Point Shooting

chinto

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In a recent thread, this article was posted. Near the bottom the author uses the statistics to argue for a need for Point-shooting practice, and suggests the "Vermont Method."

It's time for me to begin learning how to Point Shoot. So, before I go too far into one particular method, I figured I would get some feedback from you all.

I'm not going into sport shooting competitions, but I want something that I could use if I'm surprised. I've learned the "Front sight press", but in Low-light conditions, I'm stuck.

I carry a Glock 21 (.45 ACP), and I have a CO2 airsoft gun to match it, with a short-range airsoft target in my garage for practice. (About 10 ft.) I carry IWB at about 4:00.

What do you guys like? There aren't any instructors around here for point shooting, and I can sight shoot about as well as anybody I know, (I had some training form a national long-distance pistol champion.) I also don't have any money to travel and attend a seminar, unless one is very close to where I live. (Southern Oregon, or Northern Cal.)


I prefer the old Col. Rex Applegate point and shoot system that was tought and proven in close combat in WWII by the commando's rangers and OSS and SOE. works great for close in, of course at 25 M or more sights become some what practical in a combat situation. but at say 5M or less you will provably not see the sights on your weapon, just the threat.
 
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thardey

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I prefer the old Col. Rex Applegate point and shoot system that was tought and proven in close combat in WWII by the commando's rangers and OSS and SOE. works great for close in, of course at 25 M or more sights become some what practical in a combat situation. but at say 5M or less you will provably not see the sights on your weapon, just the threat.

Got any more information on that?
 

chinto

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Got any more information on that?

yes, his book and also plenty of statistics of police shooting multiple magazines of ammo at a suspect at less then 15 ft and missing with all 14 to 40 rounds!!

the book is called "Kill or Get Killed" by Col. Rex Applegate and is published by paladin press ISBN0-87364-085-3
this book covers a lot of skills and are all combat proven in actual combat in WWII and Korea as well as many police agency's around the world use the information he developed.

for unarmed combat I would suggest if you have the ability and time you take a good traditional martial art. but his unarmed combat system is a troop system designed for very short training time... but it also has some good knife defense and weapon retention information too.

as to seeing only the threat at close range, it is called tunneling. and your vision tunnels in on the treat. you see the attacker and especially his weapon if he has it. you will not see your sights , and so if trained to shoot only with sights you blast away and do not hit any thing. .. that is why there are newspaper stories of 40 round and the suspect at 9ft was missed every time... and note that in that shoot out the anti gun nuts always point at at the LA bank, where the men had assault rifles and body armor the cops kept shooting for center mass and not at say their feet! a shot gun load of shot in their feet would have put them down.. the shoes were not covered by Kevlar or trauma plates!!! but since they never train to shoot any where but center mass they did not go for head shots or feet or any where else with shot guns or pistols!
 
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thardey

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yes, his book and also plenty of statistics of police shooting multiple magazines of ammo at a suspect at less then 15 ft and missing with all 14 to 40 rounds!!

the book is called "Kill or Get Killed" by Col. Rex Applegate and is published by paladin press ISBN0-87364-085-3
this book covers a lot of skills and are all combat proven in actual combat in WWII and Korea as well as many police agency's around the world use the information he developed.

for unarmed combat I would suggest if you have the ability and time you take a good traditional martial art. but his unarmed combat system is a troop system designed for very short training time... but it also has some good knife defense and weapon retention information too.

as to seeing only the threat at close range, it is called tunneling. and your vision tunnels in on the treat. you see the attacker and especially his weapon if he has it. you will not see your sights , and so if trained to shoot only with sights you blast away and do not hit any thing. .. that is why there are newspaper stories of 40 round and the suspect at 9ft was missed every time... and note that in that shoot out the anti gun nuts always point at at the LA bank, where the men had assault rifles and body armor the cops kept shooting for center mass and not at say their feet! a shot gun load of shot in their feet would have put them down.. the shoes were not covered by Kevlar or trauma plates!!! but since they never train to shoot any where but center mass they did not go for head shots or feet or any where else with shot guns or pistols!

I wanted to bump up this thread with some updates.

I got that book, and practiced some of the ideas in there last night. I appreciate it, I liked his approach very much. That was almost exactly what I had in my mind when I asked about "point shooting" at the beginning of this thread. He explained it very clearly, and it wasn't hard to try.

Another thing I tried last night was with my airsoft gun in the garage. I got a pack of glow-in-the-dark bb's, and a sticky target from wal-mart. (They work great, btw!) After a few practice draws in full light, I turned off the light, and left enough bb's on the target to show where it was. (range was about 8 feet).

