Two gun shooting anyone? Benefits?

[AzQkr]

One in each hand simultaneously.

You'll need to learn how to use the enhanced peripheral vision technique that I developed around 1993.

The link takes you to reviews/comments on students who have been shown this in the Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems courses.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...light=enhanced

Post #'s --- 5, 12, 14, 17, 19, 20

Benefits?

You can shoot as easily and with consierable accuracy with your weak/non dominant side in a few hours of training.

You can use the ability you have, and most do not know how to use, to "see" without direct visual focus. Catch something that's a threat in your peripheral vision? You can hit it without looking at it immediately.

One of the students was 10 feet from two steel plates, which were placed 10 feet apart, and shot in near total darkness in the middle of the desert with me last month. First time up after just listening to me tell him "how to" do it, he was 5 for 6 with double glocks. Thats 86+% hits on the first try in near total darkness.

Brownie

 

[arnisandyz]

Interesting...but what about the drawbacks?

The more bullets fired the more bullets you're responsible for. If you're using peripheral vision then your vision isn't focused on any one threat...you're picking up an image in your peripheral and blasting away without positive identification...could be little Sally eating an ice cream cone or someone coming up to your for the time.

Maybe you can do it, but I find it hard to believe someone with average skill and a few lessons can effectively use 2 guns in a defensive situation
AND do it responsibly. Its hard enough to get them to use ONE properly. No disrespect, but until you can prove otherwise, I see it as a parlor trick of the day. I have no doubt that you could run down the middle of a lane with each hand pointing in opposite directions and hit targets, but what if you mix in some no shoots randomly down that same line? Will the shooter have enough input to make that decision to pull the trigger or not?

I guess my point is that I'd rather verify the threat before pulling the trigger.

 

[AzQkr]

arnisandyz;

This would not be used unless the threats had been ID'd already. Irresponsibly shooting at unverified threats with one gun using direct vision would be the same, of course.

It has limited applications, but applications nonetheless in certain situations IF you carry two guns, IF you know how to use them with enhanced peripheral vision simultaneously, and IF the SD distances are optimal.

I can think of several scenarios where the threats have been ID'd BEFORE one draws to fire in SD, in fact most SD shootings, the threat/s have been ID'd before drawing your own weapon. Did you think I was talking about randomly drawing two guns in a potential SD situation before the threats/s had been verified for some reason?

You also do not have to fire on the threats, but could hold one on each quite well. Can you cover two potential threats with one gun? I can't. Can you look at two threats at the same time with one gun? I can't.

You can "see" two simultaneous threats if you know how to develop and enhance your peripheral vision however. You can also put two guns on twoi threats at the same time with the same skills.

If you read the posts on the link, people have picked this up in minutes, not hours or days. I've done the R+D to develop the technique for those interested in having the skills this brings. It took some time to develop, and once the key was found to unlock the natural potential in all of us to use the enhanced peripheral vision, it became childs play, and the students being able to repeat the skills immediately proves the key does unlock this door.

I did not suggest anyone could use this in a defensive situation. I simply stated they can be trained to use this technique. I know of many people who have been trained in one technique or another who couldn't use the skills in a self defense situation. Whether one can use anything taught them will depend on that individuals mindset, makeup and level of practice so that the confidence to use the skills won't let them hesitate at the moment of truth.

I prove it in the students reviews and comments who have posted their successes with this almost from the first magazine in minutes. Whether you believe it can be done or not, can be trained in people in short time spans or not, or could be used successfully on the streets or not is not something I can't change unless you take the time to see for yourself.

The rewards are many. People learn to use their offside hand very quickly, learn to shoot one handed accurately, learn their full natural potential through this technique.

Is it a parlor trick? It sure is if you can't repeat the same thing yourself becuase you lack the knowledge of "how to" do something others can. Thats what parlor tricks are by their very nature. However, when the student can do the same thing in minutes, their minds wrap around the idea that they suddenly are capable of something they never thought possible from anyone, let alone themselves. The lights come on, and they realize their full natural abilities.

It's not difficult, but you have to hold the key to be able to unlock the door, just like anything in life. I hold the key to that door and train others by giving them the key, they themselves unlock the door with their own newfound abilities.

