Two schools pull books after protest

[Big Don]

Muslims' fury forces schools to shelve anti-homophobia storybooks for 5-year-olds

By LAURA CLARK Last updated at 08:45am on 2nd April 2008 London Daily Mail
Excerpt:

Two primary schools have withdrawn storybooks about same-sex relationships after objections from Muslim parents.

Up to 90 gathered at the schools to complain about the books which are aimed at pupils as young as five.

One story, titled King & King, is a fairytale about a prince who turns down three princesses before marrying one of their brothers.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When Christian parents protest they are belittled as small minded, homophobic, etc. I guess that is because they are so much less likely to EXPLODE...

 

[newGuy12]

When Christian parents protest they are belittled as small minded, homophobic, etc. I guess that is because they are so much less likely to EXPLODE...

I was thinking the same thing. Wonder how the "tolerance police" will rule on this?

 

[RandomPhantom700]

When Christian parents protest they are belittled as small minded, homophobic, etc. I guess that is because they are so much less likely to EXPLODE...

Wow, that's the only distinction you can draw here? Let's look at the rest of the article...

Members of the Bristol Muslim Cultural Society said parents were upset at the lack of consultation over the use of the materials.

Farooq Siddique, community development officer for the society and a governor at Bannerman Road, said there were also concerns about whether the stories were appropriate for young children.

"The main issue was there was a total lack of consultation with parents," he said.
"The schools refused to deal with the parents, and were completely authoritarian.

"The agenda was to reduce homophobic bullying and all the parents said they were not against that side of it, but families were saying to us 'our child is coming home and talking about same-sex relationships, when we haven't even talked about heterosexual relationships with them yet'.
"They don't do sex education until Year Six and at least there you have got the option of withdrawing the children.
"But here you don't have that option apparently. You can't withdraw because it is no particular lesson they are used in."
He added: "In Islam homosexual relationships are not acceptable, as they are not in Christianity and many other religions but the main issue is that they didn't bother to consult with parents.

First off, they're not squawking about moral values or gay-agenda indoctrination, the complaints from the protesters are about the ages of the targetted kids and the one-sided nature of the decision.

Second off, we're talking about a group of parents with reasoned complaints, I didn't see one mention in the entire article of any violence, threats of bombs, or anyone screaming "Praise be to Allah!" So lay off with the cheap shots like that exploding comment.

 

[shesulsa]

Let's not teach tolerance now. That would be a bad thing.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

I have an idea.

Let's all raise our kids to believe that the only people in the world are <insert your race here>, <insert your political leanings here> <insert your religion here> who don't smoke, drink, do drugs nor have sex, but want to do all of these things just enough to buy all sorts of products they don't need and which could be the ruination of their lives.

They only marry people of great professions who make lots of money and have just enough children, recycle, provide soccer, karatay and French lessons to their children. They have perfect bodies with perfect skin and hair, have weekly plastic surgery or laser hair treatment. Eventually they will buy nice houses in the suburbs, own one Prius and one Hummer.

Someday they will divorce and remarry and live in more than one perfect house with more perfect people and only associate and/or work with others EXACTLY LIKE THEM.

Which works out perfectly because that's all they need to know.

:shrug:

Bubble children. That's what some people try to have; children sheltered from the evils of the world and the knowledge that there are gays who are better people than some of their hetero counterparts.

*rolls up sleeves*

Let me at 'em .... :soapbox:

 

[Empty Hands]

When Christian parents protest they are belittled as small minded, homophobic, etc. I guess that is because they are so much less likely to EXPLODE...

Don't be disingenuous. Books being banned from schools due to Christian parental complaints is a long standing tradition in this country, which you well know. It's just as wrong when they do it.

Somehow though, I think your angle here isn't to have books promoting tolerance of homosexuality brought back for the five year olds to read.

 

[shesulsa]

When Christian parents protest they are belittled as small minded, homophobic, etc. I guess that is because they are so much less likely to EXPLODE...

