USA should not be in haiti

[Carol]

You can always support Martial Talk....just sayin' :idunno:

 

[Phoenix44]

They're human beings for cryin' out loud. They had nothing before the quake, now they have less than nothing.

And yes, I do believe we should also help our fellow Americans.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I think you'll find America has had more than it's pound of flesh out of Haiti, time to give something back I'd say. You owe them mate, you owe them. Open your eyes and learn your history.

sorry Tez but this quote is crap. We do not Owe anyone anything.

I for one do not agree with the original poster.
I am all for having us go in and help immediately in disasters such as this so that the initial loss of life is not turned into a monumentally larger loss of life, culture, and family in the area..
I have no problems sending our nuclear powered ships down there to provide power for the nation to get back on its feet, to use the desal plant on the ship to provide safe water for the survivors, to supply tents in quantity to provide immediate shelter for those displaced, basic food supplies, medical supplies, and professionals to help mend the wounded, and prevent any further disaster from spreading.
What I am completely against, is spending hundreds of millions, or billions of our tax dollars to rebuild the city from the ground up, or the infrastructures from the ground up. That should all be handled by the Haitian government and awarded as contracts to whoever they choose to do it. We do not owe anyone anything, we can choose to be compassionate world neighbors and help immediately in a crisis like this at our own cost, and have our citizens donate millions more in private charity funding, and millions more then the rest of the world combined at that... I have no problem with people choosing how to be charitable, and I encourage it, however the comments about us Owing anyone else disgust me, and make me want to just say fine, do it yourself.

as for out own problems, I am sorry but I believe in the saying, help those that help themselves. Our country was not founded on the basis of everyone having the right to everything.... nowhere in our constitution does it say you have the right to a publicly funded house, or publicly funded medicine, or publicly funded food. Sure people need a hand time to time, but it seems to many people think that its a right and that working hard itself is an optional endeavor.

 

[blindsage]

as for out own problems, I am sorry but I believe in the saying, help those that help themselves. Our country was not founded on the basis of everyone having the right to everything.... nowhere in our constitution does it say you have the right to a publicly funded house, or publicly funded medicine, or publicly funded food. Sure people need a hand time to time, but it seems to many people think that its a right and that working hard itself is an optional endeavor.

I had originally written a longer response to this, but in an attempt to not derail this thread I will just leave it at- your philosophy sounds good, not based in historical reality, but it sounds good.

 

[Gordon Nore]

as for out own problems, I am sorry but I believe in the saying, help those that help themselves. Our country was not founded on the basis of everyone having the right to everything.... nowhere in our constitution does it say you have the right to a publicly funded house, or publicly funded medicine, or publicly funded food. Sure people need a hand time to time, but it seems to many people think that its a right and that working hard itself is an optional endeavor.

I keep hearing this 'help those who help themselves,' and I don't have the first bloody clue how it applies to the people of Haiti. There's no evidence to show that Haitians don't work -- day-to-day survival is hard work. Haitians have been doing that long before this earthquake. What we have here is an impoverished people with few opportunities and probably low educational attainment and literacy. Bootstrapping lectures are fine for people who actually have bootstraps to pull themselves up by.

The US Constitution, I'm sure, says nothing about supporting Haiti. Neither does the Canadian Constitution say anything about it. And while you're sending ships to provide power -- good on you, BTW -- we just popped for the cost of rebuilding government offices. Why? Because our Constitutions have nothing to do with the fact that good people in Canada, the USA and elsewhere understand a moral imperative to help neighbours in their darkest time.

Will there be a tipping point? Sure. I'm happy to see the good that's being done for Haiti, and I expect my government to hold the Haitian gov't's feet to the fire if necessary and make sure they don't treat the federal coffers like a personal piggy bank.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I keep hearing this 'help those who help themselves,' and I don't have the first bloody clue how it applies to the people of Haiti. There's no evidence to show that Haitians don't work -- day-to-day survival is hard work. Haitians have been doing that long before this earthquake. What we have here is an impoverished people with few opportunities and probably low educational attainment and literacy. Bootstrapping lectures are fine for people who actually have bootstraps to pull themselves up by.

The US Constitution, I'm sure, says nothing about supporting Haiti. Neither does the Canadian Constitution say anything about it. And while you're sending ships to provide power -- good on you, BTW -- we just popped for the cost of rebuilding government offices. Why? Because our Constitutions have nothing to do with the fact that good people in Canada, the USA and elsewhere understand a moral imperative to help neighbours in their darkest time.

Will there be a tipping point? Sure. I'm happy to see the good that's being done for Haiti, and I expect my government to hold the Haitian gov't's feet to the fire if necessary and make sure they don't treat the federal coffers like a personal piggy bank.

well I probably did not make it as clear as I could have, but the text you bolded had nothing to do with haiti... it had to do with the comment of helping all of our own homeless before we help other people..
like I said I have no problem with going over and taking care of the immediate needs so no further deaths or seperations of the people happen. The rest of the long term needs to be decided upon by the Haitian government and awarded out as contracts to whatever international contractors they choose.

and while you pledged to pay for the cost of rebuilding the government offices, I will not bother holding my breath for it... the rest of the world has been horrible in actually coming through with what they pledge when it comes to this kind of thing historically.... of course the United States has almost always come through with what they pledged or more, much of the rest of the world wants to say they are going to pay, then stall and stall, and eventually just drop giving what they pledged if at all.
So you will have to forgive me if I wait to see it to believe it...

 

[Big Don]

IIRC, the American people, gave and give more to charities of all stripes, than the government does.

