The Red Boat Opera Wing Chun
- Thread starter DavyKOTWF
- Start date
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I believe this is discussed briefly in one of the books by Ip Chun, but I cannot remember which one
OP
OP
DavyKOTWF
Orange Belt
Thanks for the replies. A new article I found this morning, after posting this, (course I know you can't believe evthing you read, nor some of what you hear and see) said that Ip Man knew both forms, Sport Style Wing Chun, which he taught to most everyone, and he also knew the secret Triad Red Boat Opera style of Wing Chun, which was more based on actual street fighting, dirty and down, and that he only taught this to a very select few, one of which was Williams Cheung; which flourishes in Australia. Old tales often have some basis in fact, along with fiction. Sure sounds interesting. Ip Man would have probably taught some of this, if true, to Bruce Lee too...another possible reason Bruce was such a great street fighter?
jobo
Grandmaster
Are you confusing life with the movies, I'm not sure Bruce was a great fighter at all. he was how ever very skilled in self promotion
Anyone claiming they were instructed in a secret style that they will now teach you, is almost certainly embellishing the truth, there are no secret styles,
jobo
Grandmaster
Can you give some evidence that Bruce was GREAT ? NB, enter THE DRAGON, isnt real !
Why do they keep these secrets styles underground ?
Headhunter
Senior Master
I don't agree with a lot of what @jobo says but he's said nothing wrong there. Lee was a great actor and a great teacher and a great athlete. All his so called supposed fights are nothing more than rumours. The only confirmed fight he had the outcome is debated because after that fight he changed his entire style and training regime and basically gave up on wing chun....people don't do that after /winning/ a fight do they...
Now I like Bruce lee his movies are fun to watch and he was in amazing shape and he had a good brain but as an actual /fighter/ there's no real evidence of how good he was. And that's not me instituting him. Not everyone's a fighter. He was a philosopher and a teacher a choreographer and an actor and he was very good at those things. That's what he was about and that's great but let's not overhype him either. A lot of people make him out to be this monk like saint but he wasn't, he did drugs, there were rumours he cheated on his wife and he was a gang member when he was younger and was known for being hot headed and arrogant and broke his friends jaw because he landed a hit on him in sparring.
Now you can call me a troll or whatever I don't care but I respect Bruce lee but I don't worship him as a god either he's a man the same as me, he bleeds the same as me so why would I worship him
Headhunter
Senior Master
Also you do know that ip Man barely taught Bruce lee anything. It was ip mans senior students who taught him most of his stuff and even then he didn't train at ip mans school for very long at all
OP
OP
DavyKOTWF
Orange Belt
Yes, I knew that Headhunter; but thank-you, in case I didn't. This seems to have drifted and turned into a BL thread, instead of underground Red Boat. That's okay, I'll just flow like water. i'm reading now, probably the most factual biography of Bruce Lee, by Matthew Polly. . . written just last year. Yep, it contains all the dirt on BL...affairs, smoking MJ, that he probably was a bit of a bully himself in his teens in Hong Kong, smart ***, angry punk, (he admitted most of these himself and learned later in his 20's that getting angry made a fool out of oneself.) And how the fight with Jack Man Wong was maybe a draw or he may have gotten beaten. It comments that he just ran out of steam and wasn't in as good a shape as he should have been. He DID try a dirty street technique at the first of the fight, confirmed by many, of trying to eye jab Jack Man when Jack Man was trying to touch hands/gloves. This was one of Bruce's primary techniques in a street fight he said himself, to end the fight quickly. Isn't ending the fight quickly what we learn in Wing Chun?
Anyone who thinks he didn't have many confirmed fights, is mistaken. He had many, many fights in HK as a teen, many he lost, probably most he won. He just loved fighting! Picking on Brit boys in HK or any other gang leader. After taking Wing Chun, he got better, and probably got in many fights in San Fran and Seattle. I'm paraphrasing all this from that book. Don't kid yourself, he was a fighter and extremely good. Does anyone on the forum think they could beat him? He was only 5'7" and weighed typically 135-140 lbs. Still could anyone here beat him? Ip Man was only about 5'2" to 5'3" and weighed less than Bruce, maybe 125-130 lbs. Could you beat him? I don't worship either man. But admire their philosophies and what they contributed to the MA.
