The Saber or Short Sword as Defensive Weapon Against Wildlife? I plan on doing some camping (pencil sketching tour) this fall in the Sierra Nevadas and I do NOT have the proficiency with a firearm to hit a moving target under stress that a mountain lion attack presents. However; I am thinking of carrying a short sword or saber or long pole as a defensive weapon against wildlife (attacks are becoming common in Northern California). Thoughts? Am I daft or wise?
The Saber or Short Sword as Defensive Weapon Against Wildlife?
- Thread starter Jonathan Randall
- Start date
Shaolinwind
2nd Black Belt
Jonathan Randall said:
Honestly, I think if you can slice up a mt. lion with a saber then that's not a bad thing to keep with ya.
Perhaps those who hunt could tell us, wouldn't the sound of a firearm alone scare kitty away, making a correct shot, or worse, melee combat un-necessary?
Shaolinwind said:
From a distance, yes, it can and does often. Unfortunately most attacks of which I am familiar with (a friend and numerous newspaper accounts) were cases where the individual was taken by surprise at close quarters. In those circumstances, only experienced hunters, special forces, LEO's or SWAT team members are likely to deploy and fire effectively, IMHO. I do know that many mountain men considered their bowie knives far more effective at close quarters than their pistols.
Thanks for the response - at least I know I'm not being crazy! LOL.
Shaolinwind
2nd Black Belt
Jonathan Randall said:
You know many mountain men? (*shutters as I think of Deliverance)
I was about to say the same thing... that or a .50 cal Desert Eagle. But uhh, learn how to shoot it first... the recoil is something else.pstarr said:
But a short sword or a saber?? You'd probably be better off with a machete but... if you're in lion country... a hand gun is definitely more effective at close range. Most important thing though... cats tend to go for the neck, if a cat is on you and got you down... curl up into the tightest ball you can make yourself into and protect that neck... it'll be the first thing it will go for.
But still... the chances of getting attacked are very slim. Unless the cat is starved (this time of year unlikely) or sick or injured in some way they'll run from you before you even get an idea that it's around. Make sure there's no blood (to a cat it means you're wounded and thus easy prey) and (sorry ladies) if you're with a woman that she isn't menstruating because that's also a scent that draws predators.
Just common sense. http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2004/01/09/61176.php?sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news
http://www.co.el-dorado.ca.us/ag/wildlife/mountainlion.html
http://www.lwwf.org/avoiding_conflicts_with_lions.htm
Your chances of being attacked are extremely slim. It's like worrying about flying. Yes, planes crash, but is that going to stop you from flying?
Here are a couple of things that will keep you safe in the wilderness, lions or no...
1. Travel in groups. Predators are less likely to take advantage of this situation.
2. Bring a dog. In lion country, their extrasensitive senses give you more warning.
3. Bring a knife. For one thing, its a darn good tool. What the heck else are you going to use a short sword for? It'll just be extra weight and you'll kick yourself for hauling in around in the end.
Here are a couple of things that will keep you safe in the wilderness, lions or no...
1. Travel in groups. Predators are less likely to take advantage of this situation.
2. Bring a dog. In lion country, their extrasensitive senses give you more warning.
3. Bring a knife. For one thing, its a darn good tool. What the heck else are you going to use a short sword for? It'll just be extra weight and you'll kick yourself for hauling in around in the end.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
So far I think upnorhtkyosa has given you the best advice. In my mind the knife would be more appropriate than a sword. I would think that a mountain lion is going to try and pounce on you, I don't think you'd be able to hold it at bay any more effectively with a sword than you could with a stick. If the cat were to get on top of you, you would still be able to defend yourself with the knife whereas the length of your sword would cause a problem in close quarters.
IMHO, the best thing for you to do is to visit the gun range before going or at least make sure you're in a group with someone that has and is carrying a pistol.
IMHO, the best thing for you to do is to visit the gun range before going or at least make sure you're in a group with someone that has and is carrying a pistol.
JR. Don't worry about it. Wild animals aren't going to bother you. They are more afraid of you than you are of them. Just take your pencil, paper, and camera, you will be fine.Jonathan Randall said:
Remember, animals attack for a very few reasons...