It was a totally different experience not being able to see the gun. I didn't realize how much, even peripherally, I was sighting the gun, even if I wasn't using the sights themselves. It didn't take long for me to adjust (maybe 20 rounds), and then it was fine, but at first I had no idea where I was shooting. I highly recommend this exercise for anybody interested in point-shooting. I intend to add pitch-black shooting to my "in town" shooting practice, alongside dry-firing and airsoft "quick-draw" practice.

By the end the hardest part was loading the bb's into the magazine without turning the lights on!
 

chinto

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I wanted to bump up this thread with some updates.

I got that book, and practiced some of the ideas in there last night. I appreciate it, I liked his approach very much. That was almost exactly what I had in my mind when I asked about "point shooting" at the beginning of this thread. He explained it very clearly, and it wasn't hard to try.

Another thing I tried last night was with my airsoft gun in the garage. I got a pack of glow-in-the-dark bb's, and a sticky target from wal-mart. (They work great, btw!) After a few practice draws in full light, I turned off the light, and left enough bb's on the target to show where it was. (range was about 8 feet).

It was a totally different experience not being able to see the gun. I didn't realize how much, even peripherally, I was sighting the gun, even if I wasn't using the sights themselves. It didn't take long for me to adjust (maybe 20 rounds), and then it was fine, but at first I had no idea where I was shooting. I highly recommend this exercise for anybody interested in point-shooting. I intend to add pitch-black shooting to my "in town" shooting practice, alongside dry-firing and airsoft "quick-draw" practice.

By the end the hardest part was loading the bb's into the magazine without turning the lights on!


glad to hear you liked it... all his techniques were proven many times in WWII and since in real life and death combat by military and intelligence operatives, and law enforcement encounters.

it really does work.

there are also some things about weapons retention and handling persons as prisoners safely....
 

AzQkr

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If you are not rotating the muzzle toward the thread as soon as it clears leather/whatever within 4 yrds, you are wasting time. From 3- 12 feet [ and further ] a trained threat focused shooter can put rds on threat from the time it clears holster and the muzzle is horizontal, and continue firing on threat throughout the extension of the shooting arm until the pistol is just below line of sight.

That draw above encompasses two skills sets. The Elbow Up/Elbow Down [ also known as drawing to the half hip position from Fairbairn and Sykes of ww2 ] and the zipper.

That draw also puts 4-5 rounds on the threat before you can raise your arm to line of sight. As to the subject of the scoop draw, it has a place in a few of the threat focused skills.

If you aren't going to use a few of the better threat focused skills which have served the likes of Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryce and Col. Charles Askins as they survived with their sidearms to your advantage, you wouldn't have need to scoop the gun like they and others would.

Brownie
 
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thardey

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If you are not rotating the muzzle toward the thread as soon as it clears leather/whatever within 4 yrds, you are wasting time. From 3- 12 feet [ and further ] a trained threat focused shooter can put rds on threat from the time it clears holster and the muzzle is horizontal, and continue firing on threat throughout the extension of the shooting arm until the pistol is just below line of sight.

That draw above encompasses two skills sets. The Elbow Up/Elbow Down [ also known as drawing to the half hip position from Fairbairn and Sykes of ww2 ] and the zipper.

That draw also puts 4-5 rounds on the threat before you can raise your arm to line of sight. As to the subject of the scoop draw, it has a place in a few of the threat focused skills.

If you aren't going to use a few of the better threat focused skills which have served the likes of Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryce and Col. Charles Askins as they survived with their sidearms to your advantage, you wouldn't have need to scoop the gun like they and others would.

Brownie

I just checked out
Handgun or Pistol Quick Kill [ QK ] Shooting Technique

Your top sticky on handgun shooting. I liked the idea of "aiming" two inches below.

Now, place the end of that finger about 2 inches below your target. Move your arm, NOT JUST THE FINGER. Then, lower your head and try to sight along the length of it. You will be on the object. Raise your head and you will see the end of the finger still about 2 inches below the object. The reference point can be different depending on the person and gun being used. Many handguns have different natural pointing abilities. Just start out at 2 inches below the target initially.

I learned this idea when I learned to shoot bow and arrow as a kid (I didn't get to use sights until I could shoot by sight). Sort of the same thing. You find a reference point of where the arrowhead should be in relation to the target. It's surprisingly accurate.

I found that when shooting one-handed, I was about two inches below, and one inch to the right. Shooting two-handed was centered, but two inches below. (That is, my finger moved two inches, not two inches as measured at the target. My finger was resting 8 inches or so from the target. Does that make sense?)