Brownie

 

[arnisandyz]

My post was not to question your methodology, but to determine how valid this would be in defensive situation...for me. You listed the benifits, I listed possible drawbacks. Running down the line KNOWING your suppose to shoot everything is different from making real-world decisions real-time. Why would I want to develop this skill if I feel it has limited real-world application or worse, carries the liablity factor with it?

Thanks for the reply Mr Brownie and best of luck in your quest. As for me...I hold the key as well, it's just to a different door.

Peace.

 

[AzQkr]

arnisandyz;
Running down the line KNOWING your suppose to shoot everything is different from making real-world decisions real-time.

Twice you have mentioned running down the line in your posts. Not sure what scenario you might be thinking of, but having worked the streets for 28 years armed, meeting up with BG who needed to be dealt with, I've never seen or heard of anyone "Running down the line" with a handgun in a SD shooting.

Why would I want to develop this skill if I feel it has limited real-world application or worse, carries the liablity factor with it?

Why would anyone want to learn the higher levels of sword play, or the knife, or boxing, the double sticks or H2H techniques? It's not any different than any of the above with any weapons platform sir.

Higher knowledge of understanding with any weapons platforms and the pursuit of all you can be is the answer. There are those who understand that though they may never have to use the Arnis or Kali sticks, they train them in those platforms just the same till the weapon becomes one with the user. Till it's not foreign to them, and they are comfortable to extreme with that particular weapon. No more or less.

I hold the key as well, it's just to a different door.

One should endeavor to hold as many keys to as many doors as they can if their life depends on such things on the streets. There are many doors to unlock in the world.

One key to one door does not solve every problem, therefore I'm more comfortable with as many keys as I can obtain, particularly with chosen weapons platforms.

I've trained in defensive knife for years, though the chance of having to use that which I carry daily is slim at best. That did not preclude my training in that weapon system to a high level of skill, nor learning double knife skills.

I've trained in stick for years, though the chance of my having to use that training on the street is slim as well. In fact, having worked the street, as I mentioned before for almost 30 years, I never once had to use my knife, or the stick, but I trained them nonetheless.

Ones education never stops, there is always something to be learned. Not just something with an inanimate object like the stick, knife or gun, but something of yourself and your true abilities with the tools at the higher levels.

Will I ever have to shoot behind my back without turning to face the threat? It hasn't happened in 30 years working the streets. Yet, I practice that technique and hold that key as well. It's all just an ongoing quest to understand the weapons potential and more importantly, my own potential with the weapon I have with me at the time.

If my thought process was that I would only train for that which had no limited application, I may never have learned made the effort to train in the weapons I have trained in. The chance of being involved in a SD situation with a gun is slim to none statistically, yet I still carry one daily, and train to use it to my and it's full potential.

The chances of getting into a knife fight where I need that weapon are slim and none as well statistically, yet I train to the higher levels of that tool as well and carry one daily.

Carrying a gun is a liability to begin with. If one is unprepared to take on that liability, one should not carry or use that tool to beign with, afterall, if you don't have a gun, you can never miss and hit an innocent right?

Brownie

 

[arnisandyz]

arnisandyz;
[/I]Twice you have mentioned running down the line in your posts. Not sure what scenario you might be thinking of, but having worked the streets for 28 years armed, meeting up with BG who needed to be dealt with, I've never seen or heard of anyone "Running down the line" with a handgun in a SD shooting.

Sorry, maybe you can be more specific on your drill. I assumed you were running this scenereo as a live fire drill. Are you standing with guns drawn at the low ready? If I'm facing multiple BGs that require me to use multiple weapons I sure as hell am not standing still. Whether I move down the line to split the BGs, shooting on the move to cover or move laterally to line them up. I'm moving. Are you advocating standing your ground as you engage the targets? From your knowledge of double stick and knife fighting you already know footwork and working the angles are the keys to largo mano. Movement also adressess your other question...

"Can you cover two potential threats with one gun? I can't. Can you look at two threats at the same time with one gun?"

If one is 45 degrees forward left, and the other is 45 degrees forward right, it might be worth it to try to move one way or the other as your firing on the closer target (the one your zoning towards) to try to put the BGs in more a linear arrangement. Make the other BG move or fire around the other one. You will also be narrowing your peripheral vision which should make your type of 2 hand shooting easier although it won't look as impressive. For a single pistol shooter you're narrowing your transition time from one target to the other.

