Understanding about angles

Danniwell

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What do you do when you can't find the right angle to apply your takedown?
Here I show an alternative.


Let me know what you think about this video!

Youtube channel: youtube.com/@kaizenkanjudo

Instagram: instagram.com/kaizenkanjudo
 

Kung Fu Wang

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It's a good strategy if he accepts, but he can get ahead of you, which is what I usually do.
As long as your opponent starts to move around (either resist or yield), the opportunity and right angle will come up. This is why to create opportunity is better than to wait for opportunity.

In your video, he is not willing to give up his grips. If he can give up his current grips and start all over again, the opportunity will arrive.
 
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Danniwell

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As long as your opponent starts to move around (either resist or yield), the opportunity and right angle will come up. This is why to create opportunity is better than to wait for opportunity.
Is like I said in the video.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Let me know what you think about this video!
IMO, when you have 2 grips on your opponent, your opponent also has 2 grips on you, it's not the best time to throw him.

Here is an example about what I'm trying to say. You have 1 grip on your opponent while your opponent has no grip on you. When your opponent tries to get his grips on you, that's the best time to enter and throw him.

 
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drop bear

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That is probably a bit nicer than the drag and force that you tend to get taught.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I haven't tried the specific application shown in your video, but I very much like the underlying concept. I find that it's useful in both grappling and striking. Rather than physically forcing your opponent to move (which can be hard if they are stronger than you), move yourself to an advantageous angle. If they don't move, then you are in a better position to attack. If they do move, then they give you energy to work with. Lots of applications. The hardest part is developing the timing and sensitivity to take advantage of that movement.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I haven't tried the specific application shown in your video, but I very much like the underlying concept. I find that it's useful in both grappling and striking. Rather than physically forcing your opponent to move (which can be hard if they are stronger than you), move yourself to an advantageous angle. If they don't move, then you are in a better position to attack. If they do move, then they give you energy to work with. Lots of applications. The hardest part is developing the timing and sensitivity to take advantage of that movement.
Lots of practice to normalize seeing the angles and capitalizing on them. Often, just a small motion can cause enough reaction in the opponent to open the angle you seek. All war is deception.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Does anybody know whether the "tearing" strategy that you break your opponent's grips apart commonly used in Judo or not?

My question is simple. Why should I let you to have 2 grips on me?

When you have 2 grips on me, you can:

- throw me.
- use stiff arms to resist my throw.
- use shaking to disable my throw.
- cause a deadlock on me.

If you have no grips on me, you can't throw me. Is this just plain logic and common sense?



 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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Does anybody know whether the "tearing" strategy that you break your opponent's grips apart commonly used in Judo or not?

My question is simple. Why should I let you to have 2 grips on me?

When you have 2 grips on me, you can:

- throw me.
- use stiff arms to resist my throw.
- use shaking to disable my throw.
- cause a deadlock on me.

If you have no grips on me, you can't throw me. Is this just plain logic and common sense?



You've asked this question many times. The answer each time has been that grip fighting is a key part of judo.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You've asked this question many times. The answer each time has been that grip fighting is a key part of judo.
Why nobody ever comments on the video (the OP shared) that when both persons have 2 grips on each other is an "abnormal" situation? When there is no comment, I assume people may accept it as a normal situation.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Why nobody ever comments on the video (the OP shared) that when both persons have 2 grips on each other is an "abnormal" situation? When there is no comment, I assume people may accept it as a normal situation.
In Judo, the basic body mechanics of a throw are generally taught from a neutral position, which typically means both people have grips. It's not really intended to be fully representative of real application, but rather a simplified scenario where one person is basically being a standing grappling dummy so that the other person can perfect the body mechanics of the throw. Then additional variables like grip fighting are added and then it all comes together in sparring.

Here are some examples of standard Judo grip fighting:
One consideration to note is that the current Judo competition rules don't allow two-handed grip breaks (using both of your hands together to break one of your opponent's grips). That's because it was felt that the two-handed grip breaks allowed too much stalling and you could have matches where neither person could ever get a grip long enough to attack.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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In Judo, the basic body mechanics of a throw are generally taught from a neutral position, which typically means both people have grips.
Didn't know this. Thanks for sharing this information.

My question is if your opponent gives you 2 stiff arms, your throw won't work. If your opponent doesn't give you stiff arms, what's the purpose of his grips holding?
 
