The Tapi Tapi Legacy: The 'New,' the 'Old,' and the Gatekeepers.

Roland

Black Belt
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2001
Messages
508
Reaction score
6
Location
Gilead
Either that, or get our butts out of our computer chairs and do some real training!

what do you think?!

:soapbox:
 
B

BRAM

Guest
I'm not really qualified to comment on this I guess. I'm not a MOTT nor a Guardian not anything but a student of Modern Arnis..
I remember in the 80's Professor doing single stick sparring..
you know..#1 high low high low #2 buttpunyo striking #3 clearing Payong-Umbrella, #4 butt- punyo sweeping
#5 Slant & umbrella passing...then add a strike to immediate head counter and a counter to the counter..He used to call that counter to counter Tapi Tapi..and it fit inside of single stick sparring..
Then of course we got to do as he did and change up from right to right to left to right..as long as we paid attention...
But always in interview, in class, in seminars..he used to say that having the FLOW was the key..FLOW is what Modern Arnis was about...
He;d show me something show me how it was different from something else then ask me could I see its all the same..
yes it confused me but it forced me to try to see it..
He told me and many people that he personally got the FLOW from the space between Redonda X movement and Sinawali...
yes. I know he may have said something else to others.. I don't want to make that an issue..Justthat I add to the comments of he was into the ability to FLOW.

late 80's and early 90's I remember the Tapi Tapi actually being a single stick sparring drill thatthen the main stay was understanding left to right..and the camps and seminars reflected that..
Bruce Chiu was traveling with Proffesor and doing a lot of Left to right and I was amazed that it was the thing to do.Bruce and I swapped knife drills for his expertice in Tapi Tapi...He was doing it all the time with Professor at least in Florida..But its still what I knew as left to right with a set pattern of trapping..
But the trapping came from Sinawali application , sinawali Boxing Drills and the ability to use the FLOW..

I never knew what a MOTT was till just before the Professor died..
I think its( Tapi Tapi) another way , a part of the era..part of that particular tme that Professor had found to teach FLOW..the ability to go with what happens within the space of action-reaction..
everyone grows and changes....He was changing wih thoe that were with him..He found new ways to expresshimself..its not better or worse than we all did before..

We're all got part of the truth as we are able to see it and express it..
sorry for the long rant..
Its only my opinion and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes and I have stuck to the main ORIGINAL thread..


bram
 

Dan Anderson

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
1,846
Reaction score
58
Location
Bridal Veil, Oregon
Mao -
Don't be so crabby. State your point (which you did) but don't be so crabby.

Roland -
Just spent the weekend training. My computer time is late in the evening when everybody is asleep.

Bram -
You just stepped on my toes...ha ha. Just doggin' ya. Good to "hear" you up on this forum. The flow is the way to go, baby.

All of you who missed the Buffalo camp missed tons of good vibes and lots of sweat breakin' and burning sticks smell. We had fun fun fun and daddy didn't take our T-bird away. Hoo wah, can you tell it's late?

Dan :boing1:
 
OP
Cruentus

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
Bram: It was good to hear from you. That's the kind of stuff I like to hear on this thread, not the 'he said she said' that I made the mistake of involving myself in.

DAN: The beach boys? Oh man...we need to add some different music to your repituior.:D
 

Dan Anderson

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
1,846
Reaction score
58
Location
Bridal Veil, Oregon
Paul,
My music repertoire muns very deep - check out the addition to my web page and check the list. Actually, I don't think I even own any Beach Boys. King Crimson, Miles Davis and the biggest assortment of progressive rock and jazz/rock - that's a different story. See if you recoignize more than a handful of names.
www.danandersonkarate.com/music
Dan
PS - Keep smilin'
 

Mao

Black Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2001
Messages
527
Reaction score
0
Location
Ohio
I'm not being crabby. I'm being succinct and to the point. Have you been around this forum for long? This petty stuff is just that, petty. And it sucks. If you think that it is good for the art, then go ahead and continue the "he said, she said" crap. I won't. If you've been around this forum for any length of time you'd know what I mean. Unless that's your style.

mao
 
OP
Cruentus

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
I heard something about your music selection. It's HUUUUUGE!
I haven't even had time to look through the entire thing yet. I'll definatily get back to you on that.:ubercool:
 

Dan Anderson

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
1,846
Reaction score
58
Location
Bridal Veil, Oregon
Mao,
I have been on this forum long enough to agree with you that the pettiness, etc. should not be there. I also agree with being succinct and to the point. But you have just contradicted yourself and opened yourself up with your last comment, unless that's your style, which comes across as the type of snot-ball comment you rail against. Come on, Dan.