I also found that anywhere between those two inches, and "dead on" produced about the same accuracy. That meant that once I got my gun/finger to a certain height, I could fire accurately while continuing to move the gun towards a "sight picture." That is, I wasn't stuck with either "point shooting" or "sight shooting," but could instinctively transfer from one to the other.

I also found that using Applegate's one-handed stance (actually Fariburn's, I think, leaning forward), that two inches below "sight picture" is actually pretty low, and is a very quick draw.
 

AzQkr

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thardey,

Your post is spot on with the results you were seeing [ students all get the same results with this skill ], and how quick it is to pick up naturally using your peripheral vision and the gun below line of sight.

I've used this skill since 1981 [ unless I really need a very precise shot ], and from then until about 3 years ago, people were clueless that I wasn't using the sights for one reason------that being,

I out-shot most of them even when shooting plate racks or bowling pins in competition. We've all seen the threads and posts where people denigrate any form of pointshooting/threat focused skills for anything over 4-5 feet or contact distance, those opinions [ yes, they are only opinions and not fact ] are baseless in fact in real world skills and one of the reasons so many people balk at the idea.

Here's a quote from a student in Tenn based on his real time observations [ along with the rest of the students ] last summer.

" The thing to remember isn't that you're not replacing sight shooting skills with these skills. This just provides additional skills. Brownie may be able to chew a ragged 2 inch hole out of a target with 2 handed QK at 30 feet, but I would still use my sights if I had to put bullets into a space that precise at that range"

That was 17 rounds into that group, not 2-3 shots in case anyone is wondering. I don't see many people who can hold a 2" group at 30 feet using their sights, let alone without them, but the proof is in the training of the skills that are easy to learn, easy to replicate and easy to use. Saving time by not looking for that front sight picture or front sight press/MT techniques.

I've heard things like "I'm fast enough with this or that form of the Modern Technique [ front sight, eyes on the front sight, blah, blah blah, etc ] and what they all fail to realize is they'd be faster without direct sights verification. You can lead em to the water, but can't make em drink it.

Another quick quote from a student who did 22 years as an SF Pathfinder, now retired who took my threat focused training systems course last fall. He's been to thunder ranch, and other big name MT schools while a civilian, been trained to one of the highest levels of MT skills while in the service of this country--with that as his background, he had this to say:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1411

"After lurking about on this forum as well as others I made the decision to take Brownie's "Quick Kill/ Threat Focused Response" class this past weekend in Flagstaff. I've been shooting for over 25 years in both the military and the civillian world. I've been to a number of the high end shooting schools and am always striving to maintain and develop tactics and mindset.

Having said that, I can say this was this was the finest real world training I've had. Due to 4 no-shows our class was only 4 people. Excellent, more one on one training for me I thought. I won't get into all the skills and drills, you can read about them on the forum. When I get instruction I try to leave as much of my baggage behind and get into the student mode. I don't want to be coddled or pampered. Brownie has a no BS approach to training. I love that. It's when I learn and retain the most. I put 1300 rounds downrange in one day. I've never shot that much in any civillian school. I actually had to tape my fingers due to wear on my grip tape and trigger wear.If you're not bleeding, you're not training hard enough right? The instruction was intense, focused and fun. When I indicated I wanted to skip lunch and continue to shoot Brownie stayed on the line with me and helped fine tune my technique. Never saw that level of commitment in any school by the head Instructor!

The tactics and skills Brownie teachs and has developed are quite simply the fastest way to kill an opponent.That's the stuff I want. I was hitting targets out to 100 yards using no sights. On the second day my front sight boke off, no biggie, I wasn't using it and didn't need it anyway.

I was a confident shooter prior to taking this class but after completing it I feel as if the skills and tactics taught by Brownie will be the ones to save my life in the event of a real world gunfight. They are the ones I will spend my precious training time on. No more front sight trigger press for me."


[/I]Brownie
 

AzQkr

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I should also mention here that it's not really about what I can do with threat focused skills, it's about what the students can do in short periods of time using the same skills.

Developing ones proprioceptors and understanding how to develop and fine tune your proprioception skills in practice encourages the mind let things happen subconsciously allowing your trained eye/hand coordination skills to work most efficiently.

The students comments state whats possible while threat focused through their own observations and professional training.

Brownie
 

5shot

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I have a site that provides lots of free info on different methods of Point Shooting and on self defense. QK, FAS, CAR, P&S.

I favor P&S, which has been alluded to in this thread, incorrectly.

The US Army and Marine Corps pistol manuals, with their discussion of the Natural Point of Aim (NPA) will be added back in today.
 

sgtmac_46

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thardey,

Your post is spot on with the results you were seeing [ students all get the same results with this skill ], and how quick it is to pick up naturally using your peripheral vision and the gun below line of sight.

