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isshinryuronin

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On a slightly Japanese point, do you think that as martial artists we could get the general public to start bowing to each other as they do in Japan? Not to such strict etiquette but to replace the handshake and the horrible 'elbow bumps' in these Covid ridden times?

Nice, and very quaint, but I don't think such a thing is possible, at least in the USA. While bowing is a historical custom in many Oriental and European countries, not so much here. It seems to me that bowing is connected to places where a monarchy was prevalent, where stratified social classes required each level to show respect to the one above it, under strict penalties.

This is not true of the US, which being a recent nation, has never had kings or dukes, emperors or shoguns. In theory, it was created as a "classless" society. True, bowing and curtseying was present a century or two ago in more refined social circles, but I think that was just a holdover from our European roots. As such, it was kind of a transplanted custom which found it hard to flourish in our American soil perhaps similar to Lowry's palm tree (see next quote.)



I, too, am a fan of Jethro Tull (a unique musical band) and Dave Lowry, the latter of which is a noted traditional martial artist and author. His metaphor of a palm tree transplanted in Missouri is an excellent expression of MA in the West. Having taken college classes in both "Soils" and "Natural Vegetation," I can appreciate the complexity and uniqueness of the ground in which things grow.
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As MA was introduced into the West (as well as Japan,) it invariably changed to survive in that new ground. Certainly, the ground was not going to change to accommodate the transplanted art and allow it to survive in its original form. Like soil that is a mixture of minerals with varying particle size, bacteria, and organic detritus in varying pH and moisture levels, culture is likewise greatly nuanced and affects how/if things grow.

Koryu (old time Japanese combat arts) may be considered an anachronism, an endangered species that exits only in zoos. IMO, it, and other MA representing an original form (in as much as that's possible) should resist change and adaptation, regardless of its relevance to a particular culture. There are multiple branches of styles existing in many cultures that have evolved into many, many lineages and flavors catering to almost anyone's individual taste. This was inevitable. Some say this is good, others may differ. It is reality.

But does this preclude preserving some traditional arts in their "pristine" state? I'll leave off here as I'm getting off the thread's actual subject. Perhaps if there is interest in this question someone can open a new thread.
 

jobo

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Nice, and very quaint, but I don't think such a thing is possible, at least in the USA. While bowing is a historical custom in many Oriental and European countries, not so much here. It seems to me that bowing is connected to places where a monarchy was prevalent, where stratified social classes required each level to show respect to the one above it, under strict penalties.

This is not true of the US, which being a recent nation, has never had kings or dukes, emperors or shoguns. In theory, it was created as a "classless" society. True, bowing and curtseying was present a century or two ago in more refined social circles, but I think that was just a holdover from our European roots. As such, it was kind of a transplanted custom which found it hard to flourish in our American soil perhaps similar to Lowry's palm tree (see next quote.)




I, too, am a fan of Jethro Tull (a unique musical band) and Dave Lowry, the latter of which is a noted traditional martial artist and author. His metaphor of a palm tree transplanted in Missouri is an excellent expression of MA in the West. Having taken college classes in both "Soils" and "Natural Vegetation," I can appreciate the complexity and uniqueness of the ground in which things grow.
.
As MA was introduced into the West (as well as Japan,) it invariably changed to survive in that new ground. Certainly, the ground was not going to change to accommodate the transplanted art and allow it to survive in its original form. Like soil that is a mixture of minerals with varying particle size, bacteria, and organic detritus in varying pH and moisture levels, culture is likewise greatly nuanced and affects how/if things grow.

Koryu (old time Japanese combat arts) may be considered an anachronism, an endangered species that exits only in zoos. IMO, it, and other MA representing an original form (in as much as that's possible) should resist change and adaptation, regardless of its relevance to a particular culture. There are multiple branches of styles existing in many cultures that have evolved into many, many lineages and flavors catering to almost anyone's individual taste. This was inevitable. Some say this is good, others may differ. It is reality.