Another issue with double weapon is the draw. I would have a hard enough time drawing one firearm under a stressful situation, using the other hand to clear my shirt, how do you get both out at the same time? In any case, I was reading more on your method of target focused shooting on your forum and it is interesting.


Thanks,

Andy

 

[AzQkr]

Andy,

There's a time to be moving and there's a time to stand and deliver. Both have there place in the training environment and streets.

Guys like Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryce, Bill Fairbairn, Sykes and Col. Askins all made a hell of a living killing men in the stand and deliver types of shooting. They were modern day killers without peers in their day. Most were hip or close to hip shooters never bothering to bring the gun anywhere near line of sight [ eye level ].

There's also a time to be moving out of the kill zone, off the BG's centerline while drawing and shooting. The probem most have with moving and shooting is their hits fall far below the norm which for most is low to begin with when the adrenaline dumps.

Integrated Threat Focus Training Systems trains people in both methodologies. WW2 FAS type shooting from the hip, and 3/4 hip as well as from below eye level [ around the nose to mouth level ] with the Quick Kill techniqes I'm trained in specifically.

I can't say if I'll move and shoot in any particular given situation as there are too many variables that are unknowns. I also can't say I'll stand and deliver for the same reason.

I'll likely be using one gun, thats usually all I carry now. In the past, when working assignments on protection details, I did carry two [ usually identical gov45's ]. One crossdraw and the other strongside. Each had their strengths [ like the crossdraw for entering and exiting vehicles or while seated ]. The crossdraw could be drawn with the left hand [ I shoot right handed normally ], but am actually ambidextrous for most everything.

The enhanced peripheral 2 gun shooting is not on the move, it is specifically for stand and deliver, at least initially. Nothing in stone that says once one is started, it won't go to moving sometime after the initiation of the actions.

The technqiue is for those times you may be confronted with multiple adversaries, the action is anyhwere from 6 to maybe 20 feet, or when a group of people start trying to circle in behind your six while others are keeping you busy and distracted. If the disparity of force and other criteria for self defense [ use of deadly force ] presents itself, knowing you can use both at out to 65 degrees [ thats about max for me ] on either side simultaneously might be something useful to own. Other scenarios/situations could come up where while firing with one, I'd draw the second gun on another threat that presents from the other side, as I can take two at the same time which is going to be faster than boarding house rules of one each and returning to the first one, and somewhat safer in the long run if you have the ability to use this.

Zoning is a theory that can work, and may not like anything else in a rapidly changing environ. Zoning against non projectile weapons is, IMO, much more succesful than against multiples with guns unless one or more are very close. Zoning also requires being able to put rounds reliably on threats that are tracking/moving while you are moving. It is very doable, but will require the shooter to have some very good skills, skills which most do not possess nor practice due to swaure range rules.

I'm fortunate here in the desert as at times, I can shoot almost in a 360 arc, and am not limited to square ranges. One of our drills developed for classes is called "Sprint and Hits". Using one gun, from 6-10 feet starting against an adversary drawing on you, you literally sprint out at a 45 degree arc on either side and away. Hits are over 90% on these drills on almost a flat out run to a rear oblique. One side will be shooting one handed, the other two hands initially.

While moving out of the kill zone ans shooting one, another threat can present from an angle that would allow the second gun to be drawn and fired simultaneously. In that case, one would be going from peripheral vision shooting [ threat focused ], on one to the enhanced mode of peripheral vision and shooting two.

The transition is something people need to play with, and is not something we take the time in classes to get people to run in drills. We train techniques covering elbow/up/elbow down from the hip, the zipper, the hammer, all one handed for anything that needs fast shots on open close targets.

We also train techniques that require you to move and shoot from the same situation as well as techniques for times the distances are somewhat past 8-12 feet. These would be Quick Fire, Quick Kill, and use of sights as time, size of threat shown and distances permit.

The technqiues can be run together in any order, used individually or as stand alone, giving the shooter/student many options at their disposal based on what they feel is required at the time and the training they have but most importantly, theor confidence in making the shots no matter what techniques they choose to use.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223

These links will take your to reviews of the techniques and the students thoughts on the courses ITFTS offers the shooting public. In the reviews, you note that not one is using their sights at some pretty far targets with a minimal of training.

