The Truth About Traditional Martial Arts

mograph

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These responses are so bizarre. It seems a lot of you are getting caught in the definition of TMA. By focusing all your attention on the title you are missing the content. There are a lot of useful ideas within these videos which are valuable to all martial artists. Throw off the shackles and free your mind from the need to define. Dive in and seek what is useful. We are all practicing martial artists and we can all learn from one another. This is not a religion, there is no need to be so dogmatic in your approach. There are different schools of thought from which we can learn. It just requires an open mind - oh yeah, and the ability to actually watch the videos in the first place :D
I thought I said that ...?
 

Xue Sheng

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These responses are so bizarre. It seems a lot of you are getting caught in the definition of TMA. By focusing all your attention on the title you are missing the content. There are a lot of useful ideas within these videos which are valuable to all martial artists. Throw off the shackles and free your mind from the need to define. Dive in and seek what is useful. We are all practicing martial artists and we can all learn from one another. This is not a religion, there is no need to be so dogmatic in your approach. There are different schools of thought from which we can learn. It just requires an open mind - oh yeah, and the ability to actually watch the videos in the first place :D

First my apologies, you have to understand that some of us have been here on MT for a very long time, in my case longer than anyone should be (IMO :)) and we have seen copious videos posted that are basically "my art is better than your art" or "Your art stinks and here's why"... so when videos appear we tend to be jaded and just not want to get into it....again....

However with that said, I just watched all 4 videos and do recommend if you train a "traditional" martial art, ESPECIALLY and "Traditional Chinese" martial art, you should watch them, I highly recommend it.

I agree with much of what he has said, both in application and historically. However I want to add, that as far as I know, of the big 3 Chinese internal martial arts, Xingyiquan appears to be the. only one willing to openly admit it is internal and external. There is also a little more detail as to how XIngyi came from a spear art, but I will not get into that here

One thing he implied, IMO, that I am not in full agreement with is the implication that you need weapons training to get empty hand to work. Can it beneficial to know weapons? Most certainly snd more should be trained, but it is not necessary. Could it make understanding come faster? Well, I think it might, but I do not think it is required.

I should also add I wish there was more actual weapons training in CMA. Mostly, these days, it is forms with little application. But then even in Taijiquan even push hands is fading into the ether and becoming a 2 person mediation of sorts

I also want to be clear that I am most certainly not claiming any sort of weapons competence in live combat, but I will say that when I taught Yang Taijiquan, I knew many applications of the Dao and when students asked, and the rarely asked, about applications, 100% of them all cringed and never asked again. They simply do not want to know the potential violence that is inherent to the Dao, or any weapon for that matter

Same can be said of the empty hand forms, especially in Taijiquan. In Taijiquan and Xingyiquan, there are a lot of moves that people have no idea what they do and have no suspicion what-so-ever that some of these break things, including necks, and they don't want to know either.

Also these videos make me wish I could get back to my Wing Chun Shifu on a regular basis, because he looks at things much the same way as Adam Chan is looking at them as far as Martial arts goes. His class is the only Wing Chun school, locally, that included sparing and sticks in the training for his students. But at this time it is unlikely that I will get back there any time soon

Great videos, you really should watch them before commenting

EDIT: This just came to me, one other disagreement, although historically he is mostly right. The oldest documented Chinese martial art, which would be traditional by his definition, predating Qing (1644 - 1912), is ju矇l穫 or jiol穫. Which is described as a combat wrestling which date so Qin Dynasty (221 - 207 BCE) and it was known for joint locks, strikes, throws and pressure point attacks
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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What about enlightenment or character as gained through hardship?
If you get a computer science degree and write program, your finger typing speed can be faster than normal human being. But the main purpose for you to get your computer science degree is not to speed up your typing speed.
 
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marvin8

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These responses are so bizarre. It seems a lot of you are getting caught in the definition of TMA. By focusing all your attention on the title you are missing the content.
No, they're not. In the OP Part I video, Adam explains his definition of TCMAwhich I listed from the transcript.