I've used this skill since 1981 [ unless I really need a very precise shot ], and from then until about 3 years ago, people were clueless that I wasn't using the sights for one reason------that being,

I out-shot most of them even when shooting plate racks or bowling pins in competition. We've all seen the threads and posts where people denigrate any form of pointshooting/threat focused skills for anything over 4-5 feet or contact distance, those opinions [ yes, they are only opinions and not fact ] are baseless in fact in real world skills and one of the reasons so many people balk at the idea.

Here's a quote from a student in Tenn based on his real time observations [ along with the rest of the students ] last summer.

" The thing to remember isn't that you're not replacing sight shooting skills with these skills. This just provides additional skills. Brownie may be able to chew a ragged 2 inch hole out of a target with 2 handed QK at 30 feet, but I would still use my sights if I had to put bullets into a space that precise at that range"

That was 17 rounds into that group, not 2-3 shots in case anyone is wondering. I don't see many people who can hold a 2" group at 30 feet using their sights, let alone without them, but the proof is in the training of the skills that are easy to learn, easy to replicate and easy to use. Saving time by not looking for that front sight picture or front sight press/MT techniques.

I've heard things like "I'm fast enough with this or that form of the Modern Technique [ front sight, eyes on the front sight, blah, blah blah, etc ] and what they all fail to realize is they'd be faster without direct sights verification. You can lead em to the water, but can't make em drink it.

Another quick quote from a student who did 22 years as an SF Pathfinder, now retired who took my threat focused training systems course last fall. He's been to thunder ranch, and other big name MT schools while a civilian, been trained to one of the highest levels of MT skills while in the service of this country--with that as his background, he had this to say:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1411

"After lurking about on this forum as well as others I made the decision to take Brownie's "Quick Kill/ Threat Focused Response" class this past weekend in Flagstaff. I've been shooting for over 25 years in both the military and the civillian world. I've been to a number of the high end shooting schools and am always striving to maintain and develop tactics and mindset.

Having said that, I can say this was this was the finest real world training I've had. Due to 4 no-shows our class was only 4 people. Excellent, more one on one training for me I thought. I won't get into all the skills and drills, you can read about them on the forum. When I get instruction I try to leave as much of my baggage behind and get into the student mode. I don't want to be coddled or pampered. Brownie has a no BS approach to training. I love that. It's when I learn and retain the most. I put 1300 rounds downrange in one day. I've never shot that much in any civillian school. I actually had to tape my fingers due to wear on my grip tape and trigger wear.If you're not bleeding, you're not training hard enough right? The instruction was intense, focused and fun. When I indicated I wanted to skip lunch and continue to shoot Brownie stayed on the line with me and helped fine tune my technique. Never saw that level of commitment in any school by the head Instructor!

The tactics and skills Brownie teachs and has developed are quite simply the fastest way to kill an opponent.That's the stuff I want. I was hitting targets out to 100 yards using no sights. On the second day my front sight boke off, no biggie, I wasn't using it and didn't need it anyway.

I was a confident shooter prior to taking this class but after completing it I feel as if the skills and tactics taught by Brownie will be the ones to save my life in the event of a real world gunfight. They are the ones I will spend my precious training time on. No more front sight trigger press for me."


[/i]Brownie
The issue what Brownie can do.....there is such a thing as phenomenal natural skill.....the issue is what he can teach the average person to do. Sighted-fire versus point shooting. A real test would be to take two groups of like people and teach them both methods and see which ones can replicate that feat the easiest.

That's not a dismissal of point-shooting.......but i'll stick with the Modern Technique sent down from God to Jeff Cooper until I see something that convinces me otherwise.......flash sight picture.

Considering that point shooting philosophy pre-dates Jeff Cooper's codification of the Modern Technique, and was well worked out under Applegate and Fairbairn, it's had ample opportunity to be tested and no one can really say it hasn't been given a fair shake. If it works for you, use it......but the notion that it's superior in some way to the Modern Technique is not in evidence.

DVC.......Diligentia Vis Celeritas

Just my humble opinion only.
 
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Deaf Smith

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Now guys, I've sparred with brownie over at GT and other places for many a year. So let me weigh in on this.

Yes point shooting can work. So can sighted fire. But, one can spend time learning two totaly different ways of shooting or just learn one (and Paul Howe feels the same way.)

If you train to always bring the weapon up to the same place you will find the sights are pretty much in alignment. You can use that rough alignment at close range quite fine (and this is really what flash sight picture is all about.) You see, with flash sight picture you don't adjust the sights at all. You don't even have to focus your eyes much on them as long as you can verify they have sufficent alignment to get a good hit at the ranges you need to hit!

