The State of Karate

[KenpoVzla]

What is the state of Karate today?

After looking at the video above from Sensei Jadi Tention, I have to say I agree, the idea applies also to tae kwon do or any other school martial arts school for that matter that may be following that trend.

Its pretty irritating nowadays when you say that you practice karate and have people not even think you're tough at all. You have to almost prove yourself to be considered tough.

Now I may be very young and have not seen martial arts in the 70s and 80s, but from what I hear, guys back then practicing Karate, were considered very tough without having to prove anything.

What is your opinion on the state of Karate today?

 

[TigerLove]

I agree with him.

I understand it's an art, but let's not water it down so much.

Karate and Taekwondo are first on my mind.

 

[dancingalone]

All I can do is affect the people within my own sphere of influence. People who watch or participate in one of my lessons or classes come away with a favorable impression of what karate training can be. I try not worry about what people who I have never met think, realizing of course that ego is still occasionally a flaw of mine.

 

[seasoned]

There was a time when you took a martial art for one reason. In this day and age, it now means many things to many people. This is truly a time when martial arts is for everyone, and has much to offer. The dojo of the 60s and 70s got away with a lot of things that they would be sued for now a days, that was then and this is now. I think you have to shop around more, but in the long run you will find what you are looking for. :asian:

 

[Cirdan]

Why is it important to be considered tough?

 

[scottie]

Why is it important to be considered tough?

that's my thought. I don't care what people think. I take from a guy fought in the early 70's he is 55 years old and just last night he almost knocked me out. before that we did katas for almost an hour. see for me it is all about the art. I have a gun to protect myself. We have watered it down over the years no doubt. this guy just sounds like another mixed martial sportest

 

[Tez3]

that's my thought. I don't care what people think. I take from a guy fought in the early 70's he is 55 years old and just last night he almost knocked me out. before that we did katas for almost an hour. see for me it is all about the art. I have a gun to protect myself. We have watered it down over the years no doubt. this guy just sounds like another mixed martial sportest

So now doing MMA is an insult?
As i have asked before, I do karate kata, it has takedowns, ground fighting, kick punches, locks, armbars etc in it, so it's an art but when I do exactly the same in MMA it isn't and you use the word MMAer as an insult?

 

[dancingalone]

Why is it important to be considered tough?

It important to an extent since it is a MARTIAL art. You don't want people to think of karate as an activity like badminton do you? Perhaps a better example would be tai chi chuan. People who practice tai chi know that it can be a very effective fighting system if your teacher can transmit it to you that way. Unfortunately the bulk of people who have heard of tai chi think of it as a slow moving exercise for old people.

 

[Cirdan]

It important to an extent since it is a MARTIAL art. You don't want people to think of karate as an activity like badminton do you? Perhaps a better example would be tai chi chuan. People who practice tai chi know that it can be a very effective fighting system if your teacher can transmit it to you that way. Unfortunately the bulk of people who have heard of tai chi think of it as a slow moving exercise for old people.

Well to be fair Karate and badminton is beginning to look awefully similar in many places already.

I do a bit of Tai Chi too. Now if people think it is crap it is only an advantage for me should I ever get into a fight with someone

The general public is, and will always be, clueless when it comes to the nature of MA. What matters is what you train, how you train and the people you train it with. What others think... pffff

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It important to an extent since it is a MARTIAL art. You don't want people to think of karate as an activity like badminton do you?

Yes. That would be good. Far better to be underrated.

Perhaps a better example would be tai chi chuan. People who practice tai chi know that it can be a very effective fighting system if your teacher can transmit it to you that way. Unfortunately the bulk of people who have heard of tai chi think of it as a slow moving exercise for old people.

Also good.

It may be good for an art to be known for this or that attribute, but it does me no personal good whatsoever. I've been asked by coworkers "Karate? Isn't that for kids?" Hey, that's fine with me. I tell them it's a great way to stay in shape and help with my flexibility and they seem satisfied with that. I'm just as glad they don't think I know Dim Mak or eleventy-dozen ways to rip their living heart from their chests with my bare hands and show it to them before eating it.

I do what I do for my own reasons. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks of karate or of me taking karate. In fact, the less regard they hold it in, the better for me.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

There was a time when you took a martial art for one reason.

I absolutely agree with everything else, but I think this statement ^^^ was only true of certain guys in certain dojos in certain cities in the US at certain times and perhaps in other countries.

