Time to buy sai, need advice...

[Bill Mattocks]

After two and a half years of empty hand training, the time has come for me to purchase my own set of sai for kubodo training. I need a set of stainless steel sai, the typical 'real' length and weight, no plastic or light-weight aluminum, no painted or fancy movie-prop sai, just the basic Okinawan-style weapons. Don't want to spend more than I have to, but I would like to get something decent.

By the way, I did ask in my dojo - the general opinion is 'Yes, you should go find some.' No advice on where or what.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

 

[harlan]

I've been happy with Shureido.

http://www.shureidousa.com/kobudo/sai.html

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've been happy with Shureido.

http://www.shureidousa.com/kobudo/sai.html

I have read good things about them. Which do you recommend, and do you happen to know prices? I looked at that website and don't see any prices.

 

[harlan]

You have to call. Prices always seem to be going up, and it's best to order from them through a school that regularly orders (as they give a discount).

My sai (the cheapest at natural, 16 in) at full price w/shipping was about $130. I'm okay with that, as they will last a lifetime and the delivery was prompt.

 

[dancingalone]

I also second the Shureido recommendation. It's actually hard to find mass produced sai outside of Shureido that don't have quality control issues. Most of the cheaper ones have the wrong balance points and/or their manufacturing specs varied from unit to unit.

If you really feel like spending around $800 for a pair, I can put you into contact with a guy that will make them custom for you to your specifications. One of my sempai is built like a tree with large hands and long arms, and he found it necessary to get custom ones.

 

[lklawson]

Do you any friends local to you who are amateur smiths? You might be able to get him to give you a deal and get custom work to boot.

If none of your buds fits the bill, I have a friend in the Detroit area: Josh Little. Teaches with the local Ars Gladii and does some amateur smithing.

Another alternative is if you've got a friend who can weld. Supply him with some appropriate steel bar (rebar from abandoned work sites won't work ). You'll have to do the "finish work" yourself probably, but that's really not too hard, just time consuming. Files, sanding, and polishing, then wrapping the hilt.

Any of these options should get you out the door well below $800.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Grenadier]

In general, you get what you pay for.

My personal recommendation is to go with Phil Worbington, who custom makes each pair of sai to fit your hand / arm combination.

http://www.worbingtonsteele.com/

He's an expert metal worker, in addition to being a highly experienced Karate-ka, so he knows what he's doing.

I have two pair of the Worbington sai, one's a heavier, 7/16" thick shaft pair for strength training, and the other is a 6/16" thick shaft pair for more speed. Both are exceptionally well balanced, and very comfortable for me to use, since they were made for my measurements.

Last I saw, his price was about $225 for a pair, but it's worth it, and a lot less expensive than the Agena Energy sai.

You can also get any color wrapping on the handles, which are a very strong, tightly woven cotton thread that is bonded to the handle. They don't come off, and they're much nicer to use than the leather grips that the generics use.

He'll also put any finish that you want on there that he offers, no extra charge. You can get the brightly polished finish, the gold finish, or my favorite, the antique finish.




If you're more on a budget, then Shureido's "Natural" sai, that are made of blackened carbon steel, are a great choice, since they're also very well-balanced, and come in at about $175 a pair from Shureido USA (linked above). You have to keep them oiled, though.

They'll ask you if you want the standard "heavy" pair, or the lighter pair, much how I have my two pair of sai mentioned above. I usually tell students to go with the lighter pair.

If you want Shureido's stainless steel ones, you're looking at around $200, in which case, I'd simply recommend you go with Worbington's sai.

If you have your own dojo, then ask them for a wholesale account. That's where the sai should drop a good bit.


Agena Energy sai are also very nice, but now you're looking at $400 / pair.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Agena Energy sai are also very nice, but now you're looking at $400 / pair.

They will very shortly be unavailable as well. Owner is going into retirement from making for general public. I posted a link about it recently.

 

[Grenadier]

They will very shortly be unavailable as well. Owner is going into retirement from making for general public. I posted a link about it recently.

Sad to hear this... I hope that he has passed his craftsmanship skills to a worth person.

On another note, I forgot to mention Kensho International:

http://www.kenshoint.com/home.html

They also make excellent, well-balanced sai. Prices should be similar to the Worbington, Shureido, etc. He'll also cut you a deal if you're a school owner.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sad to hear this... I hope that he has passed his craftsmanship skills to a worth person.

No mention was made of that:

http://www.weaponsconnection.com/weaponsgallery.html

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT!​

“The time to strike is when the opportunity presents itself.”
Time is running out!
From Jan.1 to May 2, The Weapons Connection’s popular line of handcrafted weaponry​

will still be available to all interested.
However, on May 2, 2011, I am going into semi retirement.
My handcrafted weaponry will only be available to those in the
“Ryukyute Weapons Preservation Society”.
I am giving everyone an opportunity to get the finest handcrafted weaponry until May 2.

On another note, I forgot to mention Kensho International:

http://www.kenshoint.com/home.html

They also make excellent, well-balanced sai. Prices should be similar to the Worbington, Shureido, etc. He'll also cut you a deal if you're a school owner.

Looks very interesting, thank you. I am not a school owner, just a humble student.

 

[jks9199]

Bill -- maybe there are a couple of students ready or close to being ready, and you can contact them for a group order?

 

[Grenadier]

Just checking to see if you pulled the trigger on the purchase yet?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill -- maybe there are a couple of students ready or close to being ready, and you can contact them for a group order?

Not that I'm aware of. Our is a small dojo and honestly, although I think highly of all the recommendations I've seen here, I doubt this is the type of expenditure most of them would consider making. That's just my opinion, I can't speak for them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Just checking to see if you pulled the trigger on the purchase yet?

