Unarmed Florida Teen Shot

[cdunn]

Well, in his case, I'd have taken the advice his girlfriend was giving him...run! However, perhaps calling the police would've also been another option.

Agreed. This, IMO, is the #1 problem with the rent-a-cop, square badge jokers...they think they're cops, when they're really not.

This is where race starts to play a role, unfortunately. Running from this sort makes you look like you're in the process of commiting a crime. If - and we don't know this - Martin had reason to believe that Zimmerman was armed, or if Zimmerman was already brandishing or displaying his weapon, he may have believed that running would also get him shot. Zimmerman's weapon may have been concealed, he may have laid hands on Martin, before Martin (possibly) struck at him. We just don't know.

 

[MJS]

This is where race starts to play a role, unfortunately. Running from this sort makes you look like you're in the process of commiting a crime. If - and we don't know this - Martin had reason to believe that Zimmerman was armed, or if Zimmerman was already brandishing or displaying his weapon, he may have believed that running would also get him shot. Zimmerman's weapon may have been concealed, he may have laid hands on Martin, before Martin (possibly) struck at him. We just don't know.

Yes sir, you are correct. Like I said I'm primarily looking to discuss the shooting, but no doubt, the race of the parties involved will come into play. I don't know the answer to this, so I'm going to ask: I assume that private security, neighborhood watch groups, etc, have some sort of policy that they have to follow. I mean, I'd find it hard to believe that the local PD would say to the watch patrol, "Sure, if you see something suspicious, go ahead, initiate a stop, question the person, detain them, whatever you have to do." No, instead, I'd wager a strong guess that they're advised to observe, gather info, and call the police. Like I said, they're not cops, despite their apparent want to be one..lol.

Hey, for all I know, this kid may've been a straight A student and the best kid a parent could ever have. In no way, shape or form, am I saying what happened was right. Even if the kid was a dirt bag, I'm sorry, but if you're going to draw a gun, then God dammit, you better be damn sure that you're justified in doing so. If this guy was not justified, then I can only hope that he spends many years in a prison cell. And again, this is all the more reason, armed or not, to call the cops. This guy has no way to verify who this kid is.

 

[billc]

MJS, I don't have any problem with your thread or the articles you listed. Since the watch guy claimed self-defense, I wanted to know what the background on the teenager was. Some here on the thread questioned my motives. The articles did not deal with any background on the kid other than what the parents said, and as you have pointed out, and I have seen over my lifetime, what parents say about their children isn't always how those kids actually are.

I posted this thread to show that this killer in France, who murdered children, was said to have been an apparently nice guy by his neighbors...

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/03/nazis_or_muslim_terrorists_does_it_matter.html


The gunman's neighbors have lined up to tell reporters that he was a nice guy, a quiet person, and not very
religious. Just a normal French citizen who happened to have a criminal background, belong to a Salafist group and travel to Afghanistan (where he was arrested for bomb making!) and Pakistan.

which makes my point in my original question.

I am not in Law enforcement but I have friends and family at both ends of the LE spectrum, the catching and keeping of criminals and I hear the stories. One of my instructors was a police officer who was responding to multiple 911 calls for fires. The calls were intentional false alarms and the caller was a kid. This was back when stores actually had pay phones. My instructor/police officer, went to the store location where the calls were being made from and hid where he could see the phone bank. Sure enough, a kid went to the phones and made a call. My friend called his station to see if a 911 call had just gone out, they reported back that it had and the location was the same phone bank. Well, my friend took the kid into custody and took him to where his mother was in the store and started talking to them. As he is doing this, the kid was crying and an old lady, not involved in the event, walks up and tells the mother to not let the mean police officer bully her child. She had no idea what had led up to the event, and just assumed my friend was in the wrong. The kid had put the lives of people at risk, the fire men responding to the false alarms, and the people on the roads they drove down responding to the false alarms. So, I know these stories of "my son never did anything wrong, and is a good boy," and before they destroy this neighborhood watch guy, it would be nice to know what actually happened.