Dan Anderson
 

Mao

Black Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2001
Messages
527
Reaction score
0
Location
Ohio
I gave what I got. What you posted to me seemed confrontational. I don't want a confrontation, nor will I easily back down from one.

mao
 

Guro Harold

Senior Master
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Oct 21, 2001
Messages
3,829
Reaction score
50
Location
Greensboro, North Carolina
I have refrained from posting on this topic for a while because I had to examine myself first.

Why was this thread and the other threads regarding succession started? Whether well intended or not, most of these threads have dealt with knowledge and power.

So was this the legacy that GM Presas wanted to leave to us? Its only been less than a year and we still have not shown proper respect for his memory.

Here are some of the issues that I have whether they be "Old", "New", or "Gatekeeper":

How many of us visited him when he was sick? God bless all of those who took care of him, not for their own promotion in the art but for the promotion of his health.

How many old/new/gatekeepers went to his funeral in the Philippines? There was only one US student, Lori Harwood, who was there. In spite of 9/11 and being stuck there for three weeks, she was there. Please bear that in mind when you see her and cut her some slack. I heard from the Presas family that the masters in the Philippines were shocked that there were not any top representatives to accompany his body.

How many threads or posts were created to lament that due to our circumstances or the crisis that gripped our country, that as much as we wanted to be at his funeral, we could not?

How many people know what the Presas family had to endure and how much they had to go through in order for the Professor to be buried in his homeland? How many of us know how much Datu Shishiar Inacallo and three of GM Presas' followers in the homeland had to do in order for him to have a burial plot?

How many of looked at MARPPIO out of suspicion instead of reaching out to them out of some mutual respect and loss of their father and our Grandmaster, though their loss will always be greater because he was their father.

How many of us were shocked by the "tribute" that was printed by the "Co-Successor"? How many people who were personally trained by GM Presas wrote rebuttals to state that he was more and contributed more than being a rolling stone?

I can't change the past, nor my past decisions, or letting time, money, or distance get in the way of visiting him. But I can control how I represent his legacy to me and how I represent his art and whether or not I do it with dignity and humility.
 

Mao

Black Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2001
Messages
527
Reaction score
0
Location
Ohio
That was well stated. I'm sure there are many answers to your thoughts. I agree that much, not all, of what has taken place is related to power, who wants it, who thinks that they have it and the ego's that go with these things. I have not read the tribute you mentioned. I don't visit that site 'cause I don't need the frustation. I am doing what Remy had asked me to do with the people he asked me to do it with. You have, and continue to, represent yourself and our mutual love of the art, in a good and positive manner. I'm glad to have met you in Raleigh also! I hope your at the Mich. camp.

Mao
 
D

DoctorB

Guest
Originally posted by BRAM

I'm not really qualified to comment on this I guess. I'm not a MOTT nor a Guardian not anything but a student of Modern Arnis..
I remember in the 80's Professor doing single stick sparring..
you know..#1 high low high low #2 buttpunyo striking #3 clearing Payong-Umbrella, #4 butt- punyo sweeping
#5 Slant & umbrella passing...then add a strike to immediate head counter and a counter to the counter..He used to call that counter to counter Tapi Tapi..and it fit inside of single stick sparring..

Hello There Bram,

Very nice comment and example. I guess that some of us Modern Arnis "long-timers" still rememeber this kind of thing that Professor taught in the early 1980's through the mid 1990's. I came on scene in 1982 as a white belt, studying under Don Zanghi. My training in Modern Arnis was through the local academy in Buffalo AND the seminars as well as camps were for additional intense training, specificly with Professor. I was lucky enough to have Modern Arnis AS MY ART, not merely the art within my original art!

You had a similar training situatiion, I believe, plus you also hosted camps and seminars for Professor. Therefore, you had more opportunities than most others who trained within the art to talk privately and over extended periods of time with the man, as did I. Hence you are aware of many of the various statements that he made and retracted as am I. So I think that I can say without being impolite to anyone, that there are many people who were told many things by Professor... it's simply a matter of which statement do you choose to believe!

An example that I will relate to our readers: I heard Professor promise to help a certin under-belt in Modern Arnis, to open his own school; he also stated that he would put up the operational money necessary to get the school stated AND that the school would serve as the international headquarters for the IMAF! We were at dinner in a private home with just 5 people present, beside myself and the potential new school operator. The school was never opened under the conditions promised!