Interesting ... I missed this. At first glance it appeared to be a sig and I usually ignore sigs.

I think ... as you can probably tell from my post ... that ALL people who want to raise ignorant, intolerant children are ignorant and intolerant ... and pointing to the segment of your post above, QED.

Do we *really* need to point to the horrors people have committed on the human race in the name of Christ? Do you really need to use such a petty angle as sour grapes to "strengthen" your argument? How small-minded, racist and ... so very much like the people in your article.

 

[MA-Caver]

Well Catcher In The Rye and Lord of the Flies were banned... why not those?

 

[mrhnau]

Well Catcher In The Rye and Lord of the Flies were banned... why not those?

Lord of the Flies? That book rocks

Let's not teach tolerance now. That would be a bad thing

Bubble children. That's what some people try to have; children sheltered from the evils of the world and the knowledge that there are gays who are better people than some of their hetero counterparts.

This is not about tolerance. This is absolutely not age appropriate. This is the same mess we ran into with Clinton and Lewinsky. Let parents discuss sexuality with their kids, but let them choose the time and manner to do so. Keep your governmental fingers off of my kids sexuality! Let parents teach FAMILY VALUES and let the schools teach how to read, write and do math. Thats their job. You don't need to learn about Billy and his two fathers at age 5/6. That has NOTHING to do with learning how to read, write or do math. At that age, they need to be learning colors, letters, words, numbers, not ANYTHING to do with sexuality.

We teach 18 year olds how to aim guns at people and kill them (the military), but we sure won't do that to a first grader. Is it wrong to kill people in war? That can be determined by parents and your own values, but we sure won't teach you how to kill in elementary school. Why? Not age appropriate! I'd be equally upset to find a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook laying around in an Elementary school. Is it right to eat meat? Let the parents make that decision. Same thing. Not a decision to be made by the government.

And what is wrong with sheltering? I assume you have kids. When they were 6 months old, were you making them watch gruesome horror movies? Or in fact, anything other than education or cartoons? When did you start letting them watch something more sinister or questionable? As a parents, I'd be disturbed if some government moron decided my child should watch Rambo in my daycare at age 2, or if there was some porn distributed to my elementary schools. I am in FAVOR of sheltering my kids from those kind of things, and I'd be increasingly upset if these things were taking place!

 

[shesulsa]

Lord of the Flies? That book rocks



This is not about tolerance. This is absolutely not age appropriate. This is the same mess we ran into with Clinton and Lewinsky. Let parents discuss sexuality with their kids, but let them choose the time and manner to do so. Keep your governmental fingers off of my kids sexuality! Let parents teach FAMILY VALUES and let the schools teach how to read, write and do math. Thats their job. You don't need to learn about Billy and his two fathers at age 5/6. That has NOTHING to do with learning how to read, write or do math. At that age, they need to be learning colors, letters, words, numbers, not ANYTHING to do with sexuality.

We teach 18 year olds how to aim guns at people and kill them (the military), but we sure won't do that to a first grader. Is it wrong to kill people in war? That can be determined by parents and your own values, but we sure won't teach you how to kill in elementary school. Why? Not age appropriate! I'd be equally upset to find a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook laying around in an Elementary school. Is it right to eat meat? Let the parents make that decision. Same thing. Not a decision to be made by the government.

And what is wrong with sheltering? I assume you have kids. When they were 6 months old, were you making them watch gruesome horror movies? Or in fact, anything other than education or cartoons? When did you start letting them watch something more sinister or questionable? As a parents, I'd be disturbed if some government moron decided my child should watch Rambo in my daycare at age 2, or if there was some porn distributed to my elementary schools. I am in FAVOR of sheltering my kids from those kind of things, and I'd be increasingly upset if these things were taking place!

Family values.

Let me tell you about what my family values. My kids value their auntie who votes republican (much to my behest), knits and crochets for them, performs genealogical research for our families and has had the same partner for 30+ years. They value her heart, her spirit and her partner as another aunt.