I have not. I found little between the $30 sai sold at typical online ninja malls and the $300+ custom-made sai; I was actually hoping for something in the sub-$100 range that was in between the two extremes. Seems there's not much of a middle road there.

I did try to purchase some of the less-expensive of the higher-end sai I had seen here, but they don't have them in my size. My arm measures 18 inches from the tip of my index finger to the point of my elbow, which I believe equates to a 19" sai. They had only 17" and 21", so I passed.

So I'm still looking.

As to the suggestions to hire a machine shop, make them myself, or call a friend with has a welder - I think we live in different neighborhoods. I know like six guys in Michigan, and none of them weld. I'm an IT guy, folks. Don't really hang out in machine shops, as fascinating as that sounds!

 

[lklawson]

As to the suggestions to hire a machine shop, make them myself, or call a friend with has a welder - I think we live in different neighborhoods. I know like six guys in Michigan, and none of them weld. I'm an IT guy, folks. Don't really hang out in machine shops, as fascinating as that sounds!

I'm an IT professional too. College Degree in it. Arm-full of Industry Certifications. yada yada and a partridge in a pear tree.

But you can make connections. I used to have connections (all "stale" now) to professional machinists because I was a LAN Administrator for a custom design and machine shop in the plastics industry. I've also made numerous "craftsman" connections through my involvement in martial arts and shooting sports (lots of do-it-yourselfers, home forgers, home armourers and home armorers - the aforementioned Josh Little is an example). I have one connection to a licensed Pipe-Fitter (welders Par Excellence) because we attend Church together (I've worked on his home PC for free once or twice). For that matter, I also have a friend from Church who's a talented wood-worker and professional indoor construction contractor; he's repaired an heirloom coffee table and made some dagger wasters for me.

The connections are all around you. I bet better than even money that someone you work with is a welder as a hobby or has a relative or close friend who is.

Make the connections. To facilitate that, BE a connection. You have skills that your friends and associates would probably like to tap from time to time. Besides the hackneyed "I can work on your PC" stuff, you can also do other things. Maybe teaching a free "Women's Self Defense" seminar for your Church/Synagogue/Lions Club/whatever can let your associates tap your Martial Arts skills. You may have other skills which you can offer. As an example, I republish antique manuals through Lulu. I have had no fewer than 4 people solicit my advice about their own republishing projects and, in two cases, solicit for joint projects. We are mutually advantageous connections for each other and it has helped our friendship.

Don't be afraid to ask, to solicit advice and skills. When I was looking at offering my book to traditional Publishers, I asked advice from 3 different published authors; all of whom I've met through Martial Arts.

I guess this is a rather long-winded way of saying, "Don't give up, man." Talk to Josh. I have no idea whether or not he'd be interested in your Sai project or what he might ask in return. But he's in the Detroit area so he's at least "local to your state." And if he doesn't want to/can't work on it, he might offer other suggestions.

I hope this doesn't come across as preachy. I really want to encourage you. I honestly believe you have more options than you realize. IT is a wonderful jumping off point because it gives you lots potential people connections.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Bruno@MT]

Agree with klawson.

Once you start asking around among people you know, you're bound to find someone whose friend / son / father in law /... is a metal worker or an amateur smith. You don't have to know someone that well before asking them if they perhaps know someone who might help you with a metal working project. Anyone you talked with a couple of times would do (shopkeepers etc)

However, assuming that this does not turn up anything, you can always do a quick google search for smiths or welders or metal workshops in your neighborhood and contact one of them. there's bound to be a couple around. My experience is that most amateur people will be glad to be of help with an interesting sounding project.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I hope this doesn't come across as preachy. I really want to encourage you. I honestly believe you have more options than you realize. IT is a wonderful jumping off point because it gives you lots potential people connections.

Yeah, but then they want me to fix their PC.

 

[harlan]

I don't want to come across as insensitive, but it is, after all, just a tool.

I used my teacher's sai for years before I could afford my own. Tokkaido, Shureido, and even a pair of cheapies from a friend. Different lengths, weights, balance, shape...and then bought my own and had to adjust to them as well. I'd go with the overlong Shureido, cheapest pair, to simply facilitate training.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't want to come across as insensitive, but it is, after all, just a tool.

I used my teacher's sai for years before I could afford my own. Tokkaido, Shureido, and even a pair of cheapies from a friend. Different lengths, weights, balance, shape...and then bought my own and had to adjust to them as well. I'd go with the overlong Shureido, cheapest pair, to simply facilitate training.

No problem, I appreciate the advice! I've been using the sai in the dojo, but there aren't enough for all the students, and Sensei mentioned that when students get to a certain point in their training, it's time to consider buying their own (hint hint, right?). We are not a big dojo, we don't have an order desk or anything like that. I could ask one of the senseis there who sometimes puts an order together at Century, but that's pretty much sure to take months and months. There are no martial arts supply stores in town that I'm aware of.

So I'm pretty much limited, I guess, to either settling for the cheapies you can buy in the online ninja malls or going with a much more expensive set; doesn't seem to be much in the middle. As much as I appreciate advice to get out there and network myself up a guy who can weld and has a machine shop, I doubt that's going to happen anytime soon. I'm not a social guy except online and in my small dojo. I don't socialize, really. So that's just not going to happen.

I think you're probably right; I will probably just have to order something cheap and use that for awhile. Eventually I may want to spend the dough to buy a nice set of 'real' sai, and when I do that, I'll be sure to get a nice set that fits me correctly.

 

[lklawson]

Yeah, but then they want me to fix their PC.

Do you have a truck? They might want you to help them move.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk