The Tapi Tapi Legacy: The 'New,' the 'Old,' and the Gatekeepers.

Cruentus

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I. Intro

This will probably be the longest thread yet, but I want to address some important issues here. If you can bear through reading all of this, then I want to hear your opinions. They are very important to me. I feel that discrepancies involving Tapi-Tapi has been one of the key things that has separated the associations, as well as the individual practitioners. Therefore, I feel the issue should be discussed.

II. The development of Modern Tapi-Tapi.

Ill begin with a little note about Professor Presas. Professor liked to take a simple idea and apply it to as many different concepts, in as many different ways possible. This is not uncharacteristic of the Filipino arts in general. One idea or movement has developed entire styles. This expansion of ideas is part of what was so cool about Professors seminars. In a day, he could start off with Single Sinawali with 1 or 2 sticks; 5 or 6 hours later he would have everyone doing empty-handed traps, locks, and takedowns off of the same movement. Why? Because Its all da same! Remember? This way, regardless of skill level, everyone would benefit from his seminars.

Now, lets discuss Tapi-Tapi within the last few years. For all intensive purposes, well call it Modern Tapi-Tapi, so there wont be any confusion. Modern Tapi-Tapi began in the 90s as a drill, very much like the box drill, or any other give-and-take drill. One of the key differences was that instead of an even give-and-take, you had a driver who would dominate the entire segment of the drill. This drill, as Modern Tapi-Tapi was only a drill in the beginning, began to develop. Just as Professor had expanded upon other exercises in the past, eventually Tapi-Tapi became more then just a drill. It transformed into an intricate method of give-and-take, where one can express important Modern Arnis concepts. Professor had become very excited about his new innovation. He had even called it the heart of the Art. Yes, he did say this on more then one occasion; I was there for a few of them.

III. Flow

Professor called Tapi-Tapi the heart of Modern Arnis. He had also said this about other things in the past, however. Are we to assume, then, that he was wrong when he had said this before? Are we to believe that one Drill is the heart of the entire Art? If that is the case, then lets just change the name of our art from Modern Arnis to Tapi-Tapi, and be done with it.

I dont believe that he was wrong all those years when he had said the same about other things, and I dont believe that all of Modern Arnis is to be based off of one drill. Our Art would be very limited if that where true. I think that every-time Professor said This is the Key or This is the heart of the Art, he was referring to a concept within the drill, not just the drill by itself.

This concept that Im referring to is the Flow. The Flow is basically the idea of properly adapting to the change from one thing to another. In Modern Arnis, the Flow will allow one to constantly spiral upward in learning, always progressing to a higher level. In life, the Flow will allow one to adapt to its many changes, to constantly grow. In combat, the Flow will allow one to respond to the ever-changing circumstances, allowing one to stay alive. Professor, in every situation, had mastered the flow. I think that if we are to adequately interpret what he meant, we would all agree that Flow is the heart, and the Flow demonstrated in the drills is the heart, not the drill itself.

Now, this is not to diminish the Tapi-Tapi exercise. Over the last few years, Professor loved Modern Tapi-Tapi. Though this drill, he had developed a new way of teaching old and advanced concepts; concepts that he had previously used to beat other Arnisadors and Martial Artists. These advanced concepts could be taught to beginners. Before the development of Modern Tapi-Tapi, these concepts were privy to only the most advanced of his students. As some of Professors more experienced students will point out, Tapi-Tapi wasnt necessarily in introduction to New Arnis techniques; it was just a new and wonderful way of teaching the Flow of these techniques. This is why Professor had become so passionate about Modern Tapi-Tapi. He found a great new way for his students to learn the flow.

He became so passionate about Modern Tapi-Tapi, that the words The Flow and Tapi-Tapi became almost interchangeable. Nowadays, many of his students use the words Tapi-Tapi, in the same way that I, or others use The Flow. It is only a matter of rhetoric. I chose not to interchange the words, however, for a very important reason. I will explain my reason later on.

Now, after defining what Professor had said, I need to make a vital point. Could someone find the Flow in other Modern Arnis drills, other then Modern Tapi-Tapi? Could important innovations be made from other exercises? Yes! Professor had been doing this throughout his whole career, with students 10, 15, and 20 plus years ago. Advanced students learned the flow without Modern Tapi-Tapi. Keep in mind that there existed very complex exercises, such as Solo Baston and Stick Sparring methods that have been around for ages.

III. The Old, the New, and the Gatekeepers.

This explanation of Modern Tapi-Tapi is insufficient for the Gatekeepers. Unfortunately, the truth about Tapi-Tapi is not what the Gatekeepers would want you to think. The term Gatekeeper is actually not my term; it was made up and used as a joke during some of the old camp days. As funny as it was, the Gatekeeper definition far too accurately describes too many of our current leaders and practitioners of Modern Arnis. Gatekeepers are basically higher ranked individuals who want to make people believe that they are the ones who hold the key to the Gates of Professors methods, and no one else. It is their belief that only through them (and their interpretation of Professor) that successful knowledge of the art may be acquired. They are exclusionists. Their main concern is securing their position as Gatekeeper. They want to make up the rules for Professors art. They will let you in to learn only if you abide by their rules, and if you pay homage to them as the all mighty Gatekeepers. You must vow to never even try to learn anything in Modern Arnis beyond what they know, you must never question them, and dont even suggest that you should become a Gatekeeper yourself.

Obey them and pay homage and you are welcome. Disobey, and you are ostracized by them. Even questioning them could lead to exclusion. They do this because they are afraid of losing face, and their technique is limited. They are only good to a point, and only at certain things. They want you to believe, of course, that they are just like professor. They want you to think that because theyve hung around professor that this must be true. Do not, however, ever confuse them as being anywhere near like Professor. You see, the Gatekeepers have stopped learning. They have gotten good to a point, and then their egos kicked in, and they stopped training. Oh sure, theyd show their faces at the seminars, to stroke their egos. Professor might use them to demo, and every now and again theyd walk by you while you were training, just to tell you what to do. Professor would sometimes give them little jobs, to keep them occupied, and to make them feel special. Did you ever see them train? How about something basic, like block-check-counter with a less experienced student? You see, once they became Gatekeeper, they were too busy gate-keeping for training, or learning. They are not like Professor. Professor never stopped learning.

Now that we know what I mean by Gatekeepers, who are the Old and the New? To keep it simple, I have coined these terms. The Old are people who trained with Professor before 1990, and the New are people who have either started training, or continued their training with Professor after 1990. I separate the two, for our purposes here because both the Old and the New have different, but wonderful things to offer Modern Arnis. The New had the blessing of being around for the development of Modern Tapi-Tapi, and to witness Professors most recent innovations. The Old had the benefit of training in other aspects of the art that hadnt been a focus in more recent years. Both the Old and the New are equally important to the Art. For example, if I want to learn Modern Tapi-Tapi innovations, I might want to talk to a someone who trained w/ Professor in more recent years; if I want to learn something like Modern Arnis Daga y Mano, I may instead want to talk to someone who trained close with Professor before the 90s. Do you see what I mean?


IV. The Gatekeeper Abuse of Modern Tapi-Tapi

Well, the Gatekeepers have since come and gone over the years, but theyve always been the same. But we are now in a dilemma. The ones who have stuck around for the last 8 years or so are now using Modern Tapi-Tapi to do what they do best. They are using Professors wonderful innovation to exclude others. It has gotten worse since Professors death. This is what they want you to believe:

If you are a member of the New, you are told that Modern Tapi-Tapi (the drill, not the flow concept) is the heart of Modern Arnis. After all, that is what Professor said, right? Well, since they are oh so wonderful at Modern Tapi-Tapi (hey, maybe theyre even a master at it), that they must know the most out of anyone about Modern Arnis. Therefore, you must learn through them if your going to get anywhere at all through the art. If you disagree with them or their methods, then you must completely misunderstand the art. And who really cares what your knife, double stick, empty hand, or other techniques are like; after all the Gatekeepers might know one drill better then you, soyou must pay homage to the Gatekeepers!

If you are a member of the Old, you are told something even worse. You are basically told that your hard earned training, previous to the development of Modern Tapi-Tapi, is second rate. This is because Modern Arnis is a progressive art. So, if you havent been around for the last few years, then you somehow missed it. You missed the progression. So, scrap everything you know. Forget the fact that you trained with professor for years in the old days, learning all aspects of the Flow, and that you can probably single cane kick the crap out of some of the Tapi-Tapi Gatekeepers with Solo Baston techniques of the past. You dont know a lick of Modern Tapi-Tapi, so you must now pay homage to the Gatekeepers!

This may seem exaggerated, but I dont think Im too far off. Granted, the Gatekeepers arent saying these things outright, but this is the message that they give. These gatekeepers, so long as they remain Gatekeepers, are bad for the art. They pit Old against New, student against student, and association against association. Weve got Old people coming out of the woodwork with a sense of duty after Professors death, and New people are discouraging them with the message, Wait, you havent been around for the last 5 years to witness Professors resent innovations, how dare you claim to know anything now! The Old, often on the defensive, give back the message, Ive trained for a long time, and I know things that youve probably never seen. How dare you! And lets not even address how exclusionary some associations have been, with some of their key players being Gatekeepers themselves. All of these problems and arguments have been created and propagated by the Gatekeepers. As long as different members of the art argue over its aspects, then the Tapi-Tapi Gatekeepers will continue their rein. Everyone will be too busy arguing among each other, and not enough will pack together to expose them for who, and what they really are.

