Thoughts on the nature and boundaries of martial arts - split from Training Log

[dvcochran]

but you imported very nearly everything from another culture,

I doubt that. Aboriginal culture dates back around 75,000 years.
I get where you are going with influences from other cultures and surely they do influence and change the majority of certain cultures but the origin is still there.

 

[dvcochran]

More to the topic, I think if you are in Japan and doing something (anything), by definition you're doing something that is Japanese. Once you import that activity to another place, it is no longer Japanese; though it may be more or less authentic to its Japanese roots. So, regardless of how authentic one's aikido may be, if you're doing it in Houston, Texas, it is not Japanese. It's American.

I have to disagree with that one. Where something is done does not intrinsically identify it's origin. Especially in the global culture we live in today.
For example, if someone make an authentic cuisine in New York that does not make it a New York cuisine; it is still Italian.

 

[dvcochran]

well yes exactly, that because you couldn't think up an original name for it

it was originally called American football even in America and or grid iron football, to differentiate it from both association football and rugby foot ball from which it was derived

the term soccer was used extensively in this county in the 60 and 70s before changing to footy for no reason im aware

But your term 'futbol' (Turkish) translates into 'football'. How is that confusing?

 

[Steve]

Is it possible that the "pure" or "historically accurate" versions of a style may actually be more effective than its modern versions? Going back to the musical analogy, many covered versions (redone by another artist) of a classic hit are not as moving (effective) as the original and perceived by many as being a cheap imitation.

In TMA, many modern versions of a style have actually been degraded over time, having some techniques modified (their original purpose lost) or eliminated and others added, resulting in a less pure and often less effective version. Sort of like messing around with a great recipe.

I think it's fair to say that many believe modern "PC" culture is not as beneficial to society as a whole as, say, the culture of our grandparents, when there was a lower rate of out of wedlock births, lower crime rate, less homelessness, less drug use, greater national pride, and less desire to be on welfare.

Many products today, mechanical, service, and food, are not of the same quality as when I was young, plus being relatively more expensive. Full service gas stations and free air for your tires? House calls by your long time physician? I can tell you its harder to find good produce at the supermarkets than in years past. Overdependence on technology where hackers or energy burst can put our computerized society in dire straits? Personal attention from a human when you call a business? Younger readers here may have little idea of these things.

Sure, there have been many beneficial advancements on all fronts, but certainly not all. My point is simply that just because something is from the past, it is not necessarily less "effective" or preferable than the modern version. In such cases, the historical style can be celebrated and embraced for its positive traits, guilt free.

Possible, but unlikely to be more effective if for no other reason than that being effective isn't the main goal. Purity or historical accuracy is the main goal. So practitioners, aka people, will sacrifice efficacy for accuracy or purity.

Regarding the pc culture and the modern era vs the good old days, I just disagree. There are things we are so much better at than our grandparents.

 

[Steve]

I have to disagree with that one. Where something is done does not intrinsically identify it's origin. Especially in the global culture we live in today.
For example, if someone make an authentic cuisine in New York that does not make it a New York cuisine; it is still Italian.

Italian cuisine as a thing, but not actually Italian. It may be authentic "italian" cuisine but it's still american.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

lower rate of out of wedlock births

This is one of those highly subjective things here. If two people don't want to get married, why does it matter? See, you're already defining things by your own personal standards and phrasing them as if they were objectively better (because, to you, they are better). I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your standards - just that they are your own, and others may have different ones.

So this leads us back to a question we've seen elsewhere: can there be an objective "better" when the components included have to start with a subjective assertion of someone's preferences?

 

[jobo]

Italian cuisine as a thing, but not actually Italian. It may be authentic "italian" cuisine but it's still american.

so,,, just to be clear , are you sugesting that italian food need to be prepared in Italy, or prepared by Italians or both in order to be considered Italian

 

[jobo]

But your term 'futbol' (Turkish) translates into 'football'. How is that confusing?

that's not confusing, in fact non of it is confusing.

there are two types of foot ball in the world

association football and rugby football, which was( and still is) a type of football played at rugby school, a school located near the town of rugby.

and that's it, what ever american football is, it isnt football,, it's a modification to rugby football that doesnt to the most part involve feet, apart from conversions or as you lot insist field goals which its self is somewhat confusing as you dont have any goals

 

[dvcochran]

Italian cuisine as a thing, but not actually Italian. It may be authentic "italian" cuisine but it's still american.

How so?

