TWC & Tsui Ma
- Thread starter TMA17
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wckf92
Master of Arts
Doesn't all wc teach it a la 2nd form(!?!?!?!)
No I don’t think so.
“The students of Yip man who stayed with him longer than 10 years usually got it (Moy Yat, Yip Brothers, Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shong Tin, etc). There was nothing formal about it until Moy Yat with Yip Man's advice added tsui ma as a formal exercise in chi sau progression at his school in Hong Kong, much like the jong wasn't an official form until all of Yip's students starting teaching and needed to organize the movements that they all learned.
So tsui ma elements are in many of the older Yip lineages but it wasn't formalized until Moy Yat put it in his Hong Kong school.
Tsui Ma is one of the things that really makes the Moy Yat Method of Yip Man Ving Tsun stand apart from the rest.”
“The students of Yip man who stayed with him longer than 10 years usually got it (Moy Yat, Yip Brothers, Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shong Tin, etc). There was nothing formal about it until Moy Yat with Yip Man's advice added tsui ma as a formal exercise in chi sau progression at his school in Hong Kong, much like the jong wasn't an official form until all of Yip's students starting teaching and needed to organize the movements that they all learned.
So tsui ma elements are in many of the older Yip lineages but it wasn't formalized until Moy Yat put it in his Hong Kong school.
Tsui Ma is one of the things that really makes the Moy Yat Method of Yip Man Ving Tsun stand apart from the rest.”
A "white eyebrow" student will spend his first 6 months to train
- step in the front leg, the back leg then follow.
- step back the back leg, the front leg then follow.
- step in the front leg, the back leg then follow.
- step back the back leg, the front leg then follow.
Without switching sides, there are 3 different forward steps. It covers 3 different range of distance.
1. 1/2 step - step in the front leg, the back leg then follow.
2. 1 step - step in the back leg to touch the back of the front leg, the front leg then step in.
3. 1 and 1/2 step - step in the front leg, the back leg then step in and touch the back of the front leg, the front leg then step in again.
IMO, the "1 step" footwork is the safest. For the other 2, you have to step in your leading leg first. The distance between you and your opponent has reduced. Your opponent can't attack you before, Now he can attack you. When you use "1 step", you step in your back leg first. Since the distance between you and your opponent still remain the same. Your opponent can't attack you before, he still can't attack you when you step in your back leg. You can then step in your front leg when you feel safe. "1 step" can give you that option. The other 2 cannot.
1. 1/2 step - step in the front leg, the back leg then follow.
2. 1 step - step in the back leg to touch the back of the front leg, the front leg then step in.
3. 1 and 1/2 step - step in the front leg, the back leg then step in and touch the back of the front leg, the front leg then step in again.
IMO, the "1 step" footwork is the safest. For the other 2, you have to step in your leading leg first. The distance between you and your opponent has reduced. Your opponent can't attack you before, Now he can attack you. When you use "1 step", you step in your back leg first. Since the distance between you and your opponent still remain the same. Your opponent can't attack you before, he still can't attack you when you step in your back leg. You can then step in your front leg when you feel safe. "1 step" can give you that option. The other 2 cannot.
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Maybe we need to define "Tsui Ma." Not every lineage uses the exact same terminology. If you mean simply a forward step into the opponent's center, then yes, everyone does that! Realize that what happens in some lineages is that they put a special emphasis on something or develop it just one step further than others. But that doesn't mean others don't have it as well.
So what exactly does "Tsui Ma" mean/represent in the Moy Yat lineage?
So what exactly does "Tsui Ma" mean/represent in the Moy Yat lineage?
wckf92
Master of Arts
So which lineages don't teach it?
I would say that TWC does not break it out as a "thing" and put any emphasis on it over other methods of stepping. TWC tends to step to the flank or take an angle more often than stepping into the center. But TWC does certainly still step into the center at times, just as shown in your first video example! Is that good or bad? Better or worse? Depends on your perspective! MY people may say "TWC does not have Tsui Ma!" and TWC people may say MY lineage does not have a "T step!" Each has the other, it just depends upon how much it is emphasized!
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
I started in Moy Yat lineage and have a good deal of respect for it, but they do not have any exclusive dominion over this stance or step. I don't know enough about William Chueng's pedagogy to say how they teach, but you're looking for exceptions to the rule, not the rule itself. I'm not aware of Wing Chun lineages who don't use this stance. I'm not even sure how they would get around without it.
I think you've picked up some questionable history somewhere, which is unfortunately too common in our community.
I think you've picked up some questionable history somewhere, which is unfortunately too common in our community.
DanT
2nd Black Belt
From my experience in TWC, when you get to the outside gate and pin, you can continue to push through opponent with Tsui Ma. Perhaps KPM can confirm this.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
I don't like to criticize clips of people training, because they are doing a drill and I may not fully understand what it was designed to train. But, I'm concerned about what the person receiving the forward pressure is doing. Maybe the drill was set to help the stepper feel what it's like to (in very rudimentary terms) take an opponent's center with your horse. If that is the case, again, it's not right to criticize a drill for doing what it's designed for, but I'd want to make sure that the students understood what they should be doing in response to someone stepping in on them like that, which isn't happening in this clip.
I don't post videos of our training, but we work hard on these concepts. The drills may be lineage or even sifu specific, but the concepts are not.
I think a more important question to ask is what 'teachers' don't teach it? Maybe every 'Lineage' has it, maybe, but that doesn't mean every teacher in that lineage is teaching it. I had more than 5 years of WC training before I was exposed to it, and by the time someone was kind enough to show me I had already learned the hand forms and the dummy form. Needless to say, all I had up to that point was WC 'choreography'.
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