me is whether someone HAS to have the years and years of experience suggested by "inner clarity" before they can decide they want something different. And you could "Monday morning quarterback" that decision as much as you like. But the real issue in this thread, to my mind, is what's required before someone can make a choice about their own life.

Speaking personally, I don't think you need to commit to years and years in one style before deciding you'd prefer another. Yes, you're going to miss the opportunity at a deeper understanding of that first style. In favour of getting involved in another style sooner and developing a deeper understanding of that one instead.

That's the nature of choice.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Hi! So in my previous thread in the greet section, I made mention of learning Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, and Isshin-Ryu. In that order too. But I'm concerned about the shock of changing styles. Can that be avoided if I did Shito-Ryu between Shorin and Goju? Also... from what I've read thus far I don't need an extra style for between Goju-Ryu and Isshin-Ryu.

So what do you mean by the shock of changing styles? All styles change over time, even if the basics remain the same. I've got backgrounds in both Shito-Ryu and Goju-Ryu and I can tell you some of the basics are similar but the two styles are quite different, most notably Shito-Ryu is more offensive and Goju-Ryu focuses more on defense. I like stuff from both styles but as for how Goju-Ryu or any other style would compare with Isshin-Ryu as I don't have a background in Isshin-Ryu I couldn't tell you.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Dude...this is like trying to plan out your entire academic career on the first day of Kindergarten.

It's absolutely fantastic that you're excited about this new thing that you're doing. But slow down and enjoy the process for now. Focus on Shorin-Ryu. Don't worry about whatever else may come. It may be that...

• You decide to dedicate yourself wholly to Shorin-Ryu because you really enjoy that school and the people there, and you do solely Shorin-Ryu for decades.
• You decide after a month that martial arts isn't for you and quit before you go back to whatever it was you were doing before.

Or any number of things in-between those two extremes, such as:

• There isn't any Goju-Ryu or Isshin-Ryu in your area, or there is but you end up not enjoying the classes.
• You move somewhere else and those aren't available in that area.
• After doing a few years of Shorin-Ryu, you decide that instead of sticking solely with Karate, you want to try a different martial art. Maybe Taekwondo, maybe Judo, maybe something else.

There's a lot of things that could happen between now and whenever you may start something else. Don't worry about what's going on with your PHD while you're still learning the basics. Don't worry about the next project when this one is barely started.

It can be a good idea to try many different arts when you're first starting out to find out which ones you like and which one you want to start with. When I first got into the martial arts I thought I wanted to do Judo but I tried it out and didn't like it so I switched to Shito-Ryu Karate which I liked much better. Since then I've tried out many other arts, some I've stuck with some I haven't.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I just figured that once I reach black belt in Shorin-Ryu, I can move on to the next style. One step at a time. I'm not here to show off.

You don't have to wait until you reach black belt, you might try other arts out here and there while you're still working towards it or you might decide Shorin-Ryu isn't your thing and you want to try out something else. Some people start with both Judo and Karate, when they first take up the martial arts they take classes in both arts, which makes sense since one of the arts (Judo) is a grappling based art and the other art (Karate) is striking based.