The problem with "traditional" martial arts part 3

Tony Dismukes

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See every time my coach camps for a fight he brings in guys who can handle him. And will spend 12 weeks getting mauled.

I think after a while of constantly being the best your judgment suffers.
I think a coach who has retired from actively training in an art himself can still improve as a coach (if not as a practitioner) by using the success of the people he coaches as feedback. Think Angelo Dundee or Cus D'Amato.

The difference between boxing and some TMAs is that no one promoted the fantasy that Dundee or D'Amato were invincible fighters themselves. (D'Amato never fought professionally and Dundee never fought at all.)

Other than that, I agree. An instructor who never puts himself in a position to lose is hurting his own development. In the long term that will also hurt the development of his students.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Did you just get tied in knots by tony?

Did you let him?
We really didn't get to do much free rolling. But during some of the stuff we were working on, I put in some honest resistance and "let him" show me how quickly a BJJ BB shifts gears and shuts things down, even when moving like a sloth. Much fun. Next time I'm up, I'm going to make a point of getting in some real free rolling with at least Tony, maybe some of the students. Even a blue belt ought to be able to cause me real problems from mount, and I want to find out where I suck and where I do well. It has been too long since I had a chance to roll with someone more skilled than me.
 

Gerry Seymour

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The difference between boxing and some TMAs is that no one promoted the fantasy that Dundee or D'Amato were invincible fighters themselves. (D'Amato never fought professionally and Dundee never fought at all.)
And I'm not sure how that ever came to be. I don't know if that's something that came from Japan (since I'm mostly JMA trained) or a result of new BB coming back to the US (because that's where I am) and using movie rhetoric to promote their teaching.

I find the longer I teach the less I'm concerned with whether a student can "beat" me. At 30-ish (when I got my BB), it mattered some. Now, I only expect to be able to do better at the skills they don't have. And I'd gladly learn (and, in fact, have) from my own students when they have better skills than me in some area.
 

Buka

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Your question is "Will you teach technique/strategy from other MA system?" My answer is "Yes, as long as it can help me to achieve my goal".

I meant the other part of the question....if a person teaches a Traditional Martial Art, but then learns something that he/she thinks their students needs to know - and teaches it to them, is that person no longer teaching a "traditional" Martial Art?
 

Buka

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See every time my coach camps for a fight he brings in guys who can handle him. And will spend 12 weeks getting mauled.

I think after a while of constantly being the best your judgment suffers.

Yeah, maybe it does, and maybe my teachers got their butts handed to them and I didn't see it. But I don't think so. Seriously doubt it.

And the last time, the time I mentioned in 86, I actually set that up, brought the person in to spar with my instructor in boxing - in an attempt to try and keep my instructor from going into the boxing game.

And I hope nobody reads anything negative into that. It was done out of love and respect.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I meant the other part of the question....if a person teaches a Traditional Martial Art, but then learns something that he/she thinks their students needs to know - and teaches it to them, is that person no longer teaching a "traditional" Martial Art?
That won't be an issue for me. I teach my students how to fight. I can't care less whether that's tradition or modern.

A wrestlers likes to put hands in front of his knee to prevent his opponent's hands from reaching to his leg/legs. It's a good defense for leg shooting. But since you use your hands to protect your knees, your head is not protected. As long as you can explain to your students the PRO and CON, all MA skill (traditional or modern) will have it's place.
 

Buka

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That won't be an issue for me. I teach my students how to fight. I can't care less whether that's tradition or modern.

A wrestlers likes to put hands in front of his knee to prevent his opponent's hands from reaching to his leg/legs. It's a good defense for leg shooting. But since you use your hands to protect your knees, your head is not protected. As long as you can explain to your students the PRO and CON, all MA can have it's place.

I agree. And I wonder if there's really much '"traditional" out there these days.

Does anyone here teach a Traditional Martial Art?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The difference between boxing and some TMAs is that no one promoted the fantasy that Dundee or D'Amato were invincible fighters themselves.
The wrestling art is different from the boxing art. No matter how many rounds that a Judo white belt may try to wrestle a 4th degree Judo belt belt, That white belt can never take down his opponent.

To have a perfect winning record in the boxing ring may be impossible. But to have an undefeated record on the wrestling mat is possible.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I agree. And I wonder if there's really much '"traditional" out there these days.

Does anyone here teach a Traditional Martial Art?
The Chinese wrestling doesn't have kick. If you integrate kick (from other MA systems) into it, will you still call it traditional?

One thing for sure is, after 1000 years, the new Chinese wrestling (with kick) will be considered as "traditional".

 

Buka

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I've been fortunate to have had the teachers I did. Rickson, Joe Lewis, Billy Blanks, Wallace, my boxing coach