1. Hunger... need food.
2. Cornered, they feel that fleeing is not an option
3. Protecting their young
4. Surprised... Another words you got into their space before they knew it and they will fight then try to flee.
Most animals if going to attack give plenty of warning signs. For instance bears make a clicking sounds with their jaws. They don't stand up and roar like in the movies. They will just act agitated and make a popping sound (i suppose knashing their teeth).
No need to worry. Do take a first aid kit, gps, maps, and plenty of food and water. Don't leave food out (it will draw the bears, racoons, etc) or throw out left overs nearby. Don't put the food in your tent either (if in a tent), if they happen to smell it, you don't want an uninvited guest in your tent.
Oh, one other thing. If you pack it in.... Pack it out! Just leave foot prints.
Bigshadow said:
A lot of this used to be true, but can't be taken as gospel any more. Some of it just isn't true at all.
In the case of the mountain lion, they are an animal that generally prefers to ambush what it considers prey. There will be no warning at all, most times. While you may be able to defend yourself against the ambush, it will be after the fact: the cat will be on you, "death from above," so to speak, and in this case a knife probably is your best bet, and has been used successfully. The other instance where they might attack is if you surprise one on a kill-it will defend a kill territorially-here a pistol would be best as others advised.
Generally, mountain lions are shy of people, but encroaching development on their ranges-lions peregrinate-has caused some adaptation to human presence, as well as pressure in regards to food-where it was once believed that they commonly skedaddle at the sight of humans is becoming less and less true-especially in the Sierra Nevadas, which just see way too many people-this is a big part of the increase in attacks, along with drought conditions. It used to be thought that the noise of mountain bikes frightened and confused them, but mountain bikers have been ambushed as prey, as well as hikers-to the lions,we're just slow moving bipedal deer, or pigs,and easy prey. While the mountain lions in Northern New Mexico-yeah, I live in lion country-are somewhat rare and shy-I just don't go into the field without a good knife and a pistol-it's just common sense.
As for the staff or sabre thing-well, maybe. A hiker came upon a mountain lion on the Windsor trail just above the city of Santa Fe-the lion was probably guarding a kill, and the hiker backed down the hill jabbing at the attacking lion with one of those trek poles that looks like a ski-pole for about 20 minutes. Had to be the looongest 20 minutes of his life, but it worked. Much as I'd regret killing something for doing what it does, I'd have shot the thing.
Ursine behavior (yes, I also live in bear country, and have had LOTS of bear encounters) is also changing for the same reasons, as well as food pressure due to drought and the peculiarities of their metabolism-they'll take any opportunity for calories in the late summer and fall to prepare for hibernation, and where there isn't one, they'll try to make one. The generla advice about bears still pretty much holds true, though-make lots of noise and they'll probably stay away. If attacked by a brown or grizzly, play dead-it'll beat the snot out of you and leave you to rot,which is what they do with their prey, and if you survive the mauling you can run away after they bury you-yeah, they'll bury you-cover you up with leaves and dirt, generally. Fight, and you'll die. With black bears,while they'll generally run away from you with a little noise and hand waving, if attacked, and they do attack, you should fight-even get agressive about it-because if they're attacking you for food, they'll eat you on the spot, as happened to woman fishing in Tennessee, and a woman sleeping in her bed in Las Vegas, NM.
Yeah, I guess I am something of a "mountain man," in my spare time and at home, anyway. If mountain men drive Mercedes...
Definately no food in the tent! If you are in bear country hang it up away from your campground. Bottom line a good knife is a usable functional tool, so is a machete. A walking stick is another functional tool that you will find uses for. Handguns and Shotguns are always a plus as well but really BigShadow has it right the chance of you being attacked is very slim, particularly if you do not keep food out in the open and right near your camp. Good luck, take a camera and enjoy the scenic beauty.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
michaeledward
Grandmaster
Jonathan Randall said:
I am going to vote ... daft.
In the lower 48, there are very few, if any, animals higher up the food chain than homo sapien. Most animals are going to go out of the way to avoid you.
While fishing in Northern Ontario last summer, a bear came out of the woods and grunted at us, as we were standing in the river ... our guide shouted at the bear and clapped his hands ... when the bear didn't leave, our guide threw a rock at the bear ... and the bear wanderered away. Twenty minutes later, we saw the bear crossing the river about 200 yards downstream of us.