I like to read the old articles in US newspapers about martial arts at various times, like the late 1800's, the early 1920's, and the 1950's, when for various reasons it attracted public notice. Many were the judo clubs and so on that were primarily for 'health' reasons, or for further study of 'the orient' and so on. Not all were for bad boys who liked to kick the hell out of people. Perhaps certain karate dojos at a particular time...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

that's my thought. I don't care what people think. I take from a guy fought in the early 70's he is 55 years old and just last night he almost knocked me out. before that we did katas for almost an hour. see for me it is all about the art. I have a gun to protect myself. We have watered it down over the years no doubt. this guy just sounds like another mixed martial sportest

I am fortunate. My dojo has not apparently gone through much change. One of the blackbelts in my dojo is 69 years old, a biker and tough as they come. Also a sweet guy who would do anything for you. When we practice self-defense techniques and I'm across from him, I know I'm going to end up with black-and-blue arms and legs. He just hits like a ton of bricks and feels no pain; he doesn't even know he does it. He's not wailing on me, he just does a 'tap' punch and it feels like it's going in my chest and coming out my spine. The dude has 'chi' if you know what I mean. He's been training under my sensei since the 1970's. The training may have changed some, but I think I benefit because not much has changed. I'm told sensei has 'gotten easier' on students in recent years. Frankly, I'm grateful; I have to go to work in the morning!

 

[scottie]

So now doing MMA is an insult?
As i have asked before, I do karate kata, it has takedowns, ground fighting, kick punches, locks, armbars etc in it, so it's an art but when I do exactly the same in MMA it isn't and you use the word MMAer as an insult?

the ground fighting in kata is an argument for another Thread.

I was not trying to use it as an insult. The guy was dogging kata. I was talking about the way most "MMAer"s as well as other sportest take kata out of the art so that they can train more for sport. (my first Sensei is one of those. He is my best friend. It's ok he is not going to karate hell. I just don't agree with him)
I went to this guys website. He is a World Class Point Fighter. His Black Belt is in TKD.

If you are a MMA person more power to you, have fun with that. You are more than likely in better shape than me. I was not trying to offend or insult anyone. Kata and karate from what I have been taught are for self defence. If you are attacked, that is the way I teach it. So no it is not the same as when you do it in a sporting event. Still effective i hope. I just don't see it as the same in my peanut brain. Please understand that I am talking about only my opinion we all know what opinions are like and that everyone has one.

He is right about Karate being watered down, and I would even venture to say that the compared to how most people in MMA train some Schools have become watered down but it all goes back to money I think. :asian:

 

[scottie]

I am fortunate. My dojo has not apparently gone through much change. One of the blackbelts in my dojo is 69 years old, a biker and tough as they come. Also a sweet guy who would do anything for you. When we practice self-defense techniques and I'm across from him, I know I'm going to end up with black-and-blue arms and legs. He just hits like a ton of bricks and feels no pain; he doesn't even know he does it. He's not wailing on me, he just does a 'tap' punch and it feels like it's going in my chest and coming out my spine. The dude has 'chi' if you know what I mean. He's been training under my sensei since the 1970's. The training may have changed some, but I think I benefit because not much has changed. I'm told sensei has 'gotten easier' on students in recent years. Frankly, I'm grateful; I have to go to work in the morning!

My Sensei is the most nice guy in the world. We spar to practice technique. He would never try to hurt anyone, but man I would have not wanted to have been the guy he met in the ring.

 

[dancingalone]

Well to be fair Karate and badminton is beginning to look awefully similar in many places already.

I do a bit of Tai Chi too. Now if people think it is crap it is only an advantage for me should I ever get into a fight with someone

The general public is, and will always be, clueless when it comes to the nature of MA. What matters is what you train, how you train and the people you train it with. What others think... pffff

I really think this is a modern outlook. I find it hard to believe that guys like Choki Motobu if pressed to demonstrate the effectiveness of their art would have turned their cheek and walked away.

If you value something and think it can be of worth to others, you should promote it and spread it. This is one of the primary reasons why I teach. I don't hoard it to myself and think 'Oh it's your loss if you don't understand it'. I am an advocate for my brand of karate. It may not be for everyone, but I'll be darned if I let anyone in my presence detract or impugn on my art in any way. This doesn't mean I fight people obviously - but at a minimum I will speak positively about karate and I will challenge any negative assumptions people might have.

 

[Cirdan]

I am starting to hate the word "effective", it seems every style nazi loves it and abuses it as often as humanly possible. I prefer using the word "functional" since it doesn`t ring quite as bad to my ears at least for now.

I like teaching people who want to learn and I like to discuss the arts with people with open minds. However I am not the Karate police so if someone insists he knows the deadly art of fvk-y-up and can take on fifty Ka-rotty blackbelts with lazers, I`ll just tell him he is completely right. Why bother? The people who really want to train will find their way to a good dojo anyway. The ones who fall for cheap talk and markering either wake up or dont in which case they deserve what they get.

