Using WC in the Cage?

[Si-Je]

Well, now. The street is a different arena than the cage. WC was made special for the street. But, sure, like any art it has limitations. (I just find more and more that it has less and less limitations than I once thought).

I came into WC to give me a bridge to use my ju-jitsu on an opponent, but soon found that I didn't need it and that ju-jitsu takes much longer to execute on a moving attack.
I tried many times to surprise and get my hubbie (not a hubbie at the time) into various ju-jitsu techniques. Never could. And using japanese style, we choke and use joint locks standing and sitting too, not just on the ground. That style you don't have to "takedown" your opponent to break his/her arm. Even when I snuck in a leg kick, I couldn't get him flexed. He just countered me and flirted while doing it! (really pissed me off at the time too, lol!) But he's been doing WC for a long time.

In the cage would be a different approach to WC application. Like, you'd want to "Blitz" into an opponent (just not to soon) and commit yourself to a single apponent until completion on the ground.

 

[graychuan]

Oh dear....
My advice to you, would be to get down to a BJJ gym and try it out

Been there. Done that. Which is my point. Also I frequently have thrown or taken down grapplers while they are still trying to shoot. Dont assume that just because I am not a grappler or dont do sanctioned cage matches that I havent trained against grappling...or anything else for that matter. TKD, MT, Grapplers and other Kung Fu Stylists.

 

[graychuan]

Been there. Done that. Which is my point. Also I frequently have thrown or taken down grapplers while they are still trying to shoot. Dont assume that just because I am not a grappler or dont do sanctioned cage matches that I havent trained against grappling...or anything else for that matter. TKD, MT, Grapplers and other Kung Fu Stylists.

With regards to this post ,Kamonguy, please dont take anything the wrong way. I totally get where you are comming from. Since there is no face expression or voice inflection....just text on the screen...I didnt want to come across the wrong way. If anything...Im just very confident in my own skills to make these statements. In the end its all skill and will...technique aganst technique.

Peace

 

[qwksilver61]

All I can say to all of you is that if your opponent is pretty tough and is well grounded in ground fighting,you got your hands full.Some guys can take a lot of punishment.Better have some good Wing Tsun under your belt.

 

[dungeonworks]

All I can say to all of you is that if your opponent is pretty tough and is well grounded in ground fighting,you got your hands full.Some guys can take a lot of punishment.Better have some good Wing Tsun under your belt.

Agreed. I can only add that some of what is "presumed" about ground fighting in this thread makes it glaringly obvious those that could benefit doing some actual ground training in a non-Wing Chun setting. I am not trying to be rude, just honest. Heck, take an all-day MMA seminar or BJJ seminar where you get to role with actual schooled grappler's. It will give you a more accurate and sometimes different assessment of your technique and gameplan when things go all FUBAR for you. I would even suggest some med.-Heavy full contact MMA sparring as well. You need to see how quick, good, and non telegraphic a halfway decent wrestler can shoot in on you. It looks sooooo different when you see it in the UFC or other MMA competition because of the angle and elimination of the fear of getting slammed or put on your back. This is much different than having a like-minded Wing Chun (or karate, tae kwon do...ect) "acting" the part of the grappler.

To make a long story short, I think some here are minimizing what a decent grappler can do with a shot and how good they can do it.

 

[Nolerama]

I don't think a shoot defense makes or breaks anyone in an MMA ring. That's just for an opponent that wants to take you to the ground.

What about the guy who wants to stand up and trade punches, kicks, elbows, knees and shoulders? Does striking power make a difference? Are traditional WC strikes more powerful than other arts?

What are WCs answers to escaping when someone takes your back in the clinch?

There are a lot of questions, but there are definitely answers in all of the martial arts.

I think defending against a technique is great, but what about the preparation of succumbing to said technique? If you train to only defend against takedowns, but have no idea what to do on the ground, then your training is at a loss. No one is perfect, especially fighters. Does this anti-grappling training in WC stress the high probability that the fight will end up on the ground? If so, what are the answers? What are the escapes? Who develops/practices this in WC circles?

 

[dungeonworks]

I don't think a shoot defense makes or breaks anyone in an MMA ring. That's just for an opponent that wants to take you to the ground.