 

[_Simon_]

that's not confusing, in fact non of it is confusing.

there are two types of foot ball in the world

association football and rugby football, which was( and still is) a type of football played at rugby school, a school located near the town of rugby.

and that's it, what ever american football is, it isnt football,, it's a modification to rugby football that doesnt to the most part involve feet, apart from conversions or as you lot insist field goals which its self is somewhat confusing as you dont have any goals

Don't forget Aussie Rules (AFL)!

 

[jobo]

Don't forget Aussie Rules (AFL)!

another rugby copy, hence the name" aussie rules" but it does at least have a fair bit of kicking in it, so il give it a pass,

 

[dvcochran]

Is it possible that the "pure" or "historically accurate" versions of a style may actually be more effective than its modern versions? Going back to the musical analogy, many covered versions (redone by another artist) of a classic hit are not as moving (effective) as the original and perceived by many as being a cheap imitation.

In TMA, many modern versions of a style have actually been degraded over time, having some techniques modified (their original purpose lost) or eliminated and others added, resulting in a less pure and often less effective version. Sort of like messing around with a great recipe.

I think it's fair to say that many believe modern "PC" culture is not as beneficial to society as a whole as, say, the culture of our grandparents, when there was a lower rate of out of wedlock births, lower crime rate, less homelessness, less drug use, greater national pride, and less desire to be on welfare.

Many products today, mechanical, service, and food, are not of the same quality as when I was young, plus being relatively more expensive. Full service gas stations and free air for your tires? House calls by your long time physician? I can tell you its harder to find good produce at the supermarkets than in years past. Overdependence on technology where hackers or energy burst can put our computerized society in dire straits? Personal attention from a human when you call a business? Younger readers here may have little idea of these things.

Sure, there have been many beneficial advancements on all fronts, but certainly not all. My point is simply that just because something is from the past, it is not necessarily less "effective" or preferable than the modern version. In such cases, the historical style can be celebrated and embraced for its positive traits, guilt free.

Very, very well said.
Being in the engineering field much of what I do is making thing better, faster, cheaper. There have been several times where I have scratched my head on the ‘better’. Usually what it means is ‘better’ to the customers bottom line.
I also see the manipulation of buzzwords often. The one I feel is must relevant to your post is the extremely manipulated ad word ‘organic’. Many, many foods sold as organic never even see the light of day; instead raised with grow lights. Sure it is in some man-mixed byproduct soil but that is certainly not my idea of organic.

It is logical to assume similar things take place in MA’s. Form a purist and historical perspective of course this could be bad. However I do think there have been good and logical changes where/when a technique has been improved or even replaced over time.

 

[_Simon_]

another rugby copy, hence the name" aussie rules" but it does at least have a fair bit of kicking in it, so il give it a pass,

Yeah, we decided we couldn't stand just running around with the ball, had to be kicked! A weird bunch the Aussies...

 

[jobo]

Yeah, we decided we couldn't stand just running around with the ball, had to be kicked! A weird bunch the Aussies...

thats hot countries for you, that why the Indian sub continent is very fond of cricket and not so big on other colonial sports, one can accuse cricketers of excessive running

I'd always assumed Aussie rules was developed so you didnt have to move far from your tinny

 

[_Simon_]

I'd always assumed Aussie rules was developed so you didnt have to move far from your tinny

It's entirely possible [emoji14]

 

[dvcochran]

that's not confusing, in fact non of it is confusing.

there are two types of foot ball in the world

association football and rugby football, which was( and still is) a type of football played at rugby school, a school located near the town of rugby.

and that's it, what ever american football is, it isnt football,, it's a modification to rugby football that doesnt to the most part involve feet, apart from conversions or as you lot insist field goals which its self is somewhat confusing as you dont have any goals

If I do love to watch a game of Rugby. A very physical sport.
Our son did it as a rec league sport in college until his football coach found out and made him quit.
I have never fully understood the scrum rules but it is great fun to watch.

 

[jobo]

If I do love to watch a game of Rugby. A very physical sport.
Our son did it as a rec league sport in college until his football coach found out and made him quit.
I have never fully understood the scrum rules but it is great fun to watch.

8m not sure anyone does

in my day, it was an excuse to punch and kick your opersite number on the blind side of the referee, all scrums desended into a scrum of brawling forwards whilst the backs got on with the game. I was a,winger, who do practically nothing for the whole game, apart from occasionally sprinting to glory, unless we were loosing the scrum war, then I got drafted in to sort someone out

the whole actual purpose of the scrum is to get 10 people out of 30 out of the game, so something happens

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that's not confusing, in fact non of it is confusing.

there are two types of foot ball in the world

association football and rugby football, which was( and still is) a type of football played at rugby school, a school located near the town of rugby.

and that's it, what ever american football is, it isnt football,, it's a modification to rugby football that doesnt to the most part involve feet, apart from conversions or as you lot insist field goals which its self is somewhat confusing as you dont have any goals

It's an odd term for the sport, but it used to have more feet involved than it does now.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Possible, but unlikely to be more effective if for no other reason than that being effective isn't the main goal.

