the science of "milling"

[hoshin1600]

so i recently was looking at Muay Boran and noticed that they use milling with the hands. this is where you rotate or circle the hands somewhat like a windmill. i know that it was used in old school western boxing as well.
so i am interested in the purpose and strategies of this hand action. obviously it fell to the wayside with boxing but it must have had a good reason since it show up in other fighting arts.

 

[Tez3]

I know 'milling' from the military use of it notably in the Parachute Regiment training. It's not a test of skill but of determination and bravery. Recruits are put up against each other.
The bald headed Para PTI instructor is Sandy Geddes, MMA fighter, kick boxer and one of our fitness coaches. Known as the Guv'nor' when he left the army he had a hill out on the training area named after him so that generations of recruits would still feel the pain!

 

[Flying Crane]

We have something that we do not think of as milling, but might be mistaken as such by an onlooker.

We use several long-arm punching methods that can come from different directions, including over the top.

The specific motion of the punch is less important on a foundational level. Rather, we are training to fully rotate the body from one side to the other, in support of our theory of full-body engagement in our punches. We practice this rotation with a number of different types of punches.

The punches can then be done in rapid succession, but more likely would be mixed with other punches and likely would not look directly like milling.

But the idea behind it is massive power gained from a full body engagement, from the feet on up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

this is where you rotate or circle the hands somewhat like a windmill.

If a punch is

- just a punch, this may happen.
- a punch followed by a pull, this will never happen.

When you train at a strategy, you should also train how to counter that strategy. How to prevent your opponent's arms from swinging like a windmill?

It makes

- no sense that you can land 100 punches on your opponent's head while your opponent also can land 100 punches on your head.
- great sense that you can land 1 punch on your opponent's head while your opponent cannot land any punch on your head.

 

[hoshin1600]

to be more specific i am wondering about milling when not actually punching.
shown in this clip at about 1:50

is it an extension of rotational punching, like what Tez posted and as often seen in wing chun? or is is something different?

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah. Well then. I would only suspect that the constant movement is meant to create distraction.

Beyond that, I got nuthin.

 

[Kababayan]

I used to use something similar when I did tournament fighting. If I am understand the technique that you are referring to, I would do inward circles with both hands. One would confuse while the other would strike the side of the head. I wouldn't constantly circle; It was more of a quick one-two.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

@lklawson can probably offer some insight into the purpose of milling in old-school bare-knuckle boxing.

 

[hoshin1600]

@lklawson can probably offer some insight into the purpose of milling in old-school bare-knuckle boxing.

question for you Tony,, i know this video clip is only Wai-kru, but i have seen Muay Boran practitioners milling as they practice, does modern Muay Thai styles still do it? and if so what is the logic behind using it.. i have my own ideas on it but i want to hear from those who have more experience.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

question for you Tony,, i know this video clip is only Wai-kru, but i have seen Muay Boran practitioners milling as they practice, does modern Muay Thai styles still do it? and if so what is the logic behind using it.. i have my own ideas on it but i want to hear from those who have more experience.

You can probably find examples in the Muay Thai ring if you look hard enough, but it’s not very common. I was never taught to do it in my Muay Thai classes (except for the wai kru, which is a ritual rather than an example of fighting technique).

 

[pdg]

to be more specific i am wondering about milling when not actually punching.
shown in this clip at about 1:50

is it an extension of rotational punching, like what Tez posted and as often seen in wing chun? or is is something different?

My interpretation of this is that it's primarily a method to hide telegraphing your punches, and has a secondary purpose of increasing acceleration.

A lot of people will pull their fist back or down slightly to "load up" for a punch, which may increase the power slightly, but also increases the time taken and is a massive tell - if you're milling your opponent doesn't know which movement is the loading or on which side.

As for acceleration, it's always easier if the thing (in this case your arm and fist) is already moving rather than at a relative standstill.

You do still see it - in one form or another to varying degrees - across many styles/fighters. Some will "paw" at the air, some will be constantly lifting up on the balls of their feet and shifting stance slightly - at some point the paw will become a punch and the heel lift will become a kick.

 

[Danny T]

'Old School Boxing' was called Milling. A fight was a Mill or a Milling.
It is my understanding that the active guard of that time with the constant movement of the hands came to be called milling because it was a fighting or 'milling' guard.

As to the wai kru, it is a ritual of respect to the fighter's deity, instructor, camp, & family.
What is shown in the video above is the Ram Muay. Because they are performed with no break between them they are mistakenly understood as being the same but are two different rituals.
The Ram Muay is the 'Boxing Dance'. Ram meaning dance and Muay meaning boxing.
Most of the Ram Muay movements actually come from the bladed weapons used within Kabri kabrong.