V. Conclusion

I feel that what the Gatekeepers have done with one of Professors most innovative drills, Tapi-Tapi, is outright wrong. I think that if Professor knew how this beautiful drill was going to be used to exclude, as opposed too include, I think that he would have re-thought a few things; especially the titles he gave, and the rhetoric he used when referring to Tapi-Tapi. I am careful, nowadays, when I use the words Tapi-Tapi. I say Solo-Baston when referring to the drill, and Flow when referring to the concept. I just dont like what the Gatekeepers have done with the name. Dont get me wrong, some of my Arnis friends avidly use the term Tapi-Tapi, and there are members of the Masters of Tapi-Tapi group whom I respect. Many of my friends still say Tapi-Tapi is the essence of the art, when I would say that the Flow is. Well Its all da same! Just understand why I use the word Flow instead.

VI. Epilogue: What to do?

Well, what can we do about the Gatekeepers, and the misuse of Tapi-Tapi? How do we further the art like our founding father would have wanted?

First of all, do not train with the Gatekeepers until they stop being Gatekeepers. This is what we can do about the abuse of our art. Now I know that this sounds like Im being exclusionary, but I am not. They can always stop being Gatekeepers. All they have to do is set their egos aside, and decide to work on furthering the art instead of excluding others. As difficult as this will be for them, it can be done. For as long as they remain Gatekeepers, though, do not train with them. No matter what theyve learned, their behavior will not benefit you at all. Not in the long run. Remember, they are ultimately excluding themselves, and they can always stop what theyre doing to come back home to the art.

To further the art, just remember what Professor stood for. With that we must all join hands together! The New and Old must humble themselves and learn what each other has to offer. Everyone, regardless of experience, plays an intricate role in this Art within your Art. If we all pact together the way Professor Presas would have wanted, we will continue the beautiful art of Modern Arnis!

Everyone in the art is a piece to its puzzle, and a piece that is lost could be lost forever.

Respectfully,
PAUL
:asian:
 

Roland

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I will have to look further and maybe discuss some things with you to make sure.
All in all though, Paul, I think you got it right again.

:wavey:
 

Brian Johns

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Paul,

You write very well and you expressed yourself quite well in your message. I do have a few things to say in response to what you stated in your long post.

One preliminary matter......since you refer to the "Gatekeeper abuse of Tapi Tapi", I assume that you are referring to the MOTTs. You indicated your belief that these Gatekeepers are excluding other folks. Quite frankly, I'm scratching my head over your feeling that they have excluded other people. I respectfully disagree with your opinion on that score. I can go into the reasons why I disagree with you on this issue. However, I think that any discussion of the MOTTs should be in a private e-mail between the two of us.

With regard to your description and understanding of tapi tapi, I will have to respectfully disagree as well.

(1)
It transformed into an intricate method of give-and-take, where one can express important Modern Arnis concepts.

I do not agree with this statement. While this statement may be true for beginners, it is not so once you have had experience with tapi tapi. It is much more than "an intricate method of give and take." Tapi tapi is counter for counter and can be done out of any drill. Tapi tapi is the CONCEPT of counter for counter. It is most assuredly not a drill. At the higher levels of tapi tapi, there is no such thing as give and take. A person will learn to spot the openings and undertake the appropriate counter. Tapi tapi can be done with sticks, with empty hand, knives, joint locks etc. Tapi tapi can be done out of the sinawalis, the block check counter drills, punches, any of the 12 angles...anywhere.

Furthermore, tapi tapi at its highest level involves angling, body positioning, use of the checking hand, hip involvement, triangle footwork and timing. There is an element of pressure sensitivity and feeling your opponent's energy and redirecting it.

(2) <<<<This is why Professor had become so passionate about Modern Tapi-Tapi. He found a great new way for his students to learn the flow. >>>>

This may be purely semantics. But I think that there is a difference between the flow and tapi tapi. The flow is the ability to move from one technique to another. Tapi tapi is the concept of counter for counter. It's the ability to counter an opponent's technique.

(3) <<This is why Professor had become so passionate about Modern Tapi-Tapi. He found a great new way for his students to learn the flow. >>

As I said before, tapi tapi is much more than flow. It's counter for counter. Indeed, tapi tapi is Tagalog for counter/counter.

(4) <<<If you are a member of the New, you are told that Modern Tapi-Tapi (the drill, not the flow concept) is the heart of Modern Arnis. After all, that is what Professor said, right? Well, since they are oh so wonderful at Modern Tapi-Tapi (hey, maybe theyre even a master at it), that they must know the most out of anyone about Modern Arnis.>>>

Without referring to the factions involved, I should point out once again that tapi tapi is NOT a drill. It is the concept of counter for counter and can be done with any drill. It's the ability to sense your opponent's intent and energy and countering whatever he is doing at that moment. It's done with timing, footwork, body positioning and all of the other stuff that I've indicated above. There are DRILLS to learn the concept of tapi tapi. Tapi tapi is NOT a drill. It is a concept and the concept is counter for counter.

