LawDog
Master Black Belt
The most important time to fight is when you know that you are going to lose. (1968)
To Lose is to win
- Thread starter LawDog
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Reminds me of an Electric Hellfire Club song, "Then we go back to the year Sixty-Eight. Thats when the summer of love became the summer of hate..."
Sean
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Both Taiji and Wing Chun have a saying.
Invest in loss.
Invest in loss.
jdinca
Master Black Belt
We have a saying in our school. "You win when you lose, if you learn."
grydth
Senior Master
I'd be genuinely interested in hearing you expand on this.
I believe you mean something far different than Cheng Man Ching's concept of "investing in loss".
Unless protecting something of priceless value, such as my childrens' lives, if I know I am going to lose.....is not running away the best choice?
"Win the battle, lose the war, choice of evils, lies before"
Losing to win, and winning to lose. Interesting concepts, and I understand.
We all go through times in our life where we see ourselves defeated, lost, sometimes worse. Sometimes, those moments lead us to our greatest moments.
Losing to win, and winning to lose. Interesting concepts, and I understand.
We all go through times in our life where we see ourselves defeated, lost, sometimes worse. Sometimes, those moments lead us to our greatest moments.
grydth
Senior Master
It is distressingly probable that all of you see something here that I am missing.
Certain defeat to me is a sign to run away to fight another day.
Recall from history, some of those "losses" you all refer to may be terminal ones - the dead never profit from the lessons of the past. Often the fleet footed living do.
Certain defeat to me is a sign to run away to fight another day.
Recall from history, some of those "losses" you all refer to may be terminal ones - the dead never profit from the lessons of the past. Often the fleet footed living do.
grydth
Senior Master
So far, that is sound reasoning...... and protection of defenseless others against a ghoulish assailant could justify a fight one is not likely to win.
But, not trying to be funny here , I'd say in general: Walk away from a certain win, run away from a certain defeat!
You win the fight, your opponent lies dead or dying at your feet. Soon, you will be arrested for his death, your family put through hardship and pain. You may also be imprisoned or killed as a result.
The battle was yours. The war however, was lost.
You are beaten in a fight, giving up your personal possessions and taking the honor hit and heading home bruised and spit covered. You dedicate yourself to self improvement and along the way gain confidence and fitness.
You lost the fight, but won the war, ending as a better person than your attacker.
The battle was yours. The war however, was lost.
You are beaten in a fight, giving up your personal possessions and taking the honor hit and heading home bruised and spit covered. You dedicate yourself to self improvement and along the way gain confidence and fitness.
You lost the fight, but won the war, ending as a better person than your attacker.
On the flip side of that, the karate days had something similar. but it was "If you believe you will lose, you have already lost."
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"The coward dies a thousand times, the brave man dies but once."
"But the SMART man doesn't die at all".
"But the SMART man doesn't die at all".
The smart man is the coward, he just doesn't know it 
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If he doesn't know it he isn't smart, now is he
grydth
Senior Master
Bob, the paragraphs above do not match in their consequences.
The first presupposes I kill the attacker if I win; in the second you presume the aasailant does NOt kill me, that I am able to return home.
Should I not walk away even in a scenario where I am very unlikely to have to kill or even seriously injure an attacker?
What worries me, especially in that troubling scenario where I am likely to lose the encounter, is that he kills me.......
grydth
Senior Master
I respectfully disagree.
In most street encounters there is no personal honor at stake. I am a citizen set upon by a thug - hardly the picture of 2 knights dueling. What code of honor requires me to fight this trash, especially given the liklihood of losing?
There is no fair lady, no grail awaiting the victor..... and no expulsion from Camelot for the loser. The only question is whether I survive to return to my family.
The Chinese often emulated animals..... fine, I pick the roadrunner.
Even in some military situations, running can be the best course. A good officer doesn't throw his life or his soldiers' lives away. Sometimes living to return another day - better equipped, better armed, better odds - can be the wiser course... not a cowardly one.
The smart man is the coward, he just doesn't know it
"A gentleman was supposed to prefer being a dead lion to being a live jackal. Me, I've always preferred to be a live lion, so that puts me outside the rules."
--Lazurus Long, Time Enough For Love, pg 61 - Robert Heinlein
For myself - I'd rather be a live lion too, and rules be damned if it comes to my life (or the life of someone I value) or the life of an attacker.
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Kacey gets it