How the students then run those technqiues together or use them individually, whether the moving side of tthings or the stand and deliver side is up to them to decide at the moment of truth.

Our job is to make sure the students have the confidence in their ability to make hits, on the move, standing, from bad breath out to considerable distances as the situations dictate. Some tactics mindset is covered as to why a certain technique would be included in the course at times, and at other times, it is pure skills training.

It is up to each student to then take what they have learned and apply it on the streets as they deem necessary. Not all of the techniques will ever be used, but they are in the bag of tricks [ sorta speak ], if they should find they ever do need them.

As I mentioned, I also shoot behind my back out to 10 feet with direct center hits 100% of the time and have since developing that technique back around 93 or so. I don't ever expect to have to use it, but it's there nonetheless.

My thought on training others mirrors the mentors I had back in the day. That to give the people real skills, useable skills, the confidence that comes with knowing these skills are there for them, and let the students go forth and then determine which ones they will use at the moment of truth if it comes to pass they are that unfortunate.

One of the adjunct rewards to the 2 gun technique which has to be used with enhanced peripheral vision [ EPV ] skills is that the even with one gun, you could peripherally"see" someone to your oblique appear and that is totally opposite most who will be tunnel visioned on the known threat in front of them.

Any exercise that can keep you from directly focusing on a known threat and tunnel visioning is a benefit in these events. The EPV helps you even when you are using one gun in ways most will not imagine possible until they have taken the time to learn how their natural abilities can be enhanced with little to no effort. I've already done the work, the hard part, and this skill is actually very easy to own.

Brownie

 

[arnisandyz]

Thanks,

Do you sell any training videos or is it specifically private classes?, not so much 2 pistol shooting, but more in line with the target focus point shooting. I do use this type of focus in competition (IDPA/IPSC) shooting when the course dictates it. I feel comfortable out to about 21 feet using this focus but would like to expand that if possible. It is faster and more instinctive on the close range stuff than front sight focus. I was looking on your site at that 1911 with no sights, very interesting.

Andy

 

[AzQkr]

I don't have training vids out presently Andy. I only recently started this ITFTS venture last year and the courses are on the road as interest in an area is expressed or one on one with me here in the desert.

I've been asked to write a book on the pistol QK threat focused methodology [ I own the registered copyright to that technique ] which I have started. The primary goal is to get the skills into the hands of those who may need them, or just want them like the man who's going to be here for two days mid august with me one on one.

We have a course schedules for mid Oct in Knoxville, and another whose dates are not set yet for the fall in Pa again. Houston is a possible at this point as well as Mass. or NH in the spring.

Some get the one on one, then get into a class on the road later like RJS has done. I won't release a book or video until it well thought out and produced professionally. I' not of the mindset to just "sell" something, but more of the mindset to make sure whatever is released is the best I can put out there in content and techniques.

Some will get a class going in their area and sponsor the class, getting the training for free in doing so.

Brownie

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Would it be posible for you to give us a quick synopsis about your Quick Kill methodology? Perhaps comparing it to other target focused or point shooting systems?

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[AzQkr]

Sure thing Jeff,

Here's the link to the narrative of:
Handgun or Pistol Quick Kill [ QK ] Shooting Technique © TM

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46

Brownie

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

I've read through this and a few other threads with interest, as separating Hollywood and Reality is a hobby of mine. I have to ask a few simple questions however. One actually.

What are your intentions?

A number of your posts read to me like marketing, and with the large number of links you are posting to another forum, one might get the impression that you are only here to market a program or forum, not really dig in and contribute here. If that is in fact the case, I will advise you that many here take a dim view to spammers, and a dimmer one to the "covert" spammers. If you are here to market, you need to discuss advertising rates and terms with the balding guy who owns the site.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

A couple of things,

Thanks for link detailing the history of what you are doing.

It was kind of informative, but really didn't make me think what you are teaching is anything different from what others do.

Secondly, I have to agree with Edmund. Many of your posts seem more like infomercials than invitations to conversation.

Jeff

 

[Carol]

A couple of things,

Thanks for link detailing the history of what you are doing.

It was kind of informative, but really didn't make me think what you are teaching is anything different from what others do.

Secondly, I have to agree with Edmund. Many of your posts seem more like infomercials than invitations to conversation.