Then of course we got to do as he did and change up from right to right to left to right..as long as we paid attention...
But always in interview, in class, in seminars..he used to say that having the FLOW was the key..FLOW is what Modern Arnis was about...
He;d show me something show me how it was different from something else then ask me could I see its all the same..
yes it confused me but it forced me to try to see it..
He told me and many people that he personally got the FLOW from the space between Redonda X movement and Sinawali...
yes. I know he may have said something else to others.. I don't want to make that an issue..Justthat I add to the comments of he was into the ability to FLOW.

Damn, Bram, you really are a Modern Arnis long-timer to know, remember and relate to that statement!

I never knew what a MOTT was till just before the Professor died..
I think its( Tapi Tapi) another way , a part of the era..part of that particular tme that Professor had found to teach FLOW..the ability to go with what happens within the space of action-reaction..
everyone grows and changes....He was changing wih thoe that were with him..He found new ways to expresshimself..its not better or worse than we all did before..

Amen to that, Brother Bram... preach on Brother....

We're all got part of the truth as we are able to see it and express it.. sorry for the long rant..
Its only my opinion and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes and I have stuck to the main ORIGINAL thread..

When speaking the truth, do not apologize. Professor was dynamic not static in his thinking and approach to this art that he called Modern Arnis. He was growing and changing, he was refining and re-defining the art because he viewed it as a living creation, not a static art-form to be mimicked by rote and numbers!

There are a great number of people who knew the icon and seminar leader, the stick magician! These folks have lost a leader and guide through the maze that they call Modern Arnis. Some of these people are claiming leadership positions and as Dan Anderson has stated so well... they should lead or get out of the way (paraphrased, not quoted). I fully agree with that idea and in fact I am not looking to any of those folks to lead me anywhere!
I will follow my own destiny as I was doing before I met Professor and as I have since I quite the IMAF.

Professor and I remained friends, we talked from time to time and he never discourged me from following my own path. He told me more than once "Make money and be happy." So I am very delighted to see a post such as yours because it goes back to what we were taught early on by Professor. Now for the bigger question, how many of the people who studied under Professor can actually apply the lessons?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 
OP
Cruentus

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
Palusat, DoctorB, and Bram:

All great posts! Thank you for words of experience, and bringing this thread back on track. I'm Irish and in my early 20's, so that means I'm Hot-headed and I don't know s**t!:D This would explain why I exploded, and got off track myself!

I am just glad to hear other people's take on things in the Modern Arnis world, whether I agree or not, so long as it stay's open minded.

Bram: I remember that drill, I think, but I was about 14 or 15 when I did it! (wow, memories!)

DoctorB: It was good to hear your input. I saw you in Buffalo; I really ment to introduce myself after the 'talk,' but I was getting ready for My students Black Belt test. I was a little nervous and extremely hyped up; almost like it was my test! :CTF:
I was partnering with him for it. I am proud to say that I now have my 1st Black-Belt student!

I had hoped to introduce myself to you later, or the next day, but I didn't see you, unfortunatily. Sorry about that. I'm sure I'll see you at future events, however.

:cool: :asian:
 

Dan Anderson

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Messages
1,846
Reaction score
58
Location
Bridal Veil, Oregon
Palisut -
Unfortunately, most people in the martial arts have been innundated with tales of succession and tradition and who the master picks to be the leader of the clan. It is something we must all contend with on a personal level. I personally believe that each one of us honestly wants to follow what our teacher intended. The interesting thing is that Prof. Presas had different relationships with each of us, some more personal and some more technical. I have spoken to many of the long timers and we are following what he had intended for each of us. Dr. Shea follows what RP intended for him. Tim Hartman follows what RP intended for him. (insert name here) follows wht RP intended for him/her. I am not so certain that the issue is knowledge and power although it certainly looks that way. RP was a complex individual and some things are not easily clarified now that he is gone. Your last statement was beautifully said.

Dr.B -
I remember RP's constant emphasis on the flow and use it to guide my training.

Paul -
Getting a student to Black Belt gives you goose bumps, doesn't it.

Mao -
It looks like the written word on a page has done its usual thing. It doesn't give intonation, inflection and intention. Either privately email me with you phone number or you can get my phone number from my website. Let's talk. I believe we probably have far more in common than in opposition.

Dan Anderson
 

Rich Parsons

A Student of Martial Arts
Founding Member
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Oct 13, 2001
Messages
16,165
Reaction score
681
Location
Michigan
Originally posted by Mao

... I hope your at the Mich. camp.
Mao

M.A.O.,

If I am in the country in May, I would like
to stop by and say hi, and introduce myself.
I hope my Work schedule allows for this.