There are those who would argue that there is no difference between the concept of the flow and the concept of tapi tapi and that it is all the same. That's probably true. However, the point of my post is to point out that tapi tapi is NOT a drill. It is a concept. This was something that was hammered into us by Professor. It is why he felt that it was the heart of the art in the past several years.

As for the remainder of the post and your political feelings regarding "gatekeepers" etc, I would be happy to discuss it but only through private e-mail. As I indicated above, I obviously have disagreements with your take on a certain faction and prefer not to discuss it in a public forum.





:soapbox:

Take care.
 
B

bloodwood

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For all intent and purposes the Professor's stage was the seminar. Of course there were private lessons but the main forum for the Professor to put out his art to the masses, in the old days or the new was the seminar. He had previously tried to teach solo-baston and keep it going with the flow but it was over the head of most students who would attend the seminars. Although there were many advanced students at his seminars the teaching was geared toward the beginner or intermediate student. Recently the Professor became excited about the tapi-tapi drills because it was something all students could in some form or another do and feel good about themselves and not get frustrated. He used it to connect the different techniques.

The PROBLEM with tapi-tapi began when it became the end all be all. I saw this first hand at the school I used to train at. New students would walk in off the street and were immediately started out on advanced tapi-tapi sets. Basics such as trapping hands, angles of attack, footwork, zoning and disarms were barely touched on. We used to do what the Professor loved to call innovations. They made you THINK.
Now students are doing prearranged tapi-tapi sets and think they've got it all. Just try and add and extra strike in at the end of the prearranged set and most of them will get wacked in the head. When the set is over that's it, they're done until they start on their next set. Granted the advanced players can keep a drill going forever but for the majority that is not the case.

Tapi-Tapi is just another piece of the giant puzzle that the Professor has left us. I don't believe any of us will ever complete the Puzzle because it was designed to keep growing and keeps us searching for new pieces and new sections to complete, however if we get stuck on one piece and linger on it too long we will loose out on the big picture. :soapbox:
 

Datu Tim Hartman

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I think what Paul is referring to is that if you weren't in the fold at the end, you were excluded from much of the information. In Paul's case, he was planning to see Remy at a seminar and was then told he was dead.

Paul would have gone to visit Remy if he had known he was ill. Many people were treated like mushrooms. Kept in the dark and covered in ****! Mao and I talked about this while Remy was still alive.

The problem is that the only time people would call each other was to promote seminars and camps they were hosting. I remember that MAO was shocked once when I called him. He asked me "What was up?" I said "Nothing, just called to say hello." and he was shocked. Prior to that he thought he was the only one to do that.

Besides Mao & myself, none of Remy's students would call to just shoot the breeze. Unfortunately, this is STILL the problem with most Modern Arnis people ( not all ). This is a kick in the balls to most of the people who were loyal to Remy and were left in the dark.

I won't be able to respond for a couple of days. I am leaving early in the morning for Datu Ric Journales wedding. I hope everyone has a safe weekend, and one more shameless plug....the camp is one week from today!!
 

Rich Parsons

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Hi to all,

Thanks to Paul for the post :asian:

I want to agree and disagree, and what a better
place then a friendly forum. :cool:

First a quick history - I started back in the mid
80's. All my instructors started in the late 70's
or early 80's. (* with the exception of working
with the Professor at seminars and camps. Then
everyone was a teacher to me. *)

I would have to agree with almost all of what
Paul has said. Even the definitions he has given
to the terms being used are good.

Would I like to see more of Tapi-Tapi, yes I
would.

As for the exclusion, by certain 'camps' - well
before the break of the IMAF camp(s) - I attended
(showed up to) the Michigan Summer Camp. Both the
leaders talked with me.

Many of the things I was 'TOLD', were not what I
wanted to hear. Pay Money and join as a person
and as an instructor, and also join as a school,
then we can talk. Your Rank will have to be
re-evaluated by 'me'. Oh By The Way, you bringing
Professor into your club just for your club was
not good enough. You have not traveled with him
and been to many of seminars and camps.

With the exception of a couple of seminars hosts
in South East Michigan, my school was usually not
invited, and asked to leave right after paying
the admission price. If I had a reputation of
breaking heads or hands or being a 'Total' Jerk.
(* I can be a jerk sometimes :p *) I would have
understood. The 'Gatekeepers' term sums this up,
quite well for my experience. Note: No refund was
offered, even after being asked for one.

I was told by the GateKeepers I had no Rank.

Yes I was defensive. :D But, I am human.

Have I found most of the post educational? YES!
Have I found many knowledgeable people on this
site? YES!

Have I found many people with their opinions here?
Yes, and this is good!

Therefore WhoopAss :asian: I respect your right
and privilege to disagree, and to take certain
discussions to private. Yet, I ask you to if
necessary query me in private, so I may also
learn.