What is more, as you practice this you will see that in low light and darkness, you can use the same presentation (read draw) and the sights, while not seeable, will still be in that same rough alignment, and thus you fire just as if you could see the sights!

This is all part of the Modern Technique Doctrine (MT).

Now life did not end when the MT came around and things have been learned to build on? Nope! Some sighting methods like soft focus, hard focus, types 1,2,3,4 focus. Trigger methods like prepping or riding the reset. Or recoil management using modified isosceles stances to where you manage the recoil to bring it right back to the same place. Or add such as retention shooting methods that go beyond the speed rock. Yes much has been learned and added to our knowledge.

You will still find that just learning a method of retention shooting and a method of sighted fire will do all that needs doing. If you master that, then it will get you through the night (as Ayoob would say.) It's the base. Every thing else past the base is just nice to have.

If you want to go farther and learn point shooting, I say fine. I encourge you do to that. I hip shoot a real lot and it's my favorite close range shooting method. But do this only after you have master the two above and you want to learn more.

Deaf
 

AzQkr

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The issue what Brownie can do.....there is such a thing as phenomenal natural skill.....the issue is what he can teach the average person to do. Sighted-fire versus point shooting.

Got it, here's some AAR's from students who were all sighted fire MT users before taking a two day Integrated Threat Focused Trainign Systems [ ITFTS ] pistol course.

Keep in mind when reading them, these are average people with various experience/skills levels with a firearm.

"Even my wife, who was about as inexperienced with firearms as they come, was quite impressive with her little Kahr MK9, almost immediately. Brownie was kind enough to devote some extra time and attention to her, and when he was done she was downright scary. I wouldn't want to be on the other end of her barrel any day. That is probably what impressed me the most. Regardless of your skill@arms, Brownie will do what it takes to make you competent with your gun."
_____________________________________________________

"Really, I would say that this course is an absolute must-take for anyone serious about self defense. You will blow yourself away with what you learn and how easy some of it is. For the skillset Brownie teaches, for the cost that he charges, it is hands-down worth it. Better than Gunsite? I'd say yes. But its two different set-ups and comparing them gets tough. Both teach good skillsets but I would say that QK and the associated techniques are much more likely to be used. No joke, one of the guys who came (forum member - TacticalCompact) brought his wife. From what I understand, she's not an experienced shooter by any stretch. She came in and just.. WOW!! I was totally impressed but not 100% shocked. Its so intuitive. Really... the gun becomes an extension of your hand."
___________________________________________________

Those one from a 22 year USArmy SF Pathfinder veteran:

"I made the decision to take Brownie's "Quick Kill/ Threat Focused Response" class this past weekend in Flagstaff. I've been shooting for over 25 years in both the military and the civillian world. I've been to a number of the high end shooting schools and am always striving to maintain and develop tactics and mindset."

"Having said that, I can say this was this was the finest real world training I've had"

"The tactics and skills Brownie teachs and has developed are quite simply the fastest way to kill an opponent.That's the stuff I want. I was hitting targets out to 100 yards using no sights. On the second day my front sight boke off, no biggie, I wasn't using it and didn't need it anyway.

I was a confident shooter prior to taking this class but after completing it I feel as if the skills and tactics taught by Brownie will be the ones to save my life in the event of a real world gunfight. They are the ones I will spend my precious training time on. No more front sight trigger press for me."

The above from a man who spent his entire career training the modern technique front sight press skills from the best schools available. HMMmm.
_____________________________________________________________

"Thats how the whole day went- show the skill, do the skill slow, repeat it faster 5-8 magazines, move on. The incredible thing about the training is you OWN the technique, no need to think about it- its natural and instinctive. At lunch and the end of the day he shared the history of the drills and gave some sage insight on how and when to use each.

After the day of training I had gone through over 1200 rounds and had a serious case of Glock Finger where the trigger guard had worn the skin off the side of my middle finger knuckle. I gained so much confidence in my ability to handle a gun it was incredible.

Everyone regardless of experience and background would benefit from attending the course. I forever have a different view of point shooting, and these skills blend seamlessly with my existing abilities"


___________________________________________________________


"I PROBABLY HAVE ABOUT 150,000 PLUS ROUNDS DOWN RANGE ALL OF WHICH I HAVE USED THE TRADITIONAL STYLE OF SEEING MY FRONT SITE ON THE TARGET , I DONT KNOW HOW MANY TIMS I HEARD " FRONT SITE FRONT SITE " HECK I THINK THERE IS EVEN A SCHOOL CALLED FRONT SITE ? WELL LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THIS FIGHTING SYSTEM THAT CAME TO EASTON F&G THAT CHANGED ME KIND OF LIKE WHAT BILL BIXBY GOES THROUGH WHEN HE TURNS INTO THE INCREDIBLE HULK , REMEMBER THAT SHOW .