 

[Ken Morgan]

well I probably did not make it as clear as I could have, but the text you bolded had nothing to do with haiti... it had to do with the comment of helping all of our own homeless before we help other people..
like I said I have no problem with going over and taking care of the immediate needs so no further deaths or seperations of the people happen. The rest of the long term needs to be decided upon by the Haitian government and awarded out as contracts to whatever international contractors they choose.

and while you pledged to pay for the cost of rebuilding the government offices, I will not bother holding my breath for it... the rest of the world has been horrible in actually coming through with what they pledge when it comes to this kind of thing historically.... of course the United States has almost always come through with what they pledged or more, much of the rest of the world wants to say they are going to pay, then stall and stall, and eventually just drop giving what they pledged if at all.
So you will have to forgive me if I wait to see it to believe it...

I agree with your first part completly. QFT.

But let me understand your second part properly. Are you saying that the rest of the worlds governments talk, and talk, makes promises and no one but the US follows through on their foreign aid promises?

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

I agree with your first part completly. QFT.

But let me understand your second part properly. Are you saying that the rest of the worlds governments talk, and talk, makes promises and no one but the US follows through on their foreign aid promises?

No not in whole, go look up the numbers for international disasters over the last 20 years, look what countries pledged, and what they actually delivered... a few overdelivered, the vast majority did not even come close to delivering what they pledged. There are all kinds of claims as to why this happens, the one I happen to believe is that in the initial aftermath the worlds leaders get into the Ebay mode.... where they get caught up in the excitement and spirit and make pledges to feel good, sound good, and look good to the rest of the world.... Sure I am sure they want to help, but if they were honest, they would give whatg they pledged in the first place.

 

[Gordon Nore]

...and while you pledged to pay for the cost of rebuilding the government offices, I will not bother holding my breath for it...

Dude, no need to hold breath. I'm not extolling the virtues of the Canadian gov't by any stretch. This is part of a longer term commitment to Haiti. It's gonna happen. It is happening. I'm just passing along info.

Canada to help house Haitian government

Toronto Sun - Kathleen Harris - ‎Feb 15, 2010‎
Canada will continue to support the Haitian government as it moves forward with its reconstruction and development agenda.” The base will allow the Haitian ...
Canada to build headquarters for Haiti's government Toronto Star

Canada pledges to help house Haitian government Globe and Mail

Canada gives $12M to build base for Haiti's government National Post

BBC News - TheChronicleHerald.ca

As Ken knows, I'm no supporter of the Harper gov't. In this case, we have our most conservative party leader doing what every other leader would do at a time when he needs all the good karma he can get. It's a no-brainer.

Besides, $12 million is petty cash. An expenditure of that size goes under "miscellaneous" on a budget sheet.

 

[Gordon Nore]

well I probably did not make it as clear as I could have, but the text you bolded had nothing to do with haiti... it had to do with the comment of helping all of our own homeless before we help other people..

Thanks for the clarification. I mistook your meaning.

 

[Ken Morgan]

No not in whole, go look up the numbers for international disasters over the last 20 years, look what countries pledged, and what they actually delivered... a few overdelivered, the vast majority did not even come close to delivering what they pledged. There are all kinds of claims as to why this happens, the one I happen to believe is that in the initial aftermath the worlds leaders get into the Ebay mode.... where they get caught up in the excitement and spirit and make pledges to feel good, sound good, and look good to the rest of the world.... Sure I am sure they want to help, but if they were honest, they would give whatg they pledged in the first place.

Sounds fair. Is there a website that has them all listed?

 

[Ken Morgan]

Dude, no need to hold breath. I'm not extolling the virtues of the Canadian gov't by any stretch. This is part of a longer term commitment to Haiti. It's gonna happen. It is happening. I'm just passing along info.



As Ken knows, I'm no supporter of the Harper gov't. In this case, we have our most conservative party leader doing what every other leader would do at a time when he needs all the good karma he can get. It's a no-brainer.

Besides, $12 million is petty cash. An expenditure of that size goes under "miscellaneous" on a budget sheet.

And that doesn't count what the Canadian people are donating, which in turn is being matched by the government.

Gord he's doing it because it needs to be done and its the right thing to do, not to gain karma. But if you gain some by doing it, so be it.

 

[Gordon Nore]

Gord he's doing it because it needs to be done and its the right thing to do, not to gain karma. But if you gain some by doing it, so be it.

Quite so, Ken. I had a partisan brain fart. Thanks for summoning me back to my senses.

I think the intent is valid too, and I believe any Canadian leader of any mainstream party would be making the same pledge. Let me put it this way -- to reverse this plan, which clearly has popular support, and which cannot be challenged by the opposition, would not only be immoral, it would invite bad karma.

I don't think Harper or any of his opponents is that callous or stupid.

 

[DeLamar.J]

My problem, if you choose to call it that, is that I need to be personally vested in the situation. So, if I know someone who is in need, or see it with my own eyes, I'm all about helping out if I have the resources to do so.
Also, I am very partial to my own people, and by that I mean americans.
For those who are confused by my sig, I admit that it can be kind of misleading, but to me my sig is talking about my country. It means I'm all for helping out my fellow americans FIRST. It means I wont descriminate against a feloow american based on there religion, race, ect ect.

 

[blindsage]

My problem, if you choose to call it that, is that I need to be personally vested in the situation. So, if I know someone who is in need, or see it with my own eyes, I'm all about helping out if I have the resources to do so.
Also, I am very partial to my own people, and by that I mean americans.
For those who are confused by my sig, I admit that it can be kind of misleading, but to me my sig is talking about my country. It means I'm all for helping out my fellow americans FIRST. It means I wont descriminate against a feloow american based on there religion, race, ect ect.

Will you only help your fellow Americans after the people of your state? Will you only help your fellow statespeople after you help the people of your city? Will you only help your fellow city dwellers after you help the people on your block? Why would you ever help anybody outside your family? Nationalism on these issues is poor logic.