Do they know all the details of what they do in bed? Of course not.

Your comparing sexual preference to porn and horror speaks for itself.

 

[mrhnau]

Family values.

Let me tell you about what my family values. My kids value their auntie who votes republican (much to my behest), knits and crochets for them, performs genealogical research for our families and has had the same partner for 30+ years. They value her heart, her spirit and her partner as another aunt.

Do they know all the details of what they do in bed? Of course not.

And they should not. As I stated, these things are best determined by the family. If kids are interacting with someone in that kind of relationship, then so be it. Let the parents discuss it. In the same vein, some kids have parents that die or are sick and going to die. These children should have their families discuss this. Don't give a lecture to every kid at school about parents dying and scare everyone. Same vein. If there is a death at a school, let the families help deal with their own children's issues, not some teacher/educator.

Your comparing sexual preference to porn and horror speaks for itself.

Irrelevant. A discussion of AGE APPROPRIATE, not morality. You also forgot to mention my discussing the eating of meat or murder during times of war, but emphasized what you thought was extreme.

The whole point, which you did not discuss, was that kids this age need to be learning the basics. Reading, writing, math, running around, just worrying about being kids! Let their biggest concern be if Jane checked the "Will you be my girlfriend" box. They have plenty of years to worry about sexuality. Let them grow up first! And let their families discuss that.

 

[MA-Caver]

mrhnau[/B]]This is not about tolerance. This is absolutely not age appropriate. This is the same mess we ran into with Clinton and Lewinsky. Let parents discuss sexuality with their kids, but let them choose the time and manner to do so. Keep your governmental fingers off of my kids sexuality! Let parents teach FAMILY VALUES and let the schools teach how to read, write and do math. Thats their job. You don't need to learn about Billy and his two fathers at age 5/6. That has NOTHING to do with learning how to read, write or do math. At that age, they need to be learning colors, letters, words, numbers, not ANYTHING to do with sexuality.

Family values.

Let me tell you about what my family values. My kids value their auntie who votes republican (much to my behest), knits and crochets for them, performs genealogical research for our families and has had the same partner for 30+ years. They value her heart, her spirit and her partner as another aunt.
Do they know all the details of what they do in bed? Of course not.
itself.

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to go with mrhnau's assessement about it not being age appropriate. Kids are going to learn about sexuality anyway, but 5 years old isn't the time to teach them about that. 6 years old, isn't 7 years old isn't and 8-10 years old isn't.
As he said there's plenty of time to learn about what two people do with each other, regardless of their preference. I'd be right along side those Muslim people if I found out my 5 year old (if I had one) was reading a book of that nature.
No of course they books didn't go into details about the goings on behind bedroom doors, didn't have to read the books to know that much but books about martial/co-habitational relationships are not age appropriate.

 

[Xue Sheng]

ummm

Am I missing something here???

The kids were 5!!! We are talking Kindergarten

You want to debate tolerance you want to teach it that is all well and good but a book about an overt homosexual relationships or a book that is about an overt heterosexual relationship DOES NOT BELONG IN A KINDERGARTEN CLASS.

They have enough to learn already you want to get into it with them later fine but at 5 I doubt any of the lesson they are trying to get across will.

NYS tried to require sex ed at one point at a very early age I believe it was 6 they used a banana and a condom and the ENIVITABLE question put forth by a 6 YEAR OLD was "what do you do with the banana after sex" They have NO idea what the HELL adults are talking about at that age when it comes to sex or relationships based on sex.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD let kids be kids while they can be.

You start talking to my kids about such thing be it gay, lesbian or straight... and I know about it.... you got serious problems

 

[newGuy12]

I'd be right along side those Muslim people if I found out my 5 year old (if I had one) was reading a book of that nature.

I also have no children, but understand that parents get VERY CONCERNED about what their children learn about at a young age.

Now, interestingly, the Muslim community is "taking care of business" when the Christian community is just summarily dismissed. For that, the Christian community can be thankful, at least for this end result, no?