ROBIN "BROWNIE" BROWN IS HIS NAME AND "QUICK KILL" IS HIS GAME . SIMPLICITY, RUNNING THE GUN ON A VERY PURE SUBCONCIOUS LEVEL. BIENG TOTALLY CONCIOUSLY FOCUSED ON THE THE THREAT\S WHILE NATURALLY MOVING IN ANY DIRECTION, AS FAST AS YOUR BODY WILL ALLOW ,YET GETTING ACCURATE , SUPER FAST HITS ON THE THREATS BEFORE THEY CAN CONSIOUSLY GET ANY ON YOU.


THIS STYLE OF FIGHTING WITH THE GUN IS SO JIUJITSU LIKE , AND YET SO SIMPLE TO LEARN"
_____________________________________________________________

This one from a wife in one of the classes in Knoxville, Tenn:

"That first class, I learned to draw, point and shoot with accuracy. So did Jamie and her husband Andy. You expect a man to pick up a gun and shoot well, but not a young lady. Jamie was drawing her gun and keeping a tight circle of bullet holes in her target that first day. She was enjoying it too! It was amazing that Brownie could take someone that had never shot a gun before and someone like me who had, and teach both of us how to aim without sites and hit a target with such accuracy."

Okay, everyone [ sgtmac_46 I'm sure as well by now ] gets the point he was questioning relative what students, new to shooting, well seasoned vets and any and everyone in between can learn in one or two days ], there's plenty more where these came from over at my site here:http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19

Deaf would have you believe sight fire and retention skills are all thats needed, and once you have these, then you might try threat focused skills.

Unfortunately, he hasn't taken the training to be able to make any judgements on what is or is not necessary here. As we see from the excerpts above, new shooters, shooters with years of professional MT schools training behind them feel differently after taking the course of fire.

They speak from a lifetime of MT and a day or two on threat focused skills. They've seen what they need to make their decisions, and until you actually experience it yourself, it's all just so much subjective banter based on not possessing the knowledge imparted in these courses.

sgtmac_46,

You quoted my post which included several students from various previous skills levels in MT training, and then wrote this:

the issue is what he can teach the average person to do. Sighted-fire versus point shooting. A real test would be to take two groups of like people and teach them both methods and see which ones can replicate that feat the easiest.

Thats been answered several times within the reviews. No one comes to the ITFTS program with anything but MT skills. They're confident the threat focused skills are more apt to keep them alive over any and all of their previous MT skills and training and all within a day or weekend course.

That speaks volumes relative your questioning the ease with which one can learn these skills. I was a little surprised you didn't pick up on that reading the review excerpts yourself and it had to be point out to you.

Brownie




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http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=7771
 

AzQkr

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Double post,

My apologies to everyone.

Fairbairn/Sykes/Applegate skills are well represented in my own courses. These skills have been proven on the streets as far back as the 1930's. Fairbairn and Sykes trained the Shaghai Police upon request due to their losing officers every week in that city. After the training, they documented over 600 gunfight wins in just a few years using the skills imparted in a matter of a day to these officers. It's not rocket science, but then most will never really understand what they're physically capable of in hours until they experience it.

Brownie
 
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sgtmac_46

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While I respect anyone who trains hard to learn the art of the pistol......i'm far from convinced that Point Shooting is superior to the Modern Technique. But that's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.

But I have learned much from the legendary Col. Rex Applegate's writings......'Kill or Get Killed' is well weathered and treasured addition to my book collection. On the topic of Point Shooting, though, I defer to his late contemporary, the also legendary Col. Jeff Cooper.

"Now then, our fellow board member Rex Applegate has been coming forward in various publications with a conspicuous backward step. He has long been an advocate of unsighted pistol fire, and without trying to put the man down I must insist that this question has long been settled. Certainly one can learn to hit reliably with a pistol out to considerable distance providing he starts with a lot of talent and has unlimited opportunity to practice. I, and the other old timers who originated practical pistol shooting, used to do a lot of belt-level point-shooting, and we enjoyed it very much. Ray Chapman, Elden Carl and I used it and demonstrated it at length, but the acknowledged master of the art was Thell Reed. Thell's specialty was not exactly "hip shooting," since he fired with the pistol at belt level and a forearm's length forward, but he could do amazing things that way. I do not expect you to believe it, but I have seen Thell hit that iron chicken at 50 yards consistently, without sights. I certainly admire his amazing talent, but I must point out that when Thell entered competition against any of the original masters he shot from the Weaver Stance.

