the sensory experience of Qi.

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Leigh Blyth

Leigh Blyth

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I'm struggling to understand why you want to be CONSCIOUSLY,aware, of your position in space , that's what todderlers and drunks and learner driver have, advanced movement skill happen once your subconsciously aware of your position, and you no longer have to plan not to fall over or walk into walls or drive into lamp posts ! your subconscious portion of the brain working far faster than your conscious portion

I can see that's it's useful as a remediation exercise, but its not where you want to be long term


A. I think the problem with drunks and learner drivers is that they don't have conscious proprioception. Toddlers have their natural abilities before too much life gets in the way.

B. I get the thinking that subconscious is better, yes it we could function perfectly on auto-pilot that would be great. But having the ability to be aware of what is actually happening can only be a good thing IMO, when auto-pilot isn't working well. If you are perfectly balanced with a full range of movement and able to achieve true alignment with your body then that's great, but how many can really achieve that? Remedial exercise/ self improvement??
 

jobo

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A. I think the problem with drunks and learner drivers is that they don't have conscious proprioception. Toddlers have their natural abilities before too much life gets in the way.

B. I get the thinking that subconscious is better, yes it we could function perfectly on auto-pilot that would be great. But having the ability to be aware of what is actually happening can only be a good thing IMO, when auto-pilot isn't working well. If you are perfectly balanced with a full range of movement and able to achieve true alignment with your body then that's great, but how many can really achieve that? Remedial exercise/ self improvement??
they ( drunks and toddlers) have to have CONSCIOUS awareness or they fall over, have you never seen a drunk swaying whilst they consciously try to keep their ballance, or the same with someone trying to balance on an inch wide beam, the corrections are in the concious mind when they get use to the balance of the beam, they can just walk, whilst the subconscious mind does the correction for them.

as I say, I can see it as a rehabilitation / improvement tool, but the aim must always be to not be consciously doing things,as that's where performance is improved markedly,

I see where you are coming from, I used to do a lot of mindfullness meditation, one of the exercises was to " communicate " consciously with each and ever part of your body, that's a way of improving your nervous system and your ability to relax muscles, I could feel separately each and every one of my vertebra, not sure if this has any bearing on my control of my body, but out was a neat trick that put me to sleep

I've also been through a process of consciously adjusting my posture, now I don't have to, it does it all on its own
 
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Gerry Seymour

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and to know the vertical you have to know where the exact centre of the planet is, there is no vertical with out out being in relation to an object out side of you, and you don't need to know the shape of the surface in order to balance or blind people couldn't walk
Technically, that's true, but proprioception is about relative location of the body. As for shape of the surface, yes, you do need to know that. Do you assume blind people have no sense of pressure in their feet (which is far more reliable for balancing than our eyesight, or we'd have to look straight down all the time)?

You know, this all started because you made a statement that appeared to have an incorrect usage of proprioception. If you'd just said something like, "Wasn't talking only about proprioception, but also about _____" this would be done already.

it's was buka that said balance was an example of proprioception in action, but I notice you're not bombarding him with your fallacious arguments !
And proprioception is involved in balance. But it isn't the totality of balance. My first post in this area was a response to you apparently saying basically that kata didn't develop proprioception because walls. Which is nonsense.

You're just banging on saying nothing really useful. I suspect there's nothing informative to come, so we're probably done here.
 

jobo

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Technically, that's true, but proprioception is about relative location of the body. As for shape of the surface, yes, you do need to know that. Do you assume blind people have no sense of pressure in their feet (which is far more reliable for balancing than our eyesight, or we'd have to look straight down all the time)?

You know, this all started because you made a statement that appeared to have an incorrect usage of proprioception. If you'd just said something like, "Wasn't talking only about proprioception, but also about _____" this would be done already.

And proprioception is involved in balance. But it isn't the totality of balance. My first post in this area was a response to you apparently saying basically that kata didn't develop proprioception because walls. Which is nonsense.

You're just banging on saying nothing really useful. I suspect there's nothing informative to come, so we're probably done here.
I did say that, in my first reply to you, I said" I may be conflating it with other sences" or something very much like that.

proprioception is of no use to you with out tying it to your other senses, unless I suppose your floating in the vacuum of space, you've still not correct buka for saying balance was an example of proprioception in action, as your point is that every thing else that makes balance possible has nothing to do with it, you just target me for harassment
 

Gerry Seymour

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I did say that, in my first reply to you, I said" I may be conflating it with other sences" or something very much like that.

proprioception is of no use to you with out tying it to your other senses, unless I suppose your floating in the vacuum of space, you've still not correct buka for saying balance was an example of proprioception in action, as your point is that every thing else that makes balance possible has nothing to do with it, you just target me for harassment
Yes, and you immediately tried to "correct" me, never quite getting it right. You didn't just say, "maybe not the right terms, here's what I mean". Mind you, when folks have done EXACTLY that with you in the past, you often stuck with the original word they used, arguing about the original word they used even when they said it wasn't the usage they intended, so I'm not surprised it didn't occur to you that might be a useful statement.
 

jobo

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Yes, and you immediately tried to "correct" me, never quite getting it right. You didn't just say, "maybe not the right terms, here's what I mean". Mind you, when folks have done EXACTLY that with you in the past, you often stuck with the original word they used, arguing about the original word they used even when they said it wasn't the usage they intended, so I'm not surprised it didn't occur to you that might be a useful statement.
you are manifestly wrong about much of what you've said in this discussion, whilst I admitted I may have over stated a point, you've continues to bluster on regardless of the increasing stupidity of your statements, but bizarrely try and paint me as the villain of the peice wh I admitted my error at the first opportunity
 

Gerry Seymour

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you are manifestly wrong about much of what you've said in this discussion, whilst I admitted I may have over stated a point, you've continues to bluster on regardless of the increasing stupidity of your statements, but bizarrely try and paint me as the villain of the peice wh I admitted my error at the first opportunity
And now you're just insulting randomly. I'm done trying to help you correct your misstatement. We're done.
 