Doumo Arigato Gozaimashita :asian:

Rich

(* Everyone has something to teach me even if it
is nothing more than Patience for a person. *)

(* OOOPS - Renegade posted in between my start
and finish ;~) *)
 

Mao

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Before this thread degenerates into something ugly, No one was ever MEANT to be excluded. At least not by the IMAF, inc.. There were alot of people who for one reason or another did not hear until late that Remy was ill, or already gone. There are probably several reasons for this. I won't go there now.
Of course there are many aspects to modern arnis. There are the "traditionals". Remy told me several times that people need to know these BEFORE they learned the more advanced stuff, i.e. tapi tapi among others. In order to learn the way tapi tapi is done, one can learn some pre arranged "sets". This is not to say that tapi tapi is to be done thisway, it's just an avenue to learning. Ultimately, tapi tapi is "where the fight is". It is difficult to fight from the largo range. Medio and corto range is where you'll get most of the "work" done. When practicing the traditionals, you can't just stop when you've done a couple rompida movements, eh? Chances are that you'll end up trading a few shots. Tapi tapi is used to aid in the prevention of this. The opponent has only a couple of options for the most part, take the bait or get hit. This can be debated from now 'till the cows come home. I don't want ot do that. The fact that some people are using tapi tapi as their "niche" is not wrong. Some use the knife, some use empty hand. Just as Remy use to do, some will "play to the crowd" to keep things interesting for the seminar participant. It is up to the "home" instrucors to teach most of the details. There isn't enough time in a seminar setting to get all the details for each type of movement.
As for some people not knowing about the Prof. until after his passing, this is hard. There were so many students of the Prof. that it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to notify everyone. Besides that, many of us were more concerned about spending time with Remy since time was in such short supply. Now we can either cry in our soup about what's gone before or we can move forward and continue to train, TOGETHER, in brotherhood like the Prof. wanted us to. Ther will certainly be different groups. So what. There will be differing opinions. So what. We should just do our work. It is an awfully stiff person that can't get along in a group and ecxchange ideas. No one is king. It is a good idea to get more than one perspective from knowledgable people in order to form an educated opinion. Otherwise the view is slanted.
This post is long enough.
Lets be informed. Lets train together. Lets be quiet more often and listen.
 

Brian Johns

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I think what Paul is referring to is that if you weren't in the fold at the end, you were excluded from much of the information. In Paul's case, he was planning to see Remy at a seminar and was then told he was dead.

Paul would have gone to visit Remy if he had known he was ill. Many people were treated like mushrooms. Kept in the dark and covered in ****! Mao and I talked about this while Remy was still alive.

It should be noted that there was a press release on the IMAF (and written by Dr. Schea) website in December of 2000 which detailed Professor's illness and his surgery. So the information was out there in public via the website several months before Professor's death. There was no attempt to exclude anyone. The information was on the website.

Perhaps the news of Professor's illness and death was not shared as much as it should have been. However, like I said, the information was on the IMAF website.

Lastly, if I recall correctly, a message was posted on the Escrima Digest within an hour of Professor's death. If I recall correctly, this post was done by Datu Hartman who was kind enough to share the information on the Escrima Digest and on the WMAA website. The notice of Professor's death was posted within a day or two on the IMAF website as well. So, again, the information was public.

So I have to agree with Mao's statement that:

No one was ever MEANT to be excluded. At least not by the IMAF, inc.. There were alot of people who for one reason or another did not hear until late that Remy was ill, or already gone. There are probably several reasons for this.

Take care.
 

arnisador

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I have to agree with Paul about the importance and relevance of tapi-tapi. I see three major themes of the Professor's teachings on techniques: The "it's all the same" principle, the flow, and the counter-for-counter principle. I see him emphasizing different things at different points of his career but I do not see it as a logical progression leading up to the pinnacle, tapi-tapi, in an All Roads Lead to Rome manner. They are three core ideas of Modern Arnis in my opinion. For me, the big thing about tapi-tapi is how it trains the live hand to be so much more than just a "checking" hand--but this is an idea that was stressed prior to the introduction of tapi-tapi into the curriculum.
 
S

SlimBobVin

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I think there is some sense of bitterness in this thread.
Paul is talking about the people we have all witnessed on occasion. The person who, while highly ranked in the art, chose to focus on things besides serious training at seminars in the recent past. The type of people who were not very kind to other people because they did not particularly care for that student's instructor or background or whatever. The kind of person who talked down to lower ranked students. The type of person who tried to use his/her influence to either boost their own ego or stand as an affront to others.

I beleive the acts of these Gatekeepers by no means tells us their understanding of the art, but instead, shows their lack of understanding of the personal relationship and love the professor had with each of his students.
Professor accepted everyone....even those who may have wronged them in the past.