Jeff

I agree. Conversation is to me is an exchange of ideas, where this has all been pretty much one-sided. But what do I know :idunno:

Although I prefer to think of Bob as shaven rather than balding he has some quite affordable rates to promote your ideas. MartialTalk offers a sponsored forum for anyone to talk and promote whatever they like. You sound like you have quite a bit to talk about and promote, Mr. Brown. I bet Bob would be very interested at having you on board as a forum sponsor.

 

[AzQkr]

First,
I posted on an enhanced peripheral skill, and answered anothers specific concerns about that specific skill in replies.

I supplied links as a way of not having to rewrite narrative which has already been published.

In answering anothers questions, did it not create dialogue and discussion on a specific subject? That of enhanced peripheral vision and the specific technique which get people to that that skill?

Exchange of ideas and information, is that not what forums are for?

Jeff, specific reference points used in the skills talked about are not used by anyone else in the training community. Those very reference points make it unique in nature and seperate it from others trainings regimen.

Others certianly train people in threat focused skills, FAS, Quick Fire, Elbow up/ Elbow down etc. Some of the training is very unique and portions are well known through writings by Applegate, Fairbairn and Sykes from the ww2 era.

Enahnced peripheral vision can be used with many forms of things martial, it just so happens these skills are used by myself in the form of firearms training. It could also be exended to that of double stick and sword or any number of two handed weapons skills.

I wondered why the thread was locked to begin with, now I understand why. Do others promote their own style of training, exhange ideas of various techniques here? I was under the impression thats what this forum was about.

If I've made a mistake in judgement as to the purpose of the forum, my apologies for assuming there wasa firearms section here for the very specific purpose of exchange of ideas, techniques and the accompanying discussion relative their benefits.

btw- I would not presume to speak in other subforums about things I don't train in and can't speak intelligently about. The subject of firearms is a subject I know quite a bit about. I presumed people here would be interested in matters of training with firearms. The post was simple in its intent. Bring discussion about something very few know anything about, to enlighten in matters I can speak intellgently about and just perhaps to get people to think there is more than meets the eye where this form of martial training is concerned.

Brownie

 

[AzQkr]

I'll just throw this out for the membersip as well. The idea of Proprioception is not new, nor something not medically understood and proven. It is one of the research projects which has led to understanding the bodies function and why we are capable of things we don't know we are capable of. It's not well known in the training communities for the most part but it does support the idea of this thread.
_____________________________________________________________

Proprioception: how and why?

There are five common senses that are discussed and learned from an early age: sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The I-function, the conscious part of the brain, is very aware of these senses. It voluntarily checks information obtained by these senses in order to experience the environment, and also when a strong enough stimuli has signaled attention to these specific receptors. There are other equally important sensory systems set up that are essential for normal body functioning, but these are not so easily recognized by the I-function because the nervous system keeps the input unconscious.

The paper by Shannon Lee on this subject and which the above is an excerpt, can be found here:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neur...web2/slee.html

Brownie

 

[Carol]

It may help to take a look at the rules
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

Personally, I'd seriously recommend sending a private message to Bob Hubbard, who is the site's owner. He's a good guy and can talk to you more about setting up your own forum so you can promote all your techniques and your ideas. I've talked to him about plans of my own, he's well worth the time and money. IMO, you'd reach a good audience here on MT and would be able to promote yourself to a great audience that would be quite receptive to your ventures. Plus, you get to support a great martial arts community in the process. Win win all around!

 

[AzQkr]

Website links of a resource, historical or technical nature are permitted in the art specific fora, as well as the "Whats New" forum.
- Linking to articles or information is permitted, provided the site being linked too allows it.

I've met this rule, the links provided so far in this thread were to information that was requested or in support of the posts.

Seminar, Camp and event notifications, reports and reviews are both allowed and encouraged!

The links seem to have met this rule as well as they were to reviews of the subject either asked for or in support of the posts.

Linking to articles on other forums -is- permitted.

The links provided seem to meet this rule as well.

Brownie

 

[shesulsa]

Yeah, it's generally not kewl to just link to your own forum as a substitution for quality conversation in another forum ... nettiquette, ya know.

So I read - very briefly, I admit - on your peripheral training and it's identical to some visual therapy techniques I learned.

May I ask which branch of the military you served in?

thanks.

 

[AzQkr]

Jarhead, 69-71 4/11 and 3/12

You're welcome

Brownie