Personally, I think the bear was very accomodating for allowing us to fish in his river crossing, with only a little grumbling. After all, it is his wilderness.
I think that bringing a shortsword, only increases the possibility of hurting yourself.
Then again, if you get your arm caught between the rocks while climbing, it may be helpful.
michaeledward said:
Again, this isn't necessarily true-the furhter out you are in the backcountry, the more true it is, especially for mountain lions, but if you're in an area where they regularly encounter people, it just isn't necessarily anymore-a look here will show the muntain lion news stories from the last three days. A closer google will find the story of the two bike riders attacked in California not long ago-one killed and one maimed during the ensuing tug of war between her friend and the lion with her as the rope, the story of the mnan in Wahington who killed a young lion with a pocket knife as it clamped onto his neck, and numerous other stories of lions attacking, pretty much for the reasons I've outlined. Their behavior is simply changing in these areas, and Jonathan is right to be concerned-though, not overly concerned.
elder999 said:
I would argue that their behavior isn't changing, its just that more people then every before are going into areas where they exist. Even taking this into account, actual attacks are rare. These stories, however, are sensationalistic. So they get reported.
One of my jobs in the past has been to guide people into the Wilderness Areas near my home. It is lion and bear county and I've had encounters with wildlife of all kinds...including lions and bears. A little common sense and respect goes a long way.
Also, Michaeledward brings up a good point. You are far more likely to hurt yourself with the sword then be attacked by a lion. In the Wilderness, one can't afford those kind of mistakes because there is no-one around to save you from your one's own stupidity (I'm not saying your stupid Jonathan
). IMO, bringing a sword along is a safety hazard that is easily avoided. Leave it on the wall and go out and enjoy yourself.
elder999 said:
As with anything, there are no absolutes. Of course, I am trying to figure out what isn't true at all. Considering I am somewhat of an outdoorsman myself, spending countless days in the field.
Good advice about the cats, where I am, the baddest we encounter is black bears. However, it is still all about the points I listed, what you described is mostly attacks for food or protecting food, etc. I haven't been out that way but I have been in the appalachians and the swamps of Florida.
We do have the florida panther here, I have been camping near them years ago as a teen, but they are scarce nowadays, which is a shame.
Bottom line, animals simply do not attack out of spite, vengance, hatred, etc. There is always an underlying reason. They will even tolerate humans in their territory. Albeit, some humans look like easy prey for them.
Also one other thing about predator animals, if one is encountered, whatever you do, DO NOT RUN! That will trigger their instinct to chase. Also, I would never turn my back on them either.
Yeah-there's a sow that dens up the mountain from my house. We have fairly regular encounters, and once spent the better part of 10 minutes picking raspberries fromthe same patch-hey, I was there already, had to go past her to get home, and she didn't seem to mind-she regularly dines on my apples, if the dogs let her, anyway.
However, this page lists confirmed mountain lion attacks from 1890-1990.
This page lists attacks from 2001 to now. It ends in April, 2006, however, so it doens;t include incidents that have occured since then, like the attack on a boy in Boulder, CO at the end of April.
Do the math-whatever the reasons, and they are numerous and varied (and a reading of the accounts on the second page will demonstrate a case for changing behavior) these attacks really are on the increase.
However, this page lists confirmed mountain lion attacks from 1890-1990.
This page lists attacks from 2001 to now. It ends in April, 2006, however, so it doens;t include incidents that have occured since then, like the attack on a boy in Boulder, CO at the end of April.
Do the math-whatever the reasons, and they are numerous and varied (and a reading of the accounts on the second page will demonstrate a case for changing behavior) these attacks really are on the increase.
Ken Pfrenger
Green Belt
Good idea or not is really up to you to decide...personally when I go hiking ....although there are only black bears and a bobcat or two as our deadly predators, there are wild dogs aplenty that seem to be much more agressive....I usually carry a nice big bowie knife which some may call a short sword or even a hunting sword, and my fokos or ciupaga. The ciupaga makes for a nice walking stick and a weapon that does not really look like a weapon for the most part.
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