Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
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I hope thats the case.
Time to buy sai, need advice...
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
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chinto
Senior Master
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6 stiches in the head is not full force strike from a staff... crushed skull is. but yes get good sai. I have a friend who has a pair of the shuriedo sai, I love them and have been saving for a pair for some time!!! very high quality. there are some folks who make them too from scratch. if so make sure they understand the weapon and are competent knife makers and temper them well!
MikeBielat
Orange Belt
My Worblington Steele sais just came in. They are a beauty!
I took out my old pair of $50 sais from AWMA or wherever. The chrome is all rusty and I can't believe how off balance and heavy they are.
Ill post pics or whatever ASAP.
I took out my old pair of $50 sais from AWMA or wherever. The chrome is all rusty and I can't believe how off balance and heavy they are.
Ill post pics or whatever ASAP.
MikeBielat
Orange Belt
Here they are!
View attachment $photo 2.jpgView attachment $photo 3.jpgView attachment $photo 4.jpgView attachment $photo 5.jpgLet me know what you think...
harlan
2nd Black Belt
Pretty. What do the kanji say?
They are attractive, and I like the width of the tines. Wouldn't want to deal with rust in the kanji, and I'd like a wider butt and handle for grip. And wider at the base, where tines connected, for when the bo is powering down on you.
Guess I'm too used to Shuriedo at this point. LOL!
They are attractive, and I like the width of the tines. Wouldn't want to deal with rust in the kanji, and I'd like a wider butt and handle for grip. And wider at the base, where tines connected, for when the bo is powering down on you.
Guess I'm too used to Shuriedo at this point. LOL!
MikeBielat
Orange Belt
Those are awesome. I have never seen those before. Ill have to look them up and get some info on them and get a little history.
Collier1313
White Belt
I know this thread has been dead for a while but I wanted to know if anyone knew anything about this set of sai from The Martial Arts Store. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000GW77SK/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I have Amazon gift cards I've earned via Bing Rewards and thought about ordering a set to learn with and then when/if I get proficient with them ordering a really good set.
harlan
2nd Black Belt
Nothing wrong with that idea! 
As long as it's for kata/practice, and not bunkai, a cheap pair of sai are great to have around. One should handle different ones to discover what one likes/dislikes before a pricey investment anyway.
As long as it's for kata/practice, and not bunkai, a cheap pair of sai are great to have around. One should handle different ones to discover what one likes/dislikes before a pricey investment anyway.
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Those are your generic sai that are mass-produced, and distributed by the usual folks (AWMA, Century, etc).
They're rather heavy, and the balance isn't ideal, but at least you can still use them with good mechanics. There are some cheap sai (typically the ones with the red jewels in them, or the skull and crossbones on them) that are all but impossible to use with proper mechanics...
They're OK for kata use, but your strikes are going to be somewhat slower with them than they would with a well-balanced pair.
If you want an inexpensive pair that you can learn on, I strongly recommend getting one that's lighter and better balanced, so that you don't have to alter your mechanics to compensate for the weight and the less than ideal balance.
Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Force-Dem...=1378472680&sr=1-1&keywords=sai+demonstration
Yes, they're more expensive, but at least you'll be developing mechanics that aren't altered to compensate for poor balance.
Think of it in the same way that firearms instructors use a .22 LR pistol to start new shooters. This way, they learn proper trigger mechanics without having to think about dealing with recoil. Once they have a good set of trigger mechanics, then you teach them how to shoot the more powerful calibers. Otherwise, trying to start someone on a .44 magnum will most likely end up with their developing flinching habits.
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harlan
2nd Black Belt
They do look better...in that the grip has a nicer wrap and there are size options for the petite person.
But how do you know the difference in weight and balance?
But how do you know the difference in weight and balance?
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Just by personal experience. Back when our dojo started training in Yamanni Ryu saijutsu, there were a lot of techniques that were difficult for me to do correctly because I was trying to use my unbalanced, unwieldy pair (think a step below those generic ones listed earlier). It was even more difficult for some of our students, until we switched over to the lighter, better balanced sai.
I did seriously consider grabbing a pair of the lighter sai for myself, but decided that since this was going to be a lifetime endeavor, and not just a passing fad, that I'd make one bigger purchase for myself.
I had Phil Worbington craft me a pair of sai ideally fitted for my own dimensions. Even though those sai were only slightly less weighty than the ones listed earlier, they swung with much greater ease, and that's when I could start building up a lot more speed and power in the strikes, with less effort.