Another story. My brother is a LEO in a nearby town. His first day on the job he was involved in a foot pursuit of a suspect, and chased this guy to a house. The guy goes in. My brother gets to the door to go in, and someone, not the suspect, pushes the door closed on him. My brother radioed his training officer, who was just getting to the house and they knock and demand to be let in. Once in there were 3 or 4 people in the living room. My brother and his T.O. ask them where the guy is. All of them say, "the guy isn't here." Since my brother followed him to the door, he tells them that if they don't tell where the guy is, some of them are going to jail too. He then said, where is he, and all 4 of them pointed to the ceiling, meaning he was upstairs.

The friends and family of victims and perpetrators are not always reliable when it comes to these cases. Add in the race element and it gets worse. Add in the race machine, Al "tawana Brawley" sharpton, who is on his way to Florida as we speak, and the situation becomes even worse.

 

[billc]

Was the body cold enough during your posting of this granfire...

I, personally, will wait for the movie to come out.

Here is a decent article on the event...no offense meant to your articles MJS...this is just new and covers the story pretty well...

http://pjmedia.com/blog/treyvon-martin-scant-evidence-already-a-verdict/

Little but the most rudimentary facts are known about the shooting: On the night of February 17, Trayvon Martin, a black 17-year-old boy, was shot and killed by George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old white man. (Some news accounts have described Zimmerman as Latino.) Prior to the shooting, Zimmerman, who was active in his gated community’s neighborhood watch, phoned the Sanford police department and reported a suspicious person whom he described as a male black wearing a dark “hoodie,” jeans or sweat pants, and white tennis shoes. Exactly why Zimmerman found Martin worthy of suspicion remains unclear, but he told the police dispatcher there had been some break-ins in the neighborhood, and that “this guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”
Moments after the call to police ended, Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest, killing him. But why?
Zimmerman, who was licensed in Florida to carry a concealed weapon, told police he had fired in self-defense, but the details of his statement to investigators have not been made public. The dearth of details has not prevented an outcry calling for Zimmerman’s arrest for murder. So intense is the political pressure on prosecutors that Zimmerman will almost certainly be charged with a crime, but there is little chance he’ll be convicted of one, certainly not murder.

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The death of Trayvon Martin is simply not one that will lend itself to a tidy resolution in the criminal justice system. This is not a case in which some homicidal predator killed someone in the course of a robbery. On the other hand, Zimmerman’s critics have painted him as an overzealous vigilante who stepped beyond the customary limits of the neighborhood watch member by pursuing a person who had done nothing more than behave suspiciously.
Indeed, Zimmerman seems an easy figure to caricature. At National Review Online, Robert VerBruggen calls him “a classic cop wannabe.” Zimmerman, VerBruggen writes, “lov[ed] the thought of himself as a police officer, and witnessing a spate of break-ins in his neighborhood, he decided to patrol the streets in his SUV — carrying a gun (as he was licensed to do) and calling the cops 46 times in the course of a year to report ‘suspicious’ activity.”
Most police officers will recognize the archetype that VerBruggen assumes Zimmerman to be: the guy who wants to be a cop but for some reason cannot, but who nonetheless acts as a sort of watchman for his neighborhood, calling the police for any perceived breach of good order. And calling the police 46 times in a single year would indeed seem excessive if not psychotic. But, as Andrew Cohen reports at the Atlantic, Zimmerman’s 46 calls to police came over the course of 11 years, not one, with the confusion owing to a typo on a report released by the Sanford police. And given the level of crime in the area, an average of four calls per year may not be an inordinate amount at all. (The website Crimemapping.comlists 282 crimes within a mile of the site of the shooting within the last six months, including three burglaries within the gated community itself.)

But, asAndrew Cohen reports at the Atlantic, Zimmerman’s 46 calls to police came over the course of 11 years, not one, with the confusion owing to a typo on a report released by the Sanford police.

Much has been made of the claim the Zimmerman “pursued” Martin against the advice of the police dispatcher. On the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call, the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following the suspect. Zimmerman replies that he is. “We don’t need you to do that,” says the dispatcher.
Note that the dispatcher’s words were something less than imperative. But even if the dispatcher had expressly directed Zimmerman not to follow the suspect, would Zimmerman have been legally bound to follow such a direction? No, he would not.