There are a lot of useful ideas within these videos which are valuable to all martial artists.
Please share "a lot of useful and valuable ideas" that you found in these videos, rather than continue to make strawman and ad hominem arguments.
 

marvin8

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Do you think his opponent throws 1 punch and he counters back with

- 1 block, and
- 9 punches

is realistic?

No. Also, Adam is punchingwhich he says is non-traditional and "breeds social violence and ego."

At 6:42...

Adam Chan said:
Or looking at it as a spectrum. On this side you've got weapons which is killing, literally you kill the guy. Here you got minimum damage which is like chin na, where you restrain somebody. And in the middle is like punching and kicking or elbow or grappling whateverwhere most of the time no one really dies, but they're also injured. So, does this make sense? So, you get in the middle you're punching the guy you're breaking his jaw it hurts. Here we got killing weapons and here you got don't hurt the guy restraint. The stuff in the middle always breeds social violence and ego.
 

drop bear

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No. Also, Adam is punchingwhich he says is non-traditional and "breeds social violence and ego."

At 6:42...
I think the whole premis he is coming from is all sizzle and no steak.

he has just placed this value on things. Without really demonstrating why.
 

isshinryuronin

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Do you think his opponent throws 1 punch and he counters back with

- 1 block, and
- 9 punches

is realistic?

While many of his strikes are ineffective, being too short with little body behind them, there are several checks in the series, and he does manipulate the opponent to some degree. I think the combo series is too long. It's possible to get a couple of decisive, fight-ending, blows - the main goal - in a lot sooner. For these reasons I would give him just a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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While many of his strikes are ineffective, being too short with little body behind them, there are several checks in the series, and he does manipulate the opponent to some degree. I think the combo series is too long. It's possible to get a couple of decisive, fight-ending, blows - the main goal - in a lot sooner. For these reasons I would give him just a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10.
I believe the major difference between TMA and boxing is when you apply TMA, you control your opponent's arm when you punch him.

In Bruce Lee's 2 moves combo, Bruce's

- 1st move controls his opponent's right arm.
- 2nd move controls his opponent's left arm (and right arm).

 
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drop bear

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While many of his strikes are ineffective, being too short with little body behind them, there are several checks in the series, and he does manipulate the opponent to some degree. I think the combo series is too long. It's possible to get a couple of decisive, fight-ending, blows - the main goal - in a lot sooner. For these reasons I would give him just a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10.

In that short clip of Wang's he voluntarily gave up the blind side to walk towards a right hand.
 

marvin8

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I think the whole premis he is coming from is all sizzle and no steak.

he has just placed this value on things. Without really demonstrating why.
Also, the premise that TCMA did not include striking and kicking is false, given the shaolin temple included them in 495 A.D. Plus, modern MA does not require striking and kicking to finish an opponent.

I believe the major difference between TMA and boxing is when you apply TMA, you control your opponent's arm when you punch him.
No. I posted clips where the boxer (e.g., Lomachenko, Usman, Golovkin) controls the opponent's arm with one hand while striking with the other.

In Bruce Lee's 2 moves combo, Bruce's

- 1st move controls his opponent's right arm.
- 2nd move controls his opponent's left arm (and right arm).

In MMA (aka "modern MA"),

- 1st move controls his opponent's arms and center.
- 2nd move (osoto gari) takes him down without striking or kicking.

FUjgpVR.gif


I get the impression that Adam says things that get the most views. Because 11 years ago, Adam at 2:50 says...
Adam Chan in 2011 said:
In films, the techniques are performed beat by beat sequences. So you can see, I am waiting for his response. Everything is beat by beat. But for real application, that is too slow. Wing Chun doesnt chase the hands but it chases the centerline. So, its quicker. Its already in. If he blocks, never wait for his hand to 'trap,' never this slow

"Yip Man: Real vs Movie Wing Chun /Adam Chan - WING CHUN VANCOUVER:"

cPacvHB.gif
 
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drop bear

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Also, the premise that TCMA did not include striking and kicking is false, given the shaolin temple included them in 495 A.D. Plus, modern MA does not require striking and kicking to finish an opponent.