Now, if the school later says, "Oh, because you claim to be a Muslim student, you will not have to read this book, but all of the other students, the Christians included, must read this book." Then, there is big trouble.

 

[Empty Hands]

At that age, they need to be learning colors, letters, words, numbers, not ANYTHING to do with sexuality.

No of course they books didn't go into details about the goings on behind bedroom doors, didn't have to read the books to know that much but books about martial/co-habitational relationships are not age appropriate.

I'm afraid that from the soonest age they can reason and form associations, children are bombarded with a sexual education, starting with the relationship between Mommy and Daddy. From the youngest age they learn about relationships, marriage and children. They do this with or without books. Many common children's books and common fairy tales also provide a sexual education, in that the Prince and the Princess generally get married at the end of the story.

So what's the difference? The education they are being bombarded with is a heterosexual one. Most of us tend not to notice because it is a "natural", taken-for-granted context. Of course learning about Mommies and Daddies is natural. Does a fish notice the water it is swimming in?

Nonetheless, that heteronormative sexual education is there. If the Prince marries another Prince at the end of the tale, it provides no more of a sexual education to the child then they have already received when the Prince marries the Princess.

6 years old, isn't 7 years old isn't and 8-10 years old isn't.

Not sure how things are now, but I started actual sex-ed (the penis and vagina routine) in 5th grade - 10 years old. Of course, we were talking about it with each other long before then. How long would you wait? The average age of first menstruation in girls in many communities is in the 8-9 range.

 

[Empty Hands]

You want to debate tolerance you want to teach it that is all well and good but a book about an overt homosexual relationships or a book that is about an overt heterosexual relationship DOES NOT BELONG IN A KINDERGARTEN CLASS.

That is pretty funny. We'll have to do away with "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves", "Cinderella", "King Arthur", "A Thousand and One Nights", and a whole host of other stories and movies currently being enjoyed by kindergardeners everywhere.

Certainly kindergardeners shouldn't be exposed to violence either, right? Well, there goes all those stories again.

 

[Tez3]

They are not kindergarten children, over here children start mainstream school at four and a half. At about two years of age until they start school they are either at nursery or playschool depending if the parents want to send them but compulsory education starts at four and a half.

 

[elder999]

They are not kindergarten children, over here children start mainstream school at four and a half. At about two years of age until they start school they are either at nursery or playschool depending if the parents want to send them but compulsory education starts at four and a half.

Over here, "kindergarten" is "mainstream school." In any case, four and a half makes them "kindergarten age," or younger, and "pupils as young as five" equates with "kindergarten" over here, for most people.

 

[Tez3]

Over here, "kindergarten" is "mainstream school." In any case, four and a half makes them "kindergarten age," or younger, and "pupils as young as five" equates with "kindergarten" over here, for most people.

We have some kindergartens here but they are usually private enterprise nurseries and are optional.
What age does compulsory education start in the States, I assume it's compulsory even if you home school? Here it's a criminal offence not to either send your children to school or have them properly educated.

 

[elder999]

We have some kindergartens here but they are usually private enterprise nurseries and are optional.
What age does compulsory education start in the States, I assume it's compulsory even if you home school? Here it's a criminal offence not to either send your children to school or have them properly educated.

Don't know exactly how it works-it's usually "around five," though some will turn six in kindergarten, depending upon when they were born, and, likewise (though less often than when I was a kid) some will turn five. It is "compulsory," though....

In any case, I'd be pretty irritated by my kindergartener being fed "King and King," and I'm neither Christian or Moslem. Not that I've got anything against the idea of teaching kids about such things, even kids that young (depending on the kid). It's just that I believe it should be the parents' job, not the school system's.

 

[Big Don]

Don't be disingenuous. Books being banned from schools due to Christian parental complaints is a long standing tradition in this country, which you well know. It's just as wrong when they do it.

The word you lack is "HAD", as in: Books being banned from schools due to Christian parental complaints HAD a long standing tradition...