The idea that one is quicker without sights has been thoroughly disproved. In the time it takes you to get the pistol out of the holster you can raise it to eye level. The fastest single shot I ever saw hit under controlled conditions in competition was shot in .45 seconds, and it was shot from Weaver. The only sensible reason for shooting without the sights is under conditions where the adversary is so close that he may deflect your pistol with a hand block, and here we are talking about a range of 2 or 3 feet - not yards.

Col. Rex is a good old boy, and I enjoy reading him, but this is one topic on which we definitely disagree." -Col. Jeff Cooper

That having been said......I suspect that the truth is not entirely polar......the Point Shooting systems have much to offer, especially in training extreme close quarters shooting.
 
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AzQkr

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While I respect anyone who trains hard to learn the art of the pistol......i'm far from convinced that Point Shooting is superior to the Modern Technique.

Threat focused skills aren't superior or inferior to the modern technique [ sighted fire ]. Neither should be trained exclusively over the other. They compliment each other, based on the "time/distance" equation you find yourself in relative a SD situation.

All my carry guns with the exception of two [ used for demonstration purposes in the classes ] have night sights and one has the XS big dot front sight.

When the time is short [ you're behind the curve for some reason ], and the distance is within the scope of various threat focused skills, you are going to be faster to hits on threat using them than any sights verification system.

Fight to the sights, don't die trying to get to them.

Brownie
 

Deaf Smith

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Threat focused skills aren't superior or inferior to the modern technique [ sighted fire ].

I'll agree with that much.

The thing is, sighed fire takes no longer to use than point shooting (unless you don't understand the idea of flash sight picture.) And retention shooting can do well to at least 2 yards if not more. And that gives the overlap needed. Sighed fire can be used from almost zero range on out, and retention can go from zero to the max distance the shooter can get good hits fast from the belt level.

Now brownie has said he had 8 hrs or so of MT instruction, yet he never had heard of Gunsights field manual (a paperback issued at gunsight orange, Jeff Coopers writings, not gunsight grey, after he left) nor the abiltiy to shoot in darkness where one cannot see the sights.

That manual had far more than the five main principles of the MT. Thing is you can get the principles off the internet, but you sure can't get the manual!

And the ability to use a form of sighted fire and retention to cover the whole spectrium, and thus pair down what all is needed to master, is why I feel it's the core.

If later you want to add such as point shooting, or long range shooting, sure, the skys the limit. But it's not the core.

Deaf
 

AzQkr

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The thing is, sighed fire takes no longer to use than point shooting (unless you don't understand the idea of flash sight picture.)

Well, again we see you arguing with the statements from some of the best trained MT shooters in the country Deaf, but thats exactly what I've come to expect from you based on your lack of actually knowledge on this subject based on your lack of training in this course materials.

22 years of constant MT training at the highest levels our govt can and does provide has been dismissed after just two days of threat focused skills in the ITFTS's course.

His quote again which confirms over and over by MT shooters who've been through numerous national MT instructors courses:

"I made the decision to take Brownie's "Quick Kill/ Threat Focused Response" class this past weekend in Flagstaff. I've been shooting for over 25 years in both the military and the civillian world. I've been to a number of the high end shooting schools and am always striving to maintain and develop tactics and mindset."

"Having said that, I can say this was this was the finest real world training I've had"

"The tactics and skills Brownie teachs and has developed are quite simply the fastest way to kill an opponent.That's the stuff I want. I was hitting targets out to 100 yards using no sights. On the second day my front sight boke off, no biggie, I wasn't using it and didn't need it anyway.

I was a confident shooter prior to taking this class but after completing it I feel as if the skills and tactics taught by Brownie will be the ones to save my life in the event of a real world gunfight. They are the ones I will spend my precious training time on. No more front sight trigger press for me."
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Just read the above bolded aqain. I'm quite sure one of the most professionally trained MT shooters this country produces has more actual experience using the MT skills over a lifetime of professional service in hot spots all over the world than yourself. His opinions mean more to me than yourself [ only becuase I know you haven't been in 22 years of hot spots actually shooting at and being shot at like he was ].

Here's a quote from a Sgt. named Ayman Taha who served in the 5th SF group in Iraq, kicking doors at 4am taking terrs down after two days one on one with me here in Az just before he deployed.