 

[hoshin1600]

'Old School Boxing' was called Milling. A fight was a Mill or a Milling.
It is my understanding that the active guard of that time with the constant movement of the hands came to be called milling because it was a fighting or 'milling' guard.

As to the wai kru, it is a ritual of respect to the fighter's deity, instructor, camp, & family.
What is shown in the video above is the Ram Muay. Because they are performed with no break between them they are mistakenly understood as being the same but are two different rituals.
The Ram Muay is the 'Boxing Dance'. Ram meaning dance and Muay meaning boxing.
Most of the Ram Muay movements actually come from the bladed weapons used within Kabri kabrong.

my wife is from Thailand (born and raised) from her explanation she has a slightly different understanding. Wai is similar to Japanese Rei. it is a word that has a literal translation as respect or to pay respect but also has the double use as the physical action of a bow. so when you bow you "Wai someone". so in the begging of the clip we see the fighter kneel and bow so he is doing a Wai to his Kru (teacher) then he begins his dance of combative movements. she says that Ram means actions or movements. BUT these dance like movements are still considered a form of respect to the teacher so it is still Wai. the Wai Kru is the bow and the Ram because they are both done as a form of paying homage to ones teacher.
this makes sense to me, do you have a different understanding?

 

[Danny T]

my wife is from Thailand (born and raised) from her explanation she has a slightly different understanding. Wai is similar to Japanese Rei. it is a word that has a literal translation as respect or to pay respect but also has the double use as the physical action of a bow. so when you bow you "Wai someone". so in the begging of the clip we see the fighter kneel and bow so he is doing a Wai to his Kru (teacher) then he begins his dance of combative movements. she says that Ram means actions or movements. BUT these dance like movements are still considered a form of respect to the teacher so it is still Wai. the Wai Kru is the bow and the Ram because they are both done as a form of paying homage to ones teacher.
this makes sense to me, do you have a different understanding?

I am not Thai nor do I speak the language. My understanding comes from Ajarn Chai Sirisute who is Thai. My understanding through him is as I stated above in that the Wai Kru is one ritual and the Ram Muay is a second ritual done in sequence. It is often called the Wai Kru Ram Muay.

 

[hoshin1600]

My interpretation of this is that it's primarily a method to hide telegraphing your punches, and has a secondary purpose of increasing acceleration.

A lot of people will pull their fist back or down slightly to "load up" for a punch, which may increase the power slightly, but also increases the time taken and is a massive tell - if you're milling your opponent doesn't know which movement is the loading or on which side.

As for acceleration, it's always easier if the thing (in this case your arm and fist) is already moving rather than at a relative standstill.

You do still see it - in one form or another to varying degrees - across many styles/fighters. Some will "paw" at the air, some will be constantly lifting up on the balls of their feet and shifting stance slightly - at some point the paw will become a punch and the heel lift will become a kick.

i see it in a similar view.
i have been looking into the power generation of Muay Thai and a big part of how they throw punches comes from the shoulders. i have a theory that when the power is shoulder dependent then it will require a milling of the hands to mask the shoulder rotation. an experienced fighter will see the "tell" of the shoulder. so the milling is an attempt to hide the intention within the shoulder movements. this would be in a slight contrast to those that say milling is about the hands.

in Chinese and Okinawan styles i do not see milling of the hands. but the power generation comes from the hips. so circular milling of the hands would not apply and would actually be counterproductive.

i also think that as both western and Thai boxing became more of a sport rather then self defense, milling of the hands took up too much energy round after round. the return of masking the intention was outweighed by the conservation of energy.

 

[hoshin1600]

I am not Thai nor do I speak the language. My understanding comes from Ajarn Chai Sirisute who is Thai. My understanding through him is as I stated above in that the Wai Kru is one ritual and the Ram Muay is a second ritual done in sequence. It is often called the Wai Kru Ram Muay.

while my wife is a Thai citizen she is not a fighter and she never really liked fighting. it used to upset her as a kid that her sunday afternoons would be ruined because all her TV shows would be preempted by the local fights. lol now we laugh because she says .. she got (meaning me) what she didnt like.

 

[pdg]

within the shoulder movements. this would be in a slight contrast to those that say milling is about the hands

Certainly, it's not just the hands - it's almost impossible to mill hands (like an olde worlde boxer) without getting the shoulders going a bit too.

Likewise with the feet, the contraction of the calves and thighs sets up a kick, so if you make that a normal part of your movement half of your telegraphing is gone.