Have a nice day

Rich
 

Mao

Black Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2001
Messages
527
Reaction score
0
Location
Ohio
Rich Parsons,
And you would be welcome. Perhaps we'll see you then.

mao
 
B

BRAM

Guest
A couple of more thoughts on Tapi Tapi and on its place on Modern Arnis...
I just watched the first 9 volumes of Professor Presas' last video series on Mano DeTranka: Tapi Tapi...
Basics were taught: stances, Abecidario, Corridas, Numerado...then Block check counter, then block check conter and counter to the counter..or Corridas into Tapi..then locking then disarms...
It all looked like the old days..Then the basic single stick sparring was taught right to right-left to right as the connecting bridge..
and the Tapi Tapi Drills became the glue that held the OLD stuff together..
It reinforced my original thoughts that Professor Presas found a method for tying all of the material together into one long continuous drill.. a wonderful never ending drill that encompasses most of the library of Modern Arnis.many times on the video he states you must learn to make your own Tapi Tapi, to insert whatever you know..to in other words learn Flow..
Learn by rote, add new set skills and then learn to add the what ifs..till the what ifs are standard and there are no suprizes...
Remember spinning throw inside and out? palm press to floor?
of course standing centerlock? Compress elbow? passing inside and out? application of Palis-Palis? of course we all do..
Do I need more time to actualize this version of Tapi Tapi? yes..
Do I know a bunch of it? yup..
Will I get it as good as the MOTTs..and those they teach? I guess if i play enough..
Will the MOTTs get as good as the old guys at slam n jam? I guess with enough play time..
Seems like we have stuff to share..
Stuff we all do..
stuff we all learned from the Professor...

I know Tim knows the Tapi Tapi of the tapes very very well..I can only guess that his students are as up to speed on all of it

I guess I have some stuff to learn..
Thanks for all of you sharing & giving me a chance..

Bram
 
D

DoctorB

Guest
Originally posted by BRAM

A couple of more thoughts on Tapi Tapi and on its place on Modern Arnis...
I just watched the first 9 volumes of Professor Presas' last video series on Mano DeTranka: Tapi Tapi...
Basics were taught: stances, Abecidario, Corridas, Numerado...then Block check counter, then block check conter and counter to the counter..or Corridas into Tapi..then locking then disarms...

Hmmmm.... Professor teaching stances... oh wow, now that is a change from the times I was with him through 1994, it sounds like he had gone back to basics and resetting the curriculum... was he in the process of moving away from the "art within your art" approach? Sounds like to me, but of course we will never know for sure!

It all looked like the old days..Then the basic single stick sparring was taught right to right-left to right as the connecting bridge..
and the Tapi Tapi Drills became the glue that held the OLD stuff together..

Yeah, makes sense and it helps to explain why there are some difficulties with people taight in different eras of Modern Arnis training.

It reinforced my original thoughts that Professor Presas found a method for tying all of the material together into one long continuous drill.. a wonderful never ending drill that encompasses most of the library of Modern Arnis.many times on the video he states you must learn to make your own Tapi Tapi, to insert whatever you know..to in other words learn Flow..
Learn by rote, add new set skills and then learn to add the what ifs..till the what ifs are standard and there are no suprizes...
Remember spinning throw inside and out? palm press to floor?
of course standing centerlock? Compress elbow? passing inside and out? application of Palis-Palis? of course we all do..

Sounds to me like you are on the right path, Bram. One of the bigger difficulties that I see within this entire discussion is the problem of rote replication vs. open thinking and movements.
On a copuple of ocassions I have had people get upset with me when I went outside the "drill" and was told, "You can't do that, it's not part of the drill!" I remember all of things that you mentioned and I still use them, plus a number of other things from different areas of the arts.

Do I need more time to actualize this version of Tapi Tapi? yes..
Do I know a bunch of it? yup..
Will I get it as good as the MOTTs..and those they teach? I guess if i play enough..
Will the MOTTs get as good as the old guys at slam n jam? I guess with enough play time..
Seems like we have stuff to share..
Stuff we all do..
stuff we all learned from the Professor...

Damn it, Bram, would you stop acting like a committed student of the arts! Your thinking is going to upset some people and I really do not want to reqad through a lot of posts about how wrong you are wwhen you do not follow the drills and teachings of Professor, exactly as taught by Professor... how dare you consider and advocating making the art fit yourself ;-)


I know Tim knows the Tapi Tapi of the tapes very very well..I can only guess that his students are as up to speed on all of it

I guess I have some stuff to learn..
Thanks for all of you sharing & giving me a chance..

In reality and being serious for just a moment, there is stuff for all of us to learn.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 

Latest Discussions

Top