But does this preclude preserving some traditional arts in their "pristine" state? I'll leave off here as I'm getting off the thread's actual subject. Perhaps if there is interest in this question someone can open a new thread.
the USA is not a recent nation, at nearly 250 years its one of the oldest nation states on earth, admittedly some of those that are older, are,a lot older, but theres not that many, most of the 200 countries in the world are newer, mostly a lot lot newer

the UK is only 70 years older, most european countries are younger, as is all of Africa, apart from Egypt, south america and most of Asia
 
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isshinryuronin

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the USA is not a recent nation, at nearly 250 years its one of the oldest nation states on earth, admittedly some of those that are older, are,a lot older, but theres not that many, most of the 200 countries in the world are newer, mostly a lot lot newer

the UK is only 70 years older, most european countries are younger, as is all of Africa, apart from Egypt, south america and most of Asia

IMO, You are being overly technical and avoiding the point. Your post does nothing to add to the thread's topic, instead concentrating what is effectively a minor unrelated point. There was so much more worthy of comment.

Removing the words you take offense with, "which being a recent nation," does not affect, shade or change anything in my post. To me, it seems your post is for the sole purpose of being contrary. Yet, I will address it as a valid criticism to put your mind at ease and allow you to focus on the major points in the full post. ;)

Counting what are basically politically reorganized regions as "new" countries doesn't change the fact that the parts of the UK, notably England, France, Sweden Spain, Italy and most of the rest of Europe are composed of cultural nations with a long 1000 year ingrained history of monarchy. True for China and Japan as well, their legal-political status not affecting their historical cultural and social landscape that come into play in this discussion. As the discussion centered on Japanese and Western culture, third world countries are not in the mix, so my statement stands.

Historically and culturally, the USA's citizens were never ruled by a king - our land was always subject to a squabbling, messy, though successful republic. Thus, bowing was never a legal imperative. In other words, never a part of our national psyche and so difficult to institute here.
 

jobo

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IMO, You are being overly technical and avoiding the point. Your post does nothing to add to the thread's topic, instead concentrating what is effectively a minor unrelated point. There was so much more worthy of comment.

Removing the words you take offense with, "which being a recent nation," does not affect, shade or change anything in my post. To me, it seems your post is for the sole purpose of being contrary. Yet, I will address it as a valid criticism to put your mind at ease and allow you to focus on the major points in the full post. ;)

Counting what are basically politically reorganized regions as "new" countries doesn't change the fact that the parts of the UK, notably England, France, Sweden Spain, Italy and most of the rest of Europe are composed of cultural nations with a long 1000 year ingrained history of monarchy. True for China and Japan as well, their legal-political status not affecting their historical cultural and social landscape that come into play in this discussion. As the discussion centered on Japanese and Western culture, third world countries are not in the mix, so my statement stands.

Historically and culturally, the USA's citizens were never ruled by a king - our land was always subject to a squabbling, messy, though successful republic. Thus, bowing was never a legal imperative. In other words, never a part of our national psyche and so difficult to institute here.
coz your point that bowing is tied to living in a monarchy is bogus, and your suporting points that america is a " recent" nation is equaly bogus.

you cant make that point and then say that the 180 or so nations that are younger dont count, its a comparative term and any actual comparison makes it incorrect .

the war of independance was fought against the british and britain as a country only came in to being in 1706, thats its constituant part are older, is a nonsence argument, the constituant parts of every country including the usa are all the same age. the creation of the united states was just a political reorganisation just as the creation of the uk was, just as france becoming a republic was. there was a population, there first

secondly, very nearly all of the american citizen came from countries that had a strong hierarchy, so historicaly they had a culture of" royality" and bowing in the uk is as rare as it is in America unless you actualy get to meet the queen, which is the tiniest fraction of the population, then its exspected and not required.

as a nation that is currently ruled has exaxmctly the same lack of bowing culture, you need to look elsewhere for a reason for it being common in asia
 

Tez3

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In Europe and the UK bowing had nothing to do with who the head of the country was and all to do with the plagues and general illness prevalent through the centuries.
Even people in the so called Dark Ages knew that disease was spread by contact with others. Bowing became the way to avoid touching. It always meant not getting too close and being knifed!

Incidently, all the countries that make up the now UK, had their own monarchs, not just England.
 