Regarding the lighter pair that I listed above, they're about 30% lighter than the "standard" pair, and have a balance point that is more favorable to letting you make a balanced flipping motion, without tilting your hand, cocking your wrist or elbow, etc.
Not only will you be using better mechanics, but you'll also be saving a lot of soreness in your joints.
Once you get a nicer pair, from a maker such as Worbington, Kensho, Shureido, etc., the weight of the sai won't mean nearly as much, since the fine balance from any of the premium ones will make them relatively easy to swing correctly.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Here's a question: It's my understanding that the sai come from a farming implement. Is that true? If so, what is the implement, what is it used for, and how different is the farming version compared to the modern kobudo version?
Looking back into the past, how well balanced do you suspect the sai of Okinawa 400 years ago were? If it was truly a farming implement, and was picked up for use as an improvised weapon, would any of this customizing and balancing etc. have ever come into the picture at all?
If the Garden Weasel was used today as an improvised weapon, do you suppose that 400 years from now, if the tradition were still passed along, we would see some specially modified Garden Weasels, designed to be perfect for combat use? That wouldn't necessarily reflect the reality in which the Garden Weasel first came to be used as a weapon. Would they still be effective in the garden, or would those modifications alter it enough that it becomes a specialized weapon that no longer functions as a garden tool?
Is there a parallel with today's sai, vs. the sai of 400 years ago?
Looking back into the past, how well balanced do you suspect the sai of Okinawa 400 years ago were? If it was truly a farming implement, and was picked up for use as an improvised weapon, would any of this customizing and balancing etc. have ever come into the picture at all?
If the Garden Weasel was used today as an improvised weapon, do you suppose that 400 years from now, if the tradition were still passed along, we would see some specially modified Garden Weasels, designed to be perfect for combat use? That wouldn't necessarily reflect the reality in which the Garden Weasel first came to be used as a weapon. Would they still be effective in the garden, or would those modifications alter it enough that it becomes a specialized weapon that no longer functions as a garden tool?
Is there a parallel with today's sai, vs. the sai of 400 years ago?
Collier1313
White Belt
Thank you both I didn't expect such a quick reply. I had seen the pair you posted Grenadier but was hesitant because of the lack of reviews.
That's a really good analogy with using a .22 to learn mechanics, that's how my uncle taught me how to shoot when I was a kid.
That's a really good analogy with using a .22 to learn mechanics, that's how my uncle taught me how to shoot when I was a kid.
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These statements are my opinion, and mine only.
I doubt that the sai were ever used as actual farming implements in Okinawa.
When you think about it, what task could they really be used for effectively, where another, more appropriate tool, were available? There were already agricultural flails used for threshing grain, and did a far more efficient job than someone could do with a sai. Poking holes in the ground for aeration? Possibly, but for someone trying to aerate a larger surface area of land, doing so with a short metal tool would be far more taxing than using a simple somewhat pointed metal rod, or even a wooden stick with an iron head (similar to a spear).
What I can say for certain, though, is that weapons similar to the sai were already in use long before the Okinawan area got to it. It would only seem logical that it was a weapon, not a farming tool. The design itself hasn't really changed much at all throughout the centuries.
Since they were designed as weapons from the start, I'm sure that because you had weapon makers of varying skills, that some were better balanced than others, and some were simply horribly made, much like how a blacksmith in the Middle Ages could be capable of making a finely balanced sword that everyone wanted, or one that was so off-balance, that nobody would buy his wares.
Thus, I believe that there's really no concrete correlation between a sai and a farming tool. Again, this is my opinion only, and I'm quite sure that there will be folks who strongly disagree with me.
The way I see it, there are other weapons in kobudo that aren't going to really match up with farming tools very well at all. For example, when you look at those who practice bojutsu, those who are well-knowledged typically want a bo of a given length (usually around 6 feet, give or take), and they want it to be as close to a balanced cylindrical object as possible.
Bo's used in kobudo aren't going to share much similarity to, say, a random 6 foot long stick that someone happened to tear off a tree, or pick up off the ground.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
consistent with my personal thoughts and opinions as well, tho I'm not in a position to know for certain. thanks.
punisher73
Senior Master
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From everything I have read, most kobudo tools are farm implements except the sai. The sai as a weapon was documented by being used by the Okinawan police in the 1660's and was also a weapon in China, Japan, and Indonesia.
It doesn't make sense that all of the surrounding countries used it as a weapon and the okinawans used it to farm with.
It doesn't make sense that all of the surrounding countries used it as a weapon and the okinawans used it to farm with.