"The techniques Brownie and 7677 are using are making all the difference for me over here. Believe me, when you are clearing rooms for real, you definitely want those techniques in your toolbox. Stay sharp,

ataha"
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I find it interesting you dismiss them as unnecessary skills and all you need is front sight press and a retention position to solve every problem most efficiently, yet real world shooter who have seen the elephant readily state the skills I train others in are the ones they will use [ and did use in battle ] over their extensive MT training.

I'll let the readers decide who has a more clear picture of what works better in the real world Deaf. Your statement that "The thing is, sighed fire takes no longer to use than point shooting (unless you don't understand the idea of flash sight picture.) clearly shows your lack of real world knowledge where threat focused skills are concerned.

If MT skills didn't take any longer to use, you wouldn't be reading reviews from real world soldiers and people who've had dozens of professional MT courses make the statements they do based on actual experience, not supposition.

This summer I've been training a 12 man USAF Para-Rescue [ PJ's ] unit here in Tucson. They've now reverted to the threat focused skills from my course as well and it's what they'll be using when they jump into a combat zone under fire and rescue/retrieve downed pilots while their lives are at stake.

Seems they've had all the MT training one can get in their profession as well, but they move to these skills when it's their lives at stake. They brought me in to help them survive real world encounters with skills that they feel are superior to their extensive MT training.

Of course I could be wrong, but I tend to think their professional MT training has been far more extensive than your own, and they have the benefit of actually having taken the threat focused training to know what they are talking about when they make the above statements, unlike yourself.

One last quote from a student who has been to the Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, and Front Sight MT schools on numerous occasions [ in other words, he's well versed in MT skills ]:

"So if you use your sight(s) instinctively via training and you use the right technique, it isn’t slow. But the up close stuff Brownie teaches is simply faster and I can prove it."

Thanks Brownie – great training.
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Brownie
 

Deaf Smith

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22 years of government MT training? Are you saying the U.S. military uses Coopers MT system? The whole system, right? Is that it brownie? Do you understand what MT is? You know large bore handgun, SA pistol and all that?

I suspect you kind of blur all sighted forms of firing as being 'MT' and this clouds your judgment. And that is what bothers me. You don't really know what these people are trained in. It's all 'MT' to you.

Deaf
 

AzQkr

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The US Army SF 5th Group trained at Gunsite, Blackwater and several other MT schools [ many of these training centers are by THEIR OWN definition MT schools ]as a unit over the course of 6 months before deploying. Ayman came out here with "Front sight press" skills he was trained in at these same schools. Is that MT enough for you deaf?

Are you saying the U.S. military uses Coopers MT system?

"No more front sight trigger press for me" from the pathfinders AARFront sight press is considered modern technique. Whether that all inclusive of present day MT or not isn't my concern. What is my concern is that these front sight press trained operators are finding they are faster with the combat accuracy in less than two days over their previous training which is heavily weighed in the MT skills sets so that may have a better chance of surviving with a pistol should the need arise and the skills are warranted based on the time/distance equation they finf themselves involved in.

Police depts around the country have been primarily using part or all of the MT platform for their officers pistol skills. Here's an AAR after a few days with me out here in Az. from a firearms trainer for a major PD in California with over 1400 officers in his charge who'd also been to several of the "MT" schools across the country and trains his officers per their SOP's in MT skills:

"I was of course a little apprehensive about how I would fare with the QK technique. Brownie assured me I would do just fine, still being the type A+ Obsessive Compulsive Disorder personality, I was my own worst enemy. I would not settle for anything less than the utmost perfection. I had been a MT shooter all my life"

"Brownie showed me techniques that doubled my speed from draw to shots on target with combat accuracy. He showed me techniques that I had never seen before which, in my humble opinion, were life saving combat techniques which should be taught to every responsible gun toting person on the planet."

"I will say this. Brownie tried and tested various techniques which I had never seen before. These techniques work, and are repeatable. They work every time. I have added these drills into my personal bag of tricks, and will practice them weekly.They will be life savers in a gunfight...This is what it's all about, winning a gunfight and going home to my family, cause at the end of the day, that's what counts."

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And the hits just keep coming--------------------no matter what you think is necessary or unnecessary where self defense skills with a pistol are concerned. Pay particular attention to his comment about "I had been a MT shooter all my life"". If you are willing to argue that they don't know what MT skills are, or that their visits to Gunsite are anything but MT training in some form or another, take it up with them.

Like I mentioned before------I like to let my students speak to the training. They tell me they've been MT students and instructors for years, and they've been to Gunsite which is the grand daddy of MT training. If you can't believe they understand MT skills after having attended Gunsite [ and other ] MT training, I guess we're at an impasse.

Brownie
 
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