My own inference from listening to the 911 tapes is that Zimmerman stopped running after Martin during his call to police, but then followed Martin’s path in an attempt to see where Martin had gone. Note that at the beginning of the 911 call, Zimmerman is seated in his truck, apparently in the area of the complex’s clubhouse near the gated entrance. But the shooting occurred on a walkway running past the rear yards of the townhouses, an area where Zimmerman would not have been able to drive his truck. Why did Martin walk back there? Did he come upon Martin unexpectedly, and if so, which of them initiated the physical confrontation?
Zimmerman reportedly sustained a bloody nose and a gash to the back of his head, injuries that may bolster his claim of self-defense. But it may also have been the case that Martin, on being followed by a stranger whom he also regarded as suspicious, acted in self-defense when that stranger approached him with a gun. On one of the 911 calls to Sanford police, a voice can be heard screaming for help prior to the gunshot, but it has not been established if that voice is Zimmerman’s or Martin’s. A grand jury will attempt to resolve these questions next month, but even if it hands down an indictment on Zimmerman, I fail to see how prosecutors can win a conviction unless they can produce some damning evidence not yet revealed. Some have suggested Zimmerman used a racial slur during his call to police, indicating a possible racial animus that may have influenced his decision to shoot, though it’s far from clear what he actually said.

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Trayvon Martin’s death was tragic, but it is a tragedy that will not find a neat resolution in the criminal courts.

 

[Steve]

I don't know if any of this has been posted yet. If it has been, please disregard:


http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Q&A Above and the 911 tapes below.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/frames/home_frames.html

911 call history for Zimmerman
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

I haven't found much on the kid. I finally found documents with some specific timelines for the evening. Looks like this all happened at about 7 pm. I was curious about how late this was happening. I have also read that the kid had no criminal history and was an A and B student visiting friends of his family.

I'm waiting for more to come out, but as more information comes out, Zimmerman looks more and more like a bully and a cop wannabe.

 

[billc]

I still find it curious that with all the communication with the parents, we still know little or nothing about the teenager who was shot. We are finding more and more about the shooter, but you have to sort of look to see that he was an A or B student and that is it. It is just curious.

another article from msnbc...

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/46781...s-killed-because-color-his-skin/#.T2vaRXhqOFI

Several neighbors also made frantic calls, describing the struggle. “They’re wrestling right in the back of my porch,’’ one neighbor said. “The guy’s yelling “Help” and I’m not going outside.’’
“There’s someone screaming!’’ another neighbor said. “I just heard gunshots!”
A voice can be heard screaming in the background of one of the calls. Zimmerman has said the voice is his, but Martin’s family believes it is the cries of their terrified son.

With this from a previous piece from the local news...

Police said Zimmerman's account, which was corroborated by witnesses, indicates Martin was the aggressor.There have also been differing accounts about whom witnesses heard crying for help that night, but the lead detective on the case says he played a recording of that voice for Martin's father and the Miami man said the voice was not his son's.

 

[billc]

This is video of an eyewitness to the actual fight. They were outside this guys patio and the witness talks to the reporter and states that martin was on top of zimmerman and zimmerman was calling to the witness for help. The witness did not know the names of the two guys involved at the time he saw the fight, but said the guy on top hitting the other guy was the guy who ended up shot. The witness then locked his door, went upstairs to look out the upstairs window and heard the shot fired...

This news piece came out before zimmerman was identified by name as the shooter...the eyewitness interview starts at the 22 second mark...

http://uservideos.smashits.com/vide...martin-the-truth-without-the-media-twist.html

this might be why the self-defense claim was believed by the prosecuter and the police...

 

[Steve]

It's entirely possible that he's just a regular kid. Not much to know. I'm still looking for more, too, but he seems to be a good student with no record.

 

[billc]

In the letter section to the above pajamasmedia.com story there was this snippet that I can't confirm but is worth looking into...

According to Zimmerman’s statement to the police, he was returning to his truck alone, to go meet police, when he was attacked. If this is true, it is pertinent

.

Seeing the actual reports would be nice.