Originally, the techniques WERE designed with effectiveness as the main goal, developed by trained warriors for actual use in survival situations. Granted, some of these situations have changed over the past two or three centuries, so there is some room for modernization, but the principles of tactics and biomechanics have not changed. If some TMA techniques do not seem to be effective, chances are they are not being done as originally intended, with some footwork or proper application missing.

Do not confuse the stylized, rote, interpretation of many TMA systems/schools with the original "purer" versions of MA (somewhat still existing) which had little philosophical and competition flavoring added. Foods tasted great without artificial additives and mass production techniques once upon a time. MA is not so different.

This is one of those highly subjective things here. If two people don't want to get married, why does it matter? See, you're already defining things by your own personal standards and phrasing them as if they were objectively better

You LIKE calling a business only to get several menus to slog thru till you get the one you want, only to be given a voicemail option? I provided a number of like examples of the degradation of customer service which I think is self-evident, brooking little disagreement. If one looks objectively at out of wedlock births, one must consider ramifications: Aren't two good parents better than one to provide role models, parental care, and often income? (Naturally, there are exceptions to this general rule.) I believe statistics support the link between one parent families with higher poverty, school dropout and crime rates. Regardless of one's social standards and preferences, somewhere, facts must be accepted without being spun to conform with a self-serving view point.

I'm not making any social judgements here, just trying to get across that often, traditional values, and traditional martial arts, have worth and are till relevant.

 

[Steve]

Originally, the techniques WERE designed with effectiveness as the main goal, developed by trained warriors for actual use in survival situations. Granted, some of these situations have changed over the past two or three centuries, so there is some room for modernization, but the principles of tactics and biomechanics have not changed. If some TMA techniques do not seem to be effective, chances are they are not being done as originally intended, with some footwork or proper application missing.

Sure. I think I've mentioned this before, but in one generation without application, the quality of skill will begin to deteriorate. It's not about the quality of the content. It's about atrophy of skill. Let's take MMA as an example. MMA has a clear application. Let's say I am an elite level MMA fighter. I have a lot of skill and a ton of experience. I am well qualified to open a school and teach students. But I have a change of heart. While I want all my students to be skilled... I don't want them to fight. I discourage them from competing, and limit sparring to within the school only.

So, one generation, I have my best student... trained him as best as I can to do all the things I can do. He's pretty darn good, too. But he's never competed as a grappler or as a striker. Do you think he will be as effective as me? I don't, though if he decides to apply his skills, he may catch up pretty fast.

Now let's say this top student of mine doesn't ever apply his skills, and instead decides to open up his own school, teaching others everything I taught him. He doesn't have any experience of his own, and so he is relying entirely on what he remembers from me. The point is that it's not the material. It's the lack of individual experience. Because when people actually do things, they never do them exactly the way they were taught. They start with the lessons, and then figure out how to make those lessons actually work, which always leads to some degree of personalization.

And so it goes. This is TMA. This is why I'm not at all surprised when I see videos like the WC videos being shared now where individuals are identifying venues in which to apply their styles and pretty quickly developing actual, functional skill. It's the training model that's flawed, not the content. The flaw is that "traditional" styles intrinsically value fidelity over everything else, and fidelity is almost always at the expense of efficacy.

Do not confuse the stylized, rote, interpretation of many TMA systems/schools with the original "purer" versions of MA (somewhat still existing) which had little philosophical and competition flavoring added. Foods tasted great without artificial additives and mass production techniques once upon a time. MA is not so different.

Speaking of food, this reminds me of the Post Roast Principle: The Pot Roast Principle

You LIKE calling a business only to get several menus to slog thru till you get the one you want, only to be given a voicemail option? I provided a number of like examples of the degradation of customer service which I think is self-evident, brooking little disagreement. If one looks objectively at out of wedlock births, one must consider ramifications: Aren't two good parents better than one to provide role models, parental care, and often income? (Naturally, there are exceptions to this general rule.) I believe statistics support the link between one parent families with higher poverty, school dropout and crime rates. Regardless of one's social standards and preferences, somewhere, facts must be accepted without being spun to conform with a self-serving view point.

I'm not making any social judgements here, just trying to get across that often, traditional values, and traditional martial arts, have worth and are till relevant.