The rhetoric and semantics is just that. So one person choses to focus on this drill and another person calls something by a different name. I never saw two people do empty hand form 5 the same way----Its the same thing. All of the people in this disscussion have had the opportunity to see what professor had in mind for his art. I don't believe it is a great secret one organization is keeping from the others. We all know the flow, we know the drills....most of all we know what professor stood for. There is no need to have secret emails or be bitter about any of this. There is definately no need for snide remarks.
The point to all of this is....if we say "don't train with the gatekeepers until they stop being gatekeepers" we are cutting of our noses to spite or face. People in other arts are looking at all of this right now and thinking less of our art.

WE ARE TURNING PEOPLE OFF.

Bottom line---Don't gatekeep--- ok lesson learned. Let's fix this attitude problem. Maybe its as simple as the phone call to say hello that Mao and Renegade give. Maybe its not. The truth is we all make mistakes and mistakes can be forgiven and reconciled. We should all live to accomplish this for our art and our professor.
 

Dan Anderson

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Hi Folks,
Some comments before I shuffle off to Buffalo,

Whoopass - Tapi Tapi IS a drill, one of several which teach the counter the counter concept. The flow is not just the ability to move from one technique to another. Tapi tapi IS NOT
senior to the flow. The flow, in Modern Arnis, is everwhere. Prof. Presas went over this with me many, many times. Tapi tapi, the drill, is exactly just that, whether done right on right or left on right. Once one begins to think out of the box then it expands to a conceptual level and becomes more.

Bloodwood - I totally agree that tapi tapi is just another piece of the puzzle Prof. Presas left us. Folks, one piece of the puzzle is not the entire puzzle.


Mao I agree with you on most parts, especially on this post not getting ugly and let's just train together, no one is king. The king has passed and let's hope that the many crown princes get along.

Paul It sounds like the gatekeepers are the MOTTS, in your view. If so just say so. I haven't found so much a superior snot-ball attitude in them as I have a real unwillingness to communicate and that can be taken as attitude. Personally, I feel they are in a type of a no-win situation - damned if they do and damned if they don't sort of thing. They were with RP at the last (along with Tim Hartman), were given the reins of IMAF and now have to carry on in the face of all the stuff which is occurring in the total heirarchy of Modern Arnis (other organizations, prior senior students and the like). Remy Presas is a tough act to follow without him passing away on us to add to it.

Anyway, I'm willing to discuss any of this and anything else (except why the Portland Trailblazers choke in the playoffs) over a cold one or across a pair of canes. See y'all in Buffalo.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis
:wink2:
 

Rich Parsons

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Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Hi Folks,
Some comments before I shuffle off to Buffalo,

. . .

Anyway, I'm willing to discuss any of this and anything else (except why the Portland Trailblazers choke in the playoffs) over a cold one or across a pair of canes. See y'all in Buffalo.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis
:wink2:

Dan,

I would be more than willing to talk over this
and other topics over a cold one in Buffalo.:asian:

As to the cross pair of canes, I would also be
willing to take any lessons you would be willing
to give.:)

Have a nice day and see you and everyone else in
Buffalo.:cool:

Rich
 

Mao

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Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Tapi tapi, the drill, is exactly just that, whether done right on right or left on right. Once one begins to think out of the box then it expands to a conceptual level and becomes more.

This has been said. By me for one. We are saying the same thing. Tapi tapi is more than a drill. You can treat it like a drill if you want to, but your not getting the whole point if you do.
Another point that I made earlier was that people are going to have differing opinions according to what Remy had said to them and according to their level. Let's move on.
 

Brian Johns

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Anyway, I'm willing to discuss any of this and anything else (except why the Portland Trailblazers choke in the playoffs) over a cold one or across a pair of canes. See y'all in Buffalo.

Dan,

Having been a lifelong fan of the Cleveland Indians, Browns and Cavaliers, I know the feeling of seeing your own team choke over and over and over. You may want to drink more than a few cold ones to help cope with the yearly disappointments.:cheers:


WOOOOOO!!!!
 
B

bscastro

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Having been a lifelong fan of the Cleveland Indians, Browns and Cavaliers, I know the feeling of seeing your own team choke over and over and over.

Don't mean to interrupt the discussion, but as a former Clevelander, I have to sympathize. Okay, that's all.

Bryan :)
 

Mao

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I am from N.Y. originally but spent most of my formative years in Cleveland. Well, actually Olmsted Falls which is a western Suburb. Many great memories. I still have family there and visit often.
 

Dan Anderson

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Whoopass and bscastro -
Going way off the thread but did you see the Blazers blow a lead with 2.9 seconds to go and let Kobe and Robert Horry sink 2 three pointers to win the game?!?:cuss:
That's nearly as bad as (insert something here concerning Jeff Delaney)!
Buffalo bound for a couple of cold ones.
Dan
 
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Cruentus

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Hello, Everyone...