And yes, Bruce quit his school and started studying perhaps Jack Man's style and others. Bruce was also a philosopher, having his own personal library of 2500 books. Bruce had so many wise sayings that he'd learned from reading. You'll learn things in that Polly book, and I'm only 1/3 the way through, that you probably didn't know about Bruce Lee. He said one time, he was going to kill Steve McQueen, in anger, but Steve stayed away for a while to let him cool off. Fascinating book. He once also said something like, "if his opponent tries to punch him, he would stun them with a fast punch. If he came again, he would maim him with maybe a knee smash. If he still came, he'd kill them." Bruce as you probably know didn't believe in 'point' fighting...because I'm sure of the many street fights he'd had in his life. Even Lew Alcindor at 7'2" or more, found out of Bruce's skills and power and wouldn't mess with him. Someone, maybe Royce, said, "you get a big, tall man on the ground, and he's only 10" tall.
Anyway, guess I'll have to just do research on those Red Boat boys myself...just thought someone would know more about that; which I"m sure they do, they just haven't seen this thread.
āFor it is easy to criticize and break down the spirit of others, but to know yourself takes a lifetime.ā BL
Thanks to all for expressing themselves.
Anyone who thinks he didn't have many confirmed fights, is mistaken. He had many, many fights in HK as a teen, many he lost, probably most he won. He just loved fighting! Picking on Brit boys in HK or any other gang leader. After taking Wing Chun, he got better, and probably got in many fights in San Fran and Seattle. I'm paraphrasing all this from that book. Don't kid yourself, he was a fighter and extremely good. Does anyone on the forum think they could beat him? He was only 5'7" and weighed typically 135-140 lbs. Still could anyone here beat him? Ip Man was only about 5'2" to 5'3" and weighed less than Bruce, maybe 125-130 lbs. Could you beat him? I don't worship either man. But admire their philosophies and what they contributed to the MA.
And yes, Bruce quit his school and started studying perhaps Jack Man's style and others. Bruce was also a philosopher, having his own personal library of 2500 books. Bruce had so many wise sayings that he'd learned from reading. You'll learn things in that Polly book, and I'm only 1/3 the way through, that you probably didn't know about Bruce Lee. He said one time, he was going to kill Steve McQueen, in anger, but Steve stayed away for a while to let him cool off. Fascinating book. He once also said something like, "if his opponent tries to punch him, he would stun them with a fast punch. If he came again, he would maim him with maybe a knee smash. If he still came, he'd kill them." Bruce as you probably know didn't believe in 'point' fighting...because I'm sure of the many street fights he'd had in his life. Even Lew Alcindor at 7'2" or more, found out of Bruce's skills and power and wouldn't mess with him. Someone, maybe Royce, said, "you get a big, tall man on the ground, and he's only 10" tall.
Anyway, guess I'll have to just do research on those Red Boat boys myself...just thought someone would know more about that; which I"m sure they do, they just haven't seen this thread.
āFor it is easy to criticize and break down the spirit of others, but to know yourself takes a lifetime.ā BL
Thanks to all for expressing themselves.
jobo
Grandmaster
So your evidence that Bruce was a GREAT fighter, is he had some fights and he might have lost some of them, not a startling endorsement of his abilities,
No I'm quite sure he could have beaten me, but that doesn't put him up there with the all time greats does it.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
With Bruce Lee there is no way to separate man and myth. He was clearly gifted. He was an intermediate Wing Chun student at best and what he became famous for was not Wing Chun. He didn't need Wing Chun to be Bruce Lee. Could I win a fight against him? The safe answer would be "no", but the honest answer is that I have no idea. He died young and was in better shape then than I was at that age or any other age, but I was a fighter back then and who knows? Probably not, but in a street fight, who knows? I have much more skill now, but I'm also old and respect human life more than I did back then, so it's an academic question that there is no answer to. I know that I have better Wing Chun than he did, because I know much more of the system and mine come from the same place that his did. But he was extraordinary and exceptional in ways that I am not, so...probably not. It doesn't matter.
As a dedicated, multi-decade Wing Chun guy...I do hate that Bruce Lee comes into everyone discussion about Wing Chun, because he didn't earn that place in this system. He had a brief association with it and then went on to become a larger-than-life international super-star based on his own gifts and hard work. Respect to him for what he did, not for studying a bit of Wing Chun.