What about the guy who wants to stand up and trade punches, kicks, elbows, knees and shoulders? Does striking power make a difference? Are traditional WC strikes more powerful than other arts?

What are WCs answers to escaping when someone takes your back in the clinch?

There are a lot of questions, but there are definitely answers in all of the martial arts.

I think defending against a technique is great, but what about the preparation of succumbing to said technique? If you train to only defend against takedowns, but have no idea what to do on the ground, then your training is at a loss. No one is perfect, especially fighters. Does this anti-grappling training in WC stress the high probability that the fight will end up on the ground? If so, what are the answers? What are the escapes? Who develops/practices this in WC circles?

I am too new at WC/WT/VT to know how they handle someone on the back other than doing what you can to regain center. As far as not knowing what to do on the ground with good takedown defense being useless....not if you can scramble well and have decent escapes. Also, that "every fight goes to the ground" stuff is just not true and is over hyped by the Gracie's. None of my adult fights went to the ground more than a minute. I either scrambled out or escaped the headlock, which is the most used hold by John Doe bar brawler/average Joe. I never fought with anyone that was great at grappling outside the old MMA gym I trained at.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I I never fought with anyone that was great at grappling outside the old MMA gym I trained at.

Thats because grappling (of any kind) requires a high degree of skill and training at. It is not something you can learn from watching UFC. You can gleem some basics of striking, and some gross-motor grappling, but that's all. Gross-motor against refined skills = refined skills winning (almost, but not, always). Not to mention, a good deal of street fighters seem to be of the metality that grappling is 'gay', and will do there best to avoid such a situation.

 

[Si-Je]

How about three years Ju-Jitsu training?
My hubbie did Judo for 4-5 years, back in the day.

There's nothing like the total fear when you get whipped off our feet and all you see is the celing before you feel the slam! (The trick is to stay completely relaxed, like a rag doll when you get thrown. Oh, and don't forget to exhale! )

But honestly, throws are easier if your opponent's weight is shifted or committed in movement in some direction. With WC your not. Your center of gravity is practically in your knees! You have to shoot in at the knees to get a chance, but make sure you don't run straight into a foot or knee. I know grapplers train for this and expect it, even are tough enough to "take" a good shot or two. But, It only takes one good shot to change a wrestler or grapplers energy and angle of attack.
I'm not worried about knocking out a guy with the first strike or two, I just need to get him displaced from his origional course of motion.
Then I can focus on re-direction of the shoot, their body is more controllable when they come in strong, especially fast.
Coming in fast gets them re-directed fast at the point where they think they have achieved their technique. So before they have time to totally change their body position, and shift their weight back you have truely attacked them where their vulnerable.

In the cage you can't hit the top of the head, back of the neck, but you can plant your hand on the back of their neck and direct them away, or slam a forearm down on the neck while "sprawling" to keep your legs out of the way, or even better, double gong sau the approaching arms and pivot. All these things and more are available, the trick is NOT to plan to do them, just know the technique and wait for the opponent to direct you to the technique that you need.
Don't anticipate, don't plan your defense against these attacks. The more time you spend thinking about grappling, BJJ or much of any other technique than the ones your training and using, the more of a chance you risk of falling into the mindset of your opponent and fighting on HIS terms.

Sensitivity, spring energy, relaxation. If you "watch" for your opponent's shoot, you'll wait too long on your attacking window, and give them time to do it. Then you'll "fear" being slammed to the ground, then your thinking in advance to your opponent's favor, your manifesting HIS victory.
Now, stop that!
Take what comes, act before the opponent has a chance to formulate a "plan" of attack. Keep them off balance, guessing, hesitating out of fear, uncertian of their plan of attack. Don't waste time thinking about what they "might" do to you. Then your just stressing about something that hasn't even happened yet!
Don't think.
Act.

 

[dungeonworks]

Thats because grappling (of any kind) requires a high degree of skill and training at. It is not something you can learn from watching UFC. You can gleem some basics of striking, and some gross-motor grappling, but that's all. Gross-motor against refined skills = refined skills winning (almost, but not, always). Not to mention, a good deal of street fighters seem to be of the metality that grappling is 'gay', and will do there best to avoid such a situation.