Lisa lyons

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coz your point that bowing is tied to living in a monarchy is bogus, and your suporting points that america is a " recent" nation is equaly bogus.

you cant make that point and then say that the 180 or so nations that are younger dont count, its a comparative term and any actual comparison makes it incorrect .

the war of independance was fought against the british and britain as a country only came in to being in 1706, thats its constituant part are older, is a nonsence argument, the constituant parts of every country including the usa are all the same age. the creation of the united states was just a political reorganisation just as the creation of the uk was, just as france becoming a republic was. there was a population, there first

secondly, very nearly all of the american citizen came from countries that had a strong hierarchy, so historicaly they had a culture of" royality" and bowing in the uk is as rare as it is in America unless you actualy get to meet the queen, which is the tiniest fraction of the population, then its exspected and not required.

as a nation that is currently ruled has exaxmctly the same lack of bowing culture, you need to look elsewhere for a reason for it being common in asia
when you walk in a room, do people get up and leave? just curious
 

Lisa lyons

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Your post does nothing to add to the thread's topic, instead concentrating what is effectively a minor unrelated point. There was so much more worthy of comment.
this why he has 10,000 posts. can織t think when he trains in his karate. maybe online:)
 

jobo

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this why he has 10,000 posts. can織t think when he trains in his karate. maybe online:)
i kept off your threads at your request, are you going to stalked me round the board now making personal attacks ?

my posting average is circa 10 a day, i dont think that an amount that interferes with my life greatly, though it does pass time on, but hell thats what social media is for and im very sociable.

i havent trained karate for nearly 12 months now, coz no classes!
 

Gerry Seymour

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This is not true of the US, which being a recent nation
You could probably avoid most of the weird technical arguments about age if you said "being a relatively young culture". The US does have a somewhat distinct cultural difference from Western Europe, though that's mostly where it derives from. I think there's greater cultural tie to the past in England (indeed, across the UK) and France, for instance.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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You could probably avoid most of the weird technical arguments about age if you said "being a relatively young culture". The US does have a somewhat distinct cultural difference from Western Europe, though that's mostly where it derives from. I think there's greater cultural tie to the past in England (indeed, across the UK) and France, for instance.
Nah, then you just end up in the argument "what is a US culture?" Since the northeast, southeast, plains, rocky mountains, alaska, hawaii, pnc, etc. all have their own major cultural differences.
 

Tez3

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i kept off your threads at your request, are you going to stalked me round the board now making personal attacks ?

my posting average is circa 10 a day, i dont think that an amount that interferes with my life greatly, though it does pass time on, but hell thats what social media is for and im very sociable.

i havent trained karate for nearly 12 months now, coz no classes!

For some reason she's annotating my posts as 'funny' which marks her out rather than narks me
 

Tez3

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I'll point out that we are in a national lock down at the moment, schools, gyms, hairdressers, barbers, swimming pools etc etc all shut so social media is somewhere most of us can go to chat with people. We can't see our relatives and friends at the moment, it's hard for many people. What we don't need is people especially newbies coming on here thinking it's Bullshido, it's not. I'm sure stalking is allowed there.
 

Lisa lyons

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poor jobo got upset & reported me. I thought he was a karate man . oh well never mind :p
 

jobo

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You could probably avoid most of the weird technical arguments about age if you said "being a relatively young culture". The US does have a somewhat distinct cultural difference from Western Europe, though that's mostly where it derives from. I think there's greater cultural tie to the past in England (indeed, across the UK) and France, for instance.
thats an interesting statement,

which would really need three questions answering, if it were to hold true

1) when did american culture actually diverge from european culture such that it became into being as a seperate enterty ?

clearly europeans were ariving in their millions well into the 20th century, if say it diverged in the 1800s, it reverted back towards being european when all these europeans arived.

3) does america actualy have a common culture ? its just as different from east coast to west and from north to soulth as europe is, in fact more diferances id say

third how have you established that european culture has significant ties with the 1700, such that you can say its ancient or older than american culture ?
.the culture in this country is unrecognisable from even 50 years ago, any ties to three hundred yeas ago and beyond are difficult to identify, sure we have some old buildings, but thats about it

most of the things that are considered quintessentially british, are a product of the late victorian/ edwardian periods and there quite late and mostly 20th century
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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I think the bigger question is what culture is, but this might also be better off being a separate thread, rather than one that's focused on training logs.
 

Tez3

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I think the bigger question is what culture is, but this might also be better off being a separate thread, rather than one that's focused on training logs.

I think the thread is long gone

What confuses me is American 'Queen Anne Victorian' houses.
 
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