Its also hard to separate Yip Man from Yip Man legend. I have never heard that Yip Man know "Red Boat Opera Wing Chun" and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is no way that he taught it to William Chueng. I do believe that Yip Man made his Wing Chun distinct from how it was being taught and how he learned it. It became Yip Man Wing Chun and I'm glad. I love it and I've spent a good bit of my life trying to be good at it. But, there was and is other Wing Chun. I don't doubt the Red Boat story. I have some lose ties to an Asian sifu who holds a system that he relates to Red Boat Opera and it's clearly Wing Chun, but clearly different than the Wing Chun I know. Whether it legitimately has anything to do with the Red Boat Opera troupe isn't as important as the fact that not all Wing Chun passed through Yip Man or even Hong Kong and some of it is at least as legit as generic Yip Man lineage systems. Start breaking down Yip Man lineages and arguing which are legit and which aren't and we're deeper down an unfortunate rat hole. I was posit that there are Yip Man lineages that claim their guy is the only one who learned the true/secret/blah blah and I that is always a lie. Not that everyone who holds a Yip Man lineage is equal, Yip Man was not the unified GM of Wing Chun and no one is the unified heir to Yip Man's system. It's just marketing or hubris when someone makes that claim.
I have no doubt that Yip Man was a great Wing Chun practitioner and teacher, but I have no idea if we was the best of his generation. It's possible that he was and that's why his system is so prolific and others are obscure, but it's also possible that this all comes back to Bruce Lee. Someone who was briefly a student of his became world famous and so did Yip Man, by extension.
As a Yip Man lineage sifu, I benefit from that, I guess. Maybe none of us would know anything about Wing Chun if Bruce Lee hadn't called attention to it, which is ironic. But, there is other Wing Chun and some of it is probably great. There are other southern short bridge systems than share some commonality with Wing Chun and some of it is great. Some of it, even people like me have never heard of, because it has either died out or they are just very private with it. It makes arguing amongst ourselves all that much less fruitful. We should instead be training and learning and doing what we are able to get better.
I recommended Rene Ritchee and Robert Chu's book Complete Wing Chun to you in a different thread, I think you might really enjoy reading it. Those authors are accessible if you wanted to ask them about their research as well. I know that you're watching all the Ip Man movies and reading Bruce Lee accounts right now and that's great, but this book would be a nice counter-balance to them.
As a dedicated, multi-decade Wing Chun guy...I do hate that Bruce Lee comes into everyone discussion about Wing Chun, because he didn't earn that place in this system. He had a brief association with it and then went on to become a larger-than-life international super-star based on his own gifts and hard work. Respect to him for what he did, not for studying a bit of Wing Chun.
Its also hard to separate Yip Man from Yip Man legend. I have never heard that Yip Man know "Red Boat Opera Wing Chun" and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there is no way that he taught it to William Chueng. I do believe that Yip Man made his Wing Chun distinct from how it was being taught and how he learned it. It became Yip Man Wing Chun and I'm glad. I love it and I've spent a good bit of my life trying to be good at it. But, there was and is other Wing Chun. I don't doubt the Red Boat story. I have some lose ties to an Asian sifu who holds a system that he relates to Red Boat Opera and it's clearly Wing Chun, but clearly different than the Wing Chun I know. Whether it legitimately has anything to do with the Red Boat Opera troupe isn't as important as the fact that not all Wing Chun passed through Yip Man or even Hong Kong and some of it is at least as legit as generic Yip Man lineage systems. Start breaking down Yip Man lineages and arguing which are legit and which aren't and we're deeper down an unfortunate rat hole. I was posit that there are Yip Man lineages that claim their guy is the only one who learned the true/secret/blah blah and I that is always a lie. Not that everyone who holds a Yip Man lineage is equal, Yip Man was not the unified GM of Wing Chun and no one is the unified heir to Yip Man's system. It's just marketing or hubris when someone makes that claim.
I have no doubt that Yip Man was a great Wing Chun practitioner and teacher, but I have no idea if we was the best of his generation. It's possible that he was and that's why his system is so prolific and others are obscure, but it's also possible that this all comes back to Bruce Lee. Someone who was briefly a student of his became world famous and so did Yip Man, by extension.