 

[Steve]

In the letter section to the above pajamasmedia.com story there was this snippet that I can't confirm but is worth looking into...

.

Seeing the actual reports would be nice.

Didn't go through all the links on the site, but I saw some police reports in the links I provided.

 

[granfire]

It's entirely possible that he's just a regular kid. Not much to know. I'm still looking for more, too, but he seems to be a good student with no record.

Dagnabbit...just a regular kid....

Yep, it does happen.

 

[MJS]

MJS, I don't have any problem with your thread or the articles you listed. Since the watch guy claimed self-defense, I wanted to know what the background on the teenager was. Some here on the thread questioned my motives. The articles did not deal with any background on the kid other than what the parents said, and as you have pointed out, and I have seen over my lifetime, what parents say about their children isn't always how those kids actually are.

I posted this thread to show that this killer in France, who murdered children, was said to have been an apparently nice guy by his neighbors...

No problem. And yes, likewise, I'd like to know a bit more on this kid as well. Seems that the shooter is the main focus in the media, and according to what I've read, he has a criminal background. Interestingly enough, an article in yesterdays paper, had the words, "He took his job too serious" in the heading. Hmm..go figure..lol. They interviewed some other kids in the neighborhood who said that the guy was always watching them as well, even though (so they claim) they weren't doing anything. Again, who knows what the facts are...maybe the kids were..I dont know, but I do feel there're alot of pieces missing.

which makes my point in my original question.

I am not in Law enforcement but I have friends and family at both ends of the LE spectrum, the catching and keeping of criminals and I hear the stories. One of my instructors was a police officer who was responding to multiple 911 calls for fires. The calls were intentional false alarms and the caller was a kid. This was back when stores actually had pay phones. My instructor/police officer, went to the store location where the calls were being made from and hid where he could see the phone bank. Sure enough, a kid went to the phones and made a call. My friend called his station to see if a 911 call had just gone out, they reported back that it had and the location was the same phone bank. Well, my friend took the kid into custody and took him to where his mother was in the store and started talking to them. As he is doing this, the kid was crying and an old lady, not involved in the event, walks up and tells the mother to not let the mean police officer bully her child. She had no idea what had led up to the event, and just assumed my friend was in the wrong. The kid had put the lives of people at risk, the fire men responding to the false alarms, and the people on the roads they drove down responding to the false alarms. So, I know these stories of "my son never did anything wrong, and is a good boy," and before they destroy this neighborhood watch guy, it would be nice to know what actually happened.

Ah, my apologies. I think I was confusing you with ballen. Its a shame that do-gooders, who're passing by, have to stick their nose where it doesnt bleong. Sadly, this is another case of the cops being damned if they do, damned if they dont. This old bag bashes the cop, yet I wonder...who is this old hag going to call when SHE needs help? That aside, again, I'm with you...I'd like to know more as well.

Another story. My brother is a LEO in a nearby town. His first day on the job he was involved in a foot pursuit of a suspect, and chased this guy to a house. The guy goes in. My brother gets to the door to go in, and someone, not the suspect, pushes the door closed on him. My brother radioed his training officer, who was just getting to the house and they knock and demand to be let in. Once in there were 3 or 4 people in the living room. My brother and his T.O. ask them where the guy is. All of them say, "the guy isn't here." Since my brother followed him to the door, he tells them that if they don't tell where the guy is, some of them are going to jail too. He then said, where is he, and all 4 of them pointed to the ceiling, meaning he was upstairs.

The friends and family of victims and perpetrators are not always reliable when it comes to these cases. Add in the race element and it gets worse. Add in the race machine, Al "tawana Brawley" sharpton, who is on his way to Florida as we speak, and the situation becomes even worse.

Agreed.

 

[MJS]

I still find it curious that with all the communication with the parents, we still know little or nothing about the teenager who was shot. We are finding more and more about the shooter, but you have to sort of look to see that he was an A or B student and that is it. It is just curious.

another article from msnbc...

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/46781...s-killed-because-color-his-skin/#.T2vaRXhqOFI



With this from a previous piece from the local news...