Buka

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This is from the Encyclopedia of Neuroscience -

Proprioception

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Proprioception, or kinesthesia, is the sense that lets us perceive the location, movement, and action of parts of the body. It encompasses a complex of sensations, including perception of joint position and movement, muscle force, and effort. These sensations arise from signals of sensory receptors in the muscle, skin, and joints, and from central signals related to motor output. Proprioception enables us to judge limb movements and positions, force, heaviness, stiffness, and viscosity. It combines with other senses to locate external objects relative to the body and contributes to body image. Proprioception is closely tied to the control of movement.

Everybody happy now, kids?
 

Starjumper7

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This thread started out to be about chi and ended up being about Proprioception.

There is new research on the much ignored fascia in the body, and the new research says that it is the nerves in the fascia that inform you of the position of arms, legs, etc.

Proprioception is NOT chi, and it has nothing to do with it.

Chi is energy, plain and simple. It has aspects of electrical and magnetic energy, and more. The very strange thing about it is how you can control chi inside or outside your body with your mind.
 

EdwardA

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Can you describe the sensation/feeling?

Visuals?

I was involved in specific internal investigation (meditation) at a very young age. Initially it was a discovery of self-honesty and inner confict. Started at 9 years old. When I started in MA at 14, it went in some added directions. Here's one. I had the idea that if I visually removed what was in my mind moving from point A to point B, that might effect my speed. Many pro athletes use visualization techniques these days, but I had the idea in 1971, and it was more like I was removing something, not changing it. I personally think it made me faster, but I ended up with another aspect I didn't realize till a few years later. When I feel a certain level of threat, I go into some sort of mental zone. Everything goes dark. I have no idea of what I'm doing or going to do. Its almost like I'm not there, and I only get glempses of what happened, that I can piece together later. All of my years of training just happen. I come back to normal conciecness when the guy is down and out....but while I'm in that zone I don't even see, just glimpses and only later after it's done. It doesn't happen unless somebody crosses a line I can't define very well.

It didn't happen overnight of course...closer to a decade.

I can't put it into text with lots of detail. It would take pages and pages.
 
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Oily Dragon

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My PhD was about proprioception - The Monoamingeric Control of Gamma Motoneurones.

Feel free to ask me anything about them!
"What are the pyrimidal tracts?"

You've got to know this gag, it's the only bit I know that ever involved motor neurons.

 

Gyakuto

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"What are the pyrimidal tracts?"

You've got to know this gag, it's the only bit I know that ever involved motor neurons.

Ohhhh匈 was looking forward to telling you all about them!
 

Oily Dragon

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Ohhhh匈 was looking forward to telling you all about them!
You still can enlighten me.

The snotty dad was wrong right? It really is "pyramidal" like John Astin says, not "pyramidial" like Mr. Froeger claims.

And he got upper motor neuron wrong. If he got both wrong, that's even funnier. I've wondered this since the 1980s.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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@Buka nice illustration of proprioception.

As I've become consciously aware of the relative positions of the main muscles of movement (pelvic floor, rectus abdominis, gluteus maximus, rectus femoris, trapezius) I can see/sense/visualise my body in my mind. The sparkles, the lights, the flashes - a representation of the condition of my body this feels like the mysterious Qi to me.

A flow, an energy, does that sound familiar to anyone more experienced with such matters? The "internal martial arts" based on feeling the main muscles and experiencing this?

Very hard to put into words which is why I hope others can help!
Start with the bottom of the feet, that is your most common interface with the earth. Its you in relation to the earth, and you in relation to you. We live in a world where the first force we feel is down, so we have to lift the inside up. Your feet, specifically the bottom of the foot is the place to start. Try to feel the fourth toe. Its a dead zone for most people. Seek out those dead zones. Feel the inside move the outside. Feel the bottom move the top. Feel the back move the front.
 

Gyakuto

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You still can enlighten me.

The snotty dad was wrong right? It really is "pyramidal" like John Astin says, not "pyramidial" like Mr. Froeger claims.

And he got upper motor neuron wrong. If he got both wrong, that's even funnier. I've wondered this since the 1980s.
Motor neurones originate in the motor cortex of the brain (their cell bodies making up its grey matter圭ell bodies are where the computing goes on). These send their axons (their wiring) down through the the body of the brain, through the brainstem and to the spinal cord (theses are called the pyramidal tracts) These are the upper motoneurones. In the spinal cord, they connect (via a synapse) to a very short interneurone which only traverses the spinal cord and synapses with another motoneurone which leaves the spinal cord (via the ventral root) and goes to the muscle it supplies. This is the lower motoneurone! So upper motoneurone is brain to spinal cord, lower motoneurone is spinal cord to muscle.

This is why the person in the clip, inexplicably dressed as a pig, was wrong with his answer.

Its fun to be talking about this stuff again
 

Gyakuto

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Start with the bottom of the feet, that is your most common interface with the earth. Its you in relation to the earth, and you in relation to you. We live in a world where the first force we feel is down, so we have to lift the inside up. Your feet, specifically the bottom of the foot is the place to start. Try to feel the fourth toe. Its a dead zone for most people. Seek out those dead zones. Feel the inside move the outside. Feel the bottom move the top. Feel the back move the front.
My fourth toe is a real sensory dead zone as it doesnt touch the ground! It is very small and has a thin, blade-like nail that grows vertically out of my toe!
 
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