As a Yip Man lineage sifu, I benefit from that, I guess. Maybe none of us would know anything about Wing Chun if Bruce Lee hadn't called attention to it, which is ironic. But, there is other Wing Chun and some of it is probably great. There are other southern short bridge systems than share some commonality with Wing Chun and some of it is great. Some of it, even people like me have never heard of, because it has either died out or they are just very private with it. It makes arguing amongst ourselves all that much less fruitful. We should instead be training and learning and doing what we are able to get better.
I recommended Rene Ritchee and Robert Chu's book Complete Wing Chun to you in a different thread, I think you might really enjoy reading it. Those authors are accessible if you wanted to ask them about their research as well. I know that you're watching all the Ip Man movies and reading Bruce Lee accounts right now and that's great, but this book would be a nice counter-balance to them.
Don't believe the hype that the William Cheung people have put out over the years. There was never a "sport" style Wing Chun and never a super secret Triad version of Wing Chun. These are stories and legends that have never been substantiated. Ip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chung So and likely trained with and picked up a few things from Yuen Kay Shan. Don't believe the stories saying he taught a "super secret" version of Wing Chun only to William Cheung and a watered down "modified" version to everyone else. That was purely a marketing story that should have died out years ago. And it almost has until people dredge up old articles. Or recycle old crap into new articles.
Why do you always like to look back? Do you care about how Chinese wrestling might look like during Sung dynasty, Yuan dynasty, Ming dynasty, or Qien dynasty? You may only care about what Chinese wrestling has today.
Don't believe the hype that the William Cheung people have put out over the years. There was never a "sport" style Wing Chun and never a super secret Triad version of Wing Chun. These are stories and legends that have never been substantiated. Ip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chung So and likely trained with and picked up a few things from Yuen Kay Shan. Don't believe the stories saying he taught a "super secret" version of Wing Chun only to William Cheung and a watered down "modified" version to everyone else. That was purely a marketing story that should have died out years ago. And it almost has until people dredge up old articles. Or recycle old crap into new articles.
So, take this with a grain of salt. One of my teacher's students in HK has an uncle that's an old school Weng Chun guy. This uncle was a young man when he studied under GM Wai Yan, and was with Wai Yan when they met Leung Bik in the teahouse a few times. His words were that Leung Bik had very fast footwork and a hard punch as though he practiced iron palm.
That doesn't prove/disprove William Cheung's story, but it's an interesting data point.
Actually I don't see how it has any bearing whatsoever on William Cheung's unlikely stories. It is interesting in that it does suggest that Leung Bic did indeed exist, and that Yip Man's story about having learned advanced concepts from Leung Bic isn't so far fetched.
BTW, well before William Cheung promoted his stories, my old sifu also claimed that his own "soft-style" of Wing Chun (Wing Tsun) reflected what Yip Man learned from Leung Bic. Who knows? It would explain a lot.
Martial D
Senior Master
OP
OP
DavyKOTWF
Orange Belt
A couple of enthusiastic Wing Chun female students visited China to get the real flavor and learn what they could of the legend of Ng and the maiden Wing Chun. They had just visited Foshan, bought an expensive bottle of Chinese wine in ornate wrapping and an hour or two later, were traveling some back roads far out in the country in a rental car. As they drove along, they saw an old woman standing by the side of the road. They stopped and asked if she needed a ride. She must have been close to 90 years old, smile and nodded her head. They motioned for her to get in, as they suspected she didn't speak any English. She got in the front seat with the two travelers. They asked her did she live around here and she just smiled and nodded. They asked what her name was...she just smiled and nodded. The traveler sitting in the middle kept fiddling with her brown bag with the expensive bottle wine. Finally the old lady turned her head and looked at the bag and pointed her chin at it. The traveler said, 'oh, you want to know what's in here?" She pulled the wine bottle out, and said, "this is very expensive wine. I got it for my husband."
The old lady thought for a few seconds, then a big smile came over her face and she blurted out, "Good trade!"
The old lady thought for a few seconds, then a big smile came over her face and she blurted out, "Good trade!"
So... Here some facts: Leung Bik did exist, his full name was Leung Bik Wor. he died in 1911 and is buried in Fatsaan. Yip Man was enrolled at the College in HK when he was 18 (IIRC), so given he was born in the early 1890s, he could not have learnt from Leung Bik. nor could any student of Wai Yan have personally met Leung Bik...