Time to clear the air! :fart:

Whoop: First of all, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!:D

O.K., now second: I'm glad to hear your response. You describe Tapi-Tapi as a 'concept' rather then a drill, which is fine. You make the distinction between the 'drill' and 'concept'; you describe the concept of Tapi-Tapi in a similar manner that I describe 'flow.' In other words...

Nowadays, many of his students use the words "Tapi-Tapi" in the same way that I, or others, use "The Flow." It is only a matter of rhetoric.

I know your distinction between flow and Tapi-Tapi is a little bit different then mine, but I think that between us it may just be a matter of rhetoric. "It's all da same!" ;) I think that we both essentially have the same concept, even if we chose to explain it differently.

About MOTTS, and how they fit in. Just keep reading, and I'll explain.

Thanks for your reply, though.:cool:

Renegade: "You got it baby!" See you in 5 days!!!!!!! WOO!

Dan Anderson: First of all.....:asian:

First: I just wanted to say hi! You probably wouldn't remember me because the last time I saw you was in 1995, at a seminar w/ you and Prof. in Michigan, hosted by Jay Spiro. I was impressed with your teaching style, and the info/technique that you had to offer. It was informative and fun!! You seem to know a lot about Modern Arnis. In general, though, I feel that your an all around accomplished and knowledgable individual. I really value your opinions. I look foward to seeing you in Buffalo, checking out your book, and chattin' over some Beers! :cool:

Now, lets get down to business...

You said this:

Paul It sounds like the gatekeepers are the MOTTS, in your view. If so just say so. I haven't found so much a superior snot-ball attitude in them as I have a real unwillingness to communicate and that can be taken as attitude.

Dang, man! :eek:
I'm not sure what you ment exactly by that, but I sure hope you don't think that I have a 'superior snot-ball attitude' by not properly communicating. So, I had better clarify where I think the MOTTS fit in to all of this.

I did not mean for the Gatekeepers to mean the MOTTS, specifically. Now do I think that SOME members of the MOTTS are Gatekeepers, though? You had better believe it! There are some MOTTS that I still think are cool, though, as far as I remember (given that's it's been over a year that I have talked to them), and I look foward to training or at least meeting up w/ them in the future.

That doesn't matter, though. SlimBobVin got it right, for the most part:

"Paul is talking about the people we have all witnessed on occasion. The person who, while highly ranked in the art, chose to focus on things besides serious training at seminars in the recent past. The type of people who were not very kind to other people because they did not particularly care for that student's instructor or background or whatever. The kind of person who talked down to lower ranked students. The type of person who tried to use his/her influence to either boost their own ego or stand as an affront to others."

One thing that he left out was the word 'exclude' because gatekeepers try to exclude others.

I left the definition of "Gatekeepers" broad for a reason. I don't want to finger-point. Not at the MOTTS, or anyone. It's to easy to place blame on others. I want everyone, from the most experienced to the least, to take their own inventory. First, one needs to evaluate oneself to make sure that they aren't 'gatekeeperish.' And if someone has chosen one of Professors students as their teacher, then they need to take personal evaluation of their own teacher, and decide whether or not they are training under someone who is always learning, or w/ someone who thinks that they are the end-all.

I just wanted people to take their own inventory. Even though I am angry about certian things, I'm not the kind of guy who fingerpoints, or outright acts like an @$$hole. A goof, or an idiot, maybe, but NOT an @$$hole! :p

Thanks for the reply; I hope you get this before I see you in Buffalo!

MAO: How's it goin? I just wanted to address what you said:

"No one was ever meant to be excluded..."

Sure, no one sat down and said, "This person, this person, and this person will be excluded, this person won't be...." to play favorites. I didn't point fingers at any-one person, once again. But, let me tell you a little about what happend to me, and you can judge for yourself.

I went to Summer camp 00,' just to visit. I Hung out, Tapi-Tapi-ed w/ professor for a few minutes (basically so he could kick my butt a few times for good measure), and got thrown on the board against my will. Professor had talked to me, however, about testing next camp for rank again, and travelling and doing seminars the up-and-coming year. I told him that it would be difficult for me to see him til' next summer camp, on account that I was finishing up school. The reality was I didn't really have the $$, either. He seemed cool with that.

As the year progressed, I had heard that he had gotten hospitalized, and had undergone surgury Winter 01'. The impression from the message that I had got was that he was going to pull through. I think that even those close to him believed this in Winter 01'. He has gotten sick before, and he has always pulled through. To me, he always seemed so strong, despite whatever ailements he had. I just never thought he would pass away this soon.

Things progressed, and I graduated College. I get a flier for summer camp 01', with no detailed progress on professor, just that he wasn't going to be there. I was under the impression, still, that he would pull through. I was broke (the story of my life) with a degree; but no job yet with it. I wasn't going to kill myself to pay $400 to go to a camp that Professor wasn't going to be at. No offense, I just didn't have the cash. Instead worked on my resume,' worked construction to get as much $ together that I could, and I prepared for fall camp, or to take a trip to visit Prof. if he wasn't going to be there.