Spreading the arts is good of course, but it takes time and is best done with hard work instead of hard words.

 

[dancingalone]

I am starting to hate the word "effective", it seems every style nazi loves it and abuses it as often as humanly possible. I prefer using the word "functional" since it doesn`t ring quite as bad to my ears at least for now.

Use either adjective. It doesn't change the meaning. I would use effective because it is straight to the point and I have no such negative connotation personally.

I like teaching people who want to learn and I like to discuss the arts with people with open minds. However I am not the Karate police so if someone insists he knows the deadly art of fvk-y-up and can take on fifty Ka-rotty blackbelts with lazers, I`ll just tell him he is completely right. Why bother? The people who really want to train will find their way to a good dojo anyway. The ones who fall for cheap talk and markering either wake up or dont in which case they deserve what they get.

As I said, I am an advocate for my karate. Advocacy means considerably more action than just adopting a laissez faire attitude towards promoting karate. If you are not an advocate, that is fine. However, there is nothing wrong with people who do want to project or publicize a high standard of karate, and I would argue that the whole Mr. Miyagi sense of 'humility' (for lack of a better word) is in fact a modern construction.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I really think this is a modern outlook. I find it hard to believe that guys like Choki Motobu if pressed to demonstrate the effectiveness of their art would have turned their cheek and walked away.

Some might consider Choki Motubu a modern martial artist. He may have been an earlier Okinawan practitioner...

If you value something and think it can be of worth to others, you should promote it and spread it.

Like those guys who come to my door dressed in suits and carrying newsletters from their church?

This is one of the primary reasons why I teach. I don't hoard it to myself and think 'Oh it's your loss if you don't understand it'. I am an advocate for my brand of karate. It may not be for everyone, but I'll be darned if I let anyone in my presence detract or impugn on my art in any way. This doesn't mean I fight people obviously - but at a minimum I will speak positively about karate and I will challenge any negative assumptions people might have.

That's cool. My perspective is more that of a student than one with a vested interest in maintaining interest in a given style or art. I like Isshin-Ryu, obviously. I love my dojo. I'll tell anyone who asks, and I tease online here about "Isshin-Ryu is the best!" But seriously, if someone I meet thinks karate is for kids, or TKD and Okinawan Karate are the same, or whatever, it's no skin off my nose, and frankly, I'd rather have them believing I'm indulging in some mid-life fantasy than seriously interested in the mental, spiritual, historical, and physical aspects of the art.

 

[dancingalone]

Some might consider Choki Motubu a modern martial artist. He may have been an earlier Okinawan practitioner...

Eh? Care to explain further? Are you just referring to that fact that Motobu lived during the last century? I don't understand where you are going with that statement otherwise.

Like those guys who come to my door dressed in suits and carrying newsletters from their church?

Sure, it can be. Is evangelism not a form of advocacy? Not that I go around knocking on doors and passing out karate pamphlets...

But seriously, if someone I meet thinks karate is for kids, or TKD and Okinawan Karate are the same, or whatever, it's no skin off my nose, and frankly, I'd rather have them believing I'm indulging in some mid-life fantasy than seriously interested in the mental, spiritual, historical, and physical aspects of the art.

And that's fine. Your choice. I merely am speaking out because I felt a certain undercurrent in this thread where it seemed the implicit opinion is that there's something wrong with defending and promoting karate as an EFFECTIVE fighting system.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Eh? Care to explain further? Are you just referring to that fact that Motobu lived during the last century? I don't understand where you are going with that statement otherwise.

I mean that sure, Choki Motobu was a serious bad-*** who did not pass up opportunities to fight for the honor of karate, and it appears that his concept of karate was strictly for fighting. However, Okinawan karate is not the beginning of martial arts, and it seems to me that some early Okinawan practitioners absorbed what they wanted and left out some of the other aspects of what was being taught in China. I say this not to disparage, but simply to point out that the history of karate may be rooted in fighting effectiveness, but the history of martial arts in general may not be.

Sure, it can be. Is evangelism not a form of advocacy? Not that I go around knocking on doors and passing out karate pamphlets...

I think about how fondly I feel about people who like to bend my ear about their particular flavor of religion...

And that's fine. Your choice. I merely am speaking out because I felt a certain undercurrent in this thread where it seemed the implicit opinion is that there's something wrong with defending and promoting karate as an EFFECTIVE fighting system.

Nope, nothing wrong with it. I just a) don't feel that need and b) would actually prefer it if everyone thinks I'm a wimp and my skills are useless Power Ranger nonsense.