That is pretty much what I said, just based on my own confrontations outside a kickboxing ring or sparring in a cage. Still, some of the guys I sparred MMA with can get a shot in just as sneaky as a boxer/striking martial artist can land a jab or cross. There are many intricacies that people never exposed to this type of training, practice, or real world fighting are discounting....such as "Why don't they just...(insert technique here)" or "I would just...(insert technique here)".

On the flipside of the OP's topic, I hear grapplers say they'd just get a striker to the ground, so this argument goes both ways with only one way to settle it....and in this guy's opinion, it all boils down to the individual skills of the fighters and the intangibles of the situation...slipping, missing, and just plain dumb luck.

 

[Si-Je]

That is pretty much what I said, just based on my own confrontations outside a kickboxing ring or sparring in a cage. Still, some of the guys I sparred MMA with can get a shot in just as sneaky as a boxer/striking martial artist can land a jab or cross. There are many intricacies that people never exposed to this type of training, practice, or real world fighting are discounting....such as "Why don't they just...(insert technique here)" or "I would just...(insert technique here)".

On the flipside of the OP's topic, I hear grapplers say they'd just get a striker to the ground, so this argument goes both ways with only one way to settle it....and in this guy's opinion, it all boils down to the individual skills of the fighters and the intangibles of the situation...slipping, missing, and just plain dumb luck.

This is a perfect example of anticipating the outcome of the conflict. On both sides, strikers and grapplers. Each fighter has already in their mind what they plan to do. My mom used to say, "life is what happens to you while your busy planning for something else."
Same same in a fight. So, what's the point of planning? Train, work sensitivity, and adapt to the fighter and the conditions. Take what the opponent's giving you, energy, inertia, strength, whatever, and use it to your benefit. Don't allow them to bait you and trick you into playing on their playground.
The intangibles, slipping, missing, dumb luck are irrelevant.
You drill to produce muscle memory on specific techniques in a "planned" setting to teach your body to react spontaneously without thinking. Too many people get hung up on the drills and techniques of WC or any other art, and when they try to imagine doing these techniques in the ring or on the street they mentally "choke". Because they know that they cannot engage in a planned manner for they don't really know what the opponent will do or what the situation will throw at them.
This is too much thought.
And slows down your reaction time when given opportunity in a fight, because your thinking of doing another technique and find out too late, that you have to switch your thinking to a different technique because the opponent didn't do what you thought they would do.
Keep the mind empty, and quiet. Trust in your sensitivity, and adaptability, and more opportunity to attack and defend will present itself. This is Wing Chun.
The Ring is just another stage to perform upon. Just another senario with or without rules that you have to adapt to.

 

[dungeonworks]

This is a perfect example of anticipating the outcome of the conflict. On both sides, strikers and grapplers. Each fighter has already in their mind what they plan to do. My mom used to say, "life is what happens to you while your busy planning for something else."
Same same in a fight. So, what's the point of planning? Train, work sensitivity, and adapt to the fighter and the conditions. Take what the opponent's giving you, energy, inertia, strength, whatever, and use it to your benefit. Don't allow them to bait you and trick you into playing on their playground.
The intangibles, slipping, missing, dumb luck are irrelevant.
You drill to produce muscle memory on specific techniques in a "planned" setting to teach your body to react spontaneously without thinking. Too many people get hung up on the drills and techniques of WC or any other art, and when they try to imagine doing these techniques in the ring or on the street they mentally "choke". Because they know that they cannot engage in a planned manner for they don't really know what the opponent will do or what the situation will throw at them.
This is too much thought.
And slows down your reaction time when given opportunity in a fight, because your thinking of doing another technique and find out too late, that you have to switch your thinking to a different technique because the opponent didn't do what you thought they would do.
Keep the mind empty, and quiet. Trust in your sensitivity, and adaptability, and more opportunity to attack and defend will present itself. This is Wing Chun.
The Ring is just another stage to perform upon. Just another senario with or without rules that you have to adapt to.

Well said...and the reason I practice only Wing Chun these days. Wing Chun seems to fill in a lot of holes I had from various other styles and systems I have done or dabbled in.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Definately get into an MMA gym, BJJ gym, Wrestling gym etc. and roll with some experienced people outside of your school. (not one of your students) It will only make you better in the long run. WC/WT/VT is an awesome street art but do not be one dimensional and look around and see what other people do.