Then, he died. I was ready to go see him, and he died. When was I told? Well after his body was buried in the Philipines. I didn't even know he was on his death bed, and now he is gone. He would have liked to have seen me and my Bro. one last time, and we sure as hell would have liked to have seen him. One has to ask why I wasn't notified. It's not like I just got my Lakan 8 years ago and dropped out, or something like that; I had the man over my house, and I hosted a seminar for him just over a year before. I was a member of the Association. So...Why?

Here is why, or so I think:

If someone close to me was on there death bed, and I had control over there estate, or business, for instance, my prorities would be to spend time w/ that person for sure, but to make sure that all of the people that where close to him knew the situation. It would be my duty.

The same duty was imposed, whether they were ready for it or not, on certian individuals. Posting something on a website, or a blirb in a Martial Arts Magazine IS NOT ENOUGH. As Renegade said, those who were out of the loop were mushroomed. Something should have been mailed out to all old IMAF members, and to all of the people who had recieved a Black Blet from Professor at the very least!

No one took the initiative. Hell, if I would have known, my hiny would have gotton on the phone, at the very least

Maybe people where too broken up, or just didn't really know what to do. Or maybe certain people were too concerned with hogging time, or trying to obtain or maintain status before the man died. Maybe certain people didn't want everyone to know. I don't profess to know all the answers, and I think that the answers will vary per individual. All I know is that I was excluded. I got the puno of the corto baston, if you know what I mean, and I wasn't the only one. And for that, SOMEONE owes me and others an f-in apology.

Now, please understand that I'm not getting on an open web-talk to fingerpoint. I'm not going to place blame on any org., IMAF inc. or others, either. I also don't hate anyone. I will NOT agree, however, that no one meant to exclude others. I think that is exactly what certian individuals had meant to do, whether openly or inadvertantly.

"We can either cry in our soup, or move forward and train..."
I have definatily moved foward to train, and my attention is put on training, and uniting with others. The 'gatekeeper' subject is me addressing something that has been a problem for sometime, and that may always be a problem. I just feel that the points I made when opening this thread needed to be made. I WAS NOT kicking a dead horse over what had happend to me.

So, training and uniting is my top priority, not grudge holding. Yet, even still; you can't blame me for being pissed off about what happend. There is nothing anyone can do to give me my time back.

Thanks for your input, though. I do look forward to getting together w/ you soon!
:)

EVERYONE: The purpose of me starting this thread to begin with was to get people to take their own inventory, and to address those that exclude others. Yet, as MAO put it so well, "...let's continue to train, together, in brotherhood..."

AMEN! I hope to train with all of you soon, in brotherhood. :asian:
 

Mao

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There were alot of people who didn't know till late in the game, or till the game was over. I can only think of one individual whose motives were less than honorable. Most were doing what Remy had asked them to. I was the one who brought up another person to the Prof. to try to get the two in close contact. And this person has been around a LONG time. In the first stages, Remy didn't want people to know, or worry. Then , later, he didn't really want to deal with the baggage that some people would bring with them. As to why you specifically were not "notified", I don't have an answer. I do know at one point that the Prof. wanted a press release published. This is how "the masses" were being told. I personally didn't get in touch with you. I am sorry for that. I wasn't thinking about everyone else that may need to know. It was not intentional. Have you tried to contact the guilty parties to tell them how you feel. There would be several guilty parties in more than one organization. I can tell you that there was a point in time when everyone involved, doctors, nurses, family included were trying to keep visitation, including phone calls, to a minimum in order to not stress Remy. Your right, you should have been told. As has been said, though, I think the press release was an effort to acomplish this.
I hope we can get together soon to train, and talk. I always liked working with you and Norotious Nate. Please say hi to him for me.
till later,
Dan :)
 

modarnis

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Originally posted by PAUL

<<One has to ask why I wasn't notified. >>

Sorry that you are taking this so personally Paul. In your last post you describe receiving flyers for camps and other things that would lead me to believe you are "somewhat in the loop". At least 6 months prior to the Professor's death, the Modernarnis.com website (The one which is for all intent and purpose the IMAF Delaney site) had contact info for the Professor, including his wife's phone number in B.C.

If one wanted to be in the flow of information, little or no effort would put them in touch with numerous people who had up to the minute reports.

I received word of the Professor's death from 6 separate sources, within 8 hours. 5 of those sources were mailing lists from seminars/camps I had attended.

Info on the major memorial services in Chicago, Philadelphia, and the Philipines was updated daily on Modernarnis.com.

All of us were saddened by the Professor's death. Many of us had him as guests in our homes and schools or hosted repeat seminars with him.

I think your post was rather selfish and belittles the loss hundreds if not thousands of people suffered when this great man died
 

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