No. I posted clips where the boxer (e.g., Lomachenko, Usman, Golovkin) controls the opponent's arm with one hand while striking with the other.


In MMA (aka "modern MA"),

- 1st move controls his opponent's arms and center.
- 2nd move (osoto gari) takes him down without striking or kicking.

FUjgpVR.gif


I get the impression that Adam says things that get the most views. Because 11 years ago, Adam at 2:50 says...


"Yip Man: Real vs Movie Wing Chun /Adam Chan - WING CHUN VANCOUVER:"

cPacvHB.gif

And I think his armed unarmed during war theory isn't exactly on point.

Western society has always placed a high value on unarmed martial arts for war. There has always been a wrestling or a boxing or whatever.

The Mongolians wrestled. I mean I am not sure where Gengis Kahn fits in to the time line of China but i assume that was pretty early on.

 

Kung Fu Wang

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Wing Chun doesnt chase the hands but it chases the centerline. So, its quicker. Its already in. If he blocks, never wait for his hand to 'trap,' never this slow

cPacvHB.gif
What if your opponent's center is guarded by his rhino guard? What will you do if your opponent's center is already occupied by his own arms? Any straight punches that you throw, it will be intercepted by your opponent's rhino guard.

 
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drop bear

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What if your opponent's center is guarded by his rhino guard? What will you do if your opponent's center is already occupied by his own arms?


He is literally moving his hands off center to block those punches

And I think the concept of chasing hands might be a bit different to what you think it is.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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He is literally moving his hands off center to block those punches

And I think the concept of chasing hands might be a bit different to what you think it is.
When you throw a

- right punch, if I can deflect your right punch to your right.
- left punch, if I can deflect your left punch to your left.

your center is exposed, I can then take your center.

 
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OP
T

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Also, the premise that TCMA did not include striking and kicking is false, given the shaolin temple included them in 495 A.D
Adam Hsu has written about the Shaolin temple. It can be found in his book The Sword Polisher's Record. The title of the essay is The Myth of Shaolin Kung-Fu and the opening paragraphs begins:

The Shaolin Temple is often thought of as the origin and center of martial arts. The Shaolin monks passed on their ancient arts, providing the seeds from which the numerous kung-fu styles grew over the centuries. In reality, Shaolin Kung-fu is mostly a fairy tale, and the origins of Shaolin kung-fu is more mythical than real.

When I posted the original videos my intention was positive. The videos struck me as interesting and informative. Being new to the forum I was unaware that some members would respond in the way they have. All history is debatable, and labels are open to interpretation. You can watch the videos if you choose, or ignore them. You can discuss the minutia of the topic until the cows come home - it is your choice. My aim was just to share something which I thought others would enjoy too.

Thank you once again for all your comments
 

marvin8

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What if your opponent's center is guarded by his rhino guard? What will you do if your opponent's center is already occupied by his own arms? Any straight punches that you throw, it will be intercepted by your opponent's rhino guard.

Attack his lead leg (e.g., kick, sweep) or the groin, uppercut, teep, control two arms (extended guard w/weak position/leverage) with one, etc. There are many counters, when the opponent blocks a jab or feint (one hand) with two hands.

rhino guard violates the action/reaction principle. While the opponent freezes his right jab and position, you...

1. block your opponent's jab with two hands
2. shuffle step, head control, wrap the jab
3. reap/cut the front leg

CDOQ7tB.gif
 

drop bear

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When you throw a

- right punch, if I can deflect your right punch to your right.
- left punch, if I can deflect your left punch to your left.

your center is exposed, I can then take your center.


Yeah. But that is just how fighting works. Not really to do with a rhino guard.
 

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