 

[KamonGuy2]

With regards to this post ,Kamonguy, please dont take anything the wrong way. I totally get where you are comming from. Since there is no face expression or voice inflection....just text on the screen...I didnt want to come across the wrong way. If anything...Im just very confident in my own skills to make these statements. In the end its all skill and will...technique aganst technique.

Peace

Not at all. We all have different viewpoints and experiences
All I would say is that I have seen very very experienced kung fu guys floored by BJJ guys or MMA guys, purely because they were over confident in wing chun.

As we have said, wing chun is a great art, but too many people have trained in it and nothing else, so when they play around with a good MMA guy, they get stuck

You should never assume that a fight will always stay upright and you should never assume that it will go to the floor

Many BJJ guys have come unstuck because they tried relentlessly to fight their way. You must adapt to wherever the fight goes. I had a fight on the beach once (very 'karate kid') and it was very strange as my footwork was more sluggish because of the sand

But you cannot choose who you fight or where you fight sometimes and it is no good preaching that one art alone will cover all this

Wing chun does not

That is me done with this thread

Peace out

 

[Si-Je]

Check out this video on Youtube. You can come to your own conclusions. The quality isn't great, but you can see clearly the technique used by the WT fighter against a larger opponent.

 

[dungeonworks]

Check out this video on Youtube. You can come to your own conclusions. The quality isn't great, but you can see clearly the technique used by the WT fighter against a larger opponent.

The quality of what? The acting?? That ain't no real fight!!! LOL

 

[Si-Je]

What makes it look fake? Just wondering.
It looked real to me. They didn't act because they just seem to get straight down to business. I guess, I figure that even if it's correographed the senario is still applicipable.

Sometimes I think we're a little too desensitized here in the states. Many people have seen similar video or fights on t.v. and when they see someone getting punched and elbowed we just don't realize how much that really hurts!

I used to watch the video's on comegetyousome.com and see the video's of kids and people fighting in the street. It looks pretty silly, they just swing all over the place, grab hair, and tackle eachother carelessly. But, I had to stop watching them because some were really greusome and angered me to see. (Like the video's of four or five high school girls pounding one girl). Some were so horrible, I don't even want to remember them enough to type about it!

This video looks like it was filmed from someone's cell phone camera.
And the guy doing WT looks familiar. I'm pretty sure that if the "acted" they would be speaking in German.

 

[graychuan]

It looked like a reenactment of a scene from Fight Club. :boxing:

 

[dungeonworks]

What makes it look fake? Just wondering.
It looked real to me. They didn't act because they just seem to get straight down to business. I guess, I figure that even if it's correographed the senario is still applicipable.

Sometimes I think we're a little too desensitized here in the states. Many people have seen similar video or fights on t.v. and when they see someone getting punched and elbowed we just don't realize how much that really hurts!

I used to watch the video's on comegetyousome.com and see the video's of kids and people fighting in the street. It looks pretty silly, they just swing all over the place, grab hair, and tackle eachother carelessly. But, I had to stop watching them because some were really greusome and angered me to see. (Like the video's of four or five high school girls pounding one girl). Some were so horrible, I don't even want to remember them enough to type about it!

This video looks like it was filmed from someone's cell phone camera.
And the guy doing WT looks familiar. I'm pretty sure that if the "acted" they would be speaking in German.

I have seen "a few" bar fights as a spectator and participant . I have never seen one look like this. The attacks and responses were too "WWE-Like". Nobody moves like they did, as far as I've seen in the real world. Not only that, the people were crowded around 3 sides of them but conspicuously left a perfectly clear shot for the camera. The bars I used to frequent of that type (Hip-Hop/Top 40 dance bars), when a fight on the dance floor broke out, people tend to crowd in a circle to watch....more so in a 1 on 1 situation as in the video.

To me, it clearly looks like a demonstration and not a real fight. Please do not take anything I wrote as an insult...none was meant. Maybe a tad bit of dry humor, but I meant no harm.

 

[dungeonworks]

....also note the right haymaker/hook the big guy threw and it flowed right into a duck. He then hesitates in the ducked position untill the little guy grabs his head and throws him at which time the big dude lands in a perfect left side fall. Guys I have seen thrown do the best they can to stop it because most don't train, let alone a style where you get tossed around ala Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido...ect.