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wab25

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My question is if your opponent gives you 2 stiff arms, your throw won't work. If your opponent doesn't give you stiff arms, what's the purpose of his grips holding?
With beginners, its about being simple and safe. If the other guy grips your gi like he should... I don't have to fight the arms, which makes it simpler for me to learn the throw. When taking the fall, tori should retain his grip on the sleeve and uke should retain his grip on the lapel, both work to support the fall being taken. With beginners, this helps keep them from landing on their head or harder than they are ready for. With more experienced folks, you can throw harder and faster, but take the falls a little gentler.... meaning you can get in more repetitions.

The proper grip, should not be stiff arms and should not be totally loose... but in between. You are both working together.

When the other guy gives me two stiff arms.... the only reason he does not get thrown a different throw, is either I want to work on the throw that we are supposed to be working on or I know he is not ready for that fall. When you grab and double stiff arm the other guy... you are giving the other guy a bunch of energy for him to steal and throw you with. Beginners are not taught these throws, until they can take those falls. As a result, in randori, many people get the false sense of security that if you just stiff arm the other guy and prevent him from coming in... you are doing a good thing. Well..... actually you are..... but its a good thing for me.... I will push back, to get you pushing harder, then I will disappear either under or around.... either way, the more committed to the stiff arms you are, the higher and further you fly.... and the less work I have to do.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Didn't know this. Thanks for sharing this information.

My question is if your opponent gives you 2 stiff arms, your throw won't work. If your opponent doesn't give you stiff arms, what's the purpose of his grips holding?
Dealing with the stiff arms is another layer of training once you understand the body mechanics.

Honestly for the basic version of learning and drilling Judo throws, the uke (person being thrown) is basically acting as a grappling dummy that can stand up by itself while the thrower learns the fundamental body mechanics of the throw.

When I started learning Judo, it took me a while to understand this, because no one ever explained the pedagogic rationale. When I was drilling, I wondered why I was expected to just relax and go wherever my partner pulled me when he executed the throw. When I was sparring, I wondered why I wasn't able to apply the kuzushi (off-balancing) the way I could to a compliant training partner.

When I advanced to the point of teaching, I started to understand the training methodology better.

Throwing someone in actual application is a really complex task. You have to fight for grips and win some sort of advantage. You have to achieve some sort of favorable angle and be at the correct range for the throw you are attempting. You need to break your opponent's balance and structure without compromising your own. Then you have a split second to enter and execute the throw before your opponent regains their balance and structure. The final execution of the throw requires some fairly complex body mechanics which are not natural or intuitive for most people. That execution includes moving your own body in the correct manner, moving your opponent's body in the correct manner, and managing the relative position of both bodies to each other correctly.

That's a lot of material to absorb if you try teaching it all at once.

So the standard Judo methodology is to start with learning the basic body mechanics without all the complicating real world variables. The student drills moving their own body into the correct position and their partner acts as a training dummy that the student can practice maneuvering into position as if they had already completely captured their opponent's balance and momentum. The idea is that in a real match, if you get the opportunity for a throw, you only have a moment before it's gone so you need to be able to execute the finish immediately with a high degree of precision without thinking about it.

Once the student has a handle on the fundamental body mechanics, then you start adding in all the real world variables - fighting for grips, fighting for angles, dealing with stiff arms, dealing with resistance, dealing with counters, etc, etc. The videos I posted in my previous comment show some of how that works.

I'm not saying that this is the only or the best way to teach throws, but it seems to work pretty well for Judo.
 

JowGaWolf

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So the standard Judo methodology is to start with learning the basic body mechanics without all the complicating real world variables.
This is the same thing with Kung Fu applications. Everything starts from a simple point so that the brain isn't overloaded with all of the possible scenarios and what ifs. Do this motion enough times that the feeling of it become embedded. Once a person gets to that point then they can take that knowledge and apply it to various scenarios.

Sort of like self-defense. We don't learn or train for all scenarios. We build a foundation make of skill sets that allow us to make changes as necessary and as the situation changes.
 

drop bear

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Didn't know this. Thanks for sharing this information.

My question is if your opponent gives you 2 stiff arms, your throw won't work. If your opponent doesn't give you stiff arms, what's the purpose of his grips holding?

The opponent is fighting back. So you wind up with neutral grips.
 

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