This is video of an eyewitness to the actual fight. They were outside this guys patio and the witness talks to the reporter and states that martin was on top of zimmerman and zimmerman was calling to the witness for help. The witness did not know the names of the two guys involved at the time he saw the fight, but said the guy on top hitting the other guy was the guy who ended up shot. The witness then locked his door, went upstairs to look out the upstairs window and heard the shot fired...

This news piece came out before zimmerman was identified by name as the shooter...the eyewitness interview starts at the 22 second mark...

http://uservideos.smashits.com/vide...martin-the-truth-without-the-media-twist.html

this might be why the self-defense claim was believed by the prosecuter and the police...

This is interesting. I wonder...was Zimmerman in a uniform or plain clothes? Did he ID himself to the kid? Is his vehicle he 'patrols' in, marked? I think this is important. I ask this because perhaps the victim didn't know or realize who he was. I dont know about anyone else, but if I was in this kids position, not knowing who this guy was, I'd be running, fighting, etc, as well.

 

[granfire]

No problem. And yes, likewise, I'd like to know a bit more on this kid as well. Seems that the shooter is the main focus in the media, and according to what I've read, he has a criminal background. Interestingly enough, an article in yesterdays paper, had the words, "He took his job too serious" in the heading. Hmm..go figure..lol. They interviewed some other kids in the neighborhood who said that the guy was always watching them as well, even though (so they claim) they weren't doing anything. Again, who knows what the facts are...maybe the kids were..I dont know, but I do feel there're alot of pieces missing.

Oh dear, back when I was a wee one we lived in an apartment complex with some stringent HOA rules, we had this one person constantly watching us kids, taking pictures and sending them to, heck I have no idea to whom...

 

[cdunn]

This is interesting. I wonder...was Zimmerman in a uniform or plain clothes? Did he ID himself to the kid? Is his vehicle he 'patrols' in, marked? I think this is important. I ask this because perhaps the victim didn't know or realize who he was. I dont know about anyone else, but if I was in this kids position, not knowing who this guy was, I'd be running, fighting, etc, as well.

Zimmerman isn't a policeman, and isn't registered with any formal neighborhood watch organization. He has no uniform to wear, who knows?, and no - he has no authority to mark his vehicle with.

 

[Steve]

Zimmerman was actually not on patrol. According to his statement, he was running errands when he saw the kid. Bill, itsmbecoming clear that you aren't looking at anything that contradicts what you want to find. I posted links to some actual source documents. Look at them instead of opinion pieces. You're posting opinion articles as though they are factual instead of innuendo.

The links I posted include some police reports, a couple press releases, the actual 911 records formzimmerman, and the actual 911 call recordings.

 

[Steve]

Here. I'll pretend I'm billcihak for a moment.

[billcihak mode]Gee. I wonder if Zimmerman was a pedophile. Why does he follow kids around the neighborhood? Does anyone know for sure that he's not a pedophile? Do we have his computer records? Has anyone even looked for porn on his computer? There's just so much we don't know about him. [/billcihak mode]** end billcihak mode

 

[cdunn]

Here. I'll pretend I'm billcihak for a moment.

[billcihak mode]Gee. I wonder if Zimmerman was a pedophile. Why does he follow kids around the neighborhood? Does anyone know for sure that he's not a pedophile? Do we have his computer records? Has anyone even looked for porn on his computer? There's just so much we don't know about him. [/billcihak mode]** end billcihak mode

It's the difference between justice and justification. Since this shooting was demonstrably unjust, Bill really, really wants this shooting to be justified for some reason.

 

[elder999]

 

[billc]

So steve, you didn't watch the interview with the actual eyewitness who saw the fight as it was happening and then called 911, he said zimmerman called to him for help, that zimmerman was on the ground and martin was on top hitting zimmerman. I guess that video of the news interview with the actual eyewitness to the event has no bearing on your take on the shooting. Yes, I read the one report and looked through the 911 calls.

ON a side note, the national press reported incorrectly on the number of 911 calls made. They said it was over 40 in the last year when it was actually over the last 11 years. What else isn't getting reported.

You might want to watch the interview with the actual eyewitness, who answered questions from a reporter before the story became a national event. The guy says exactly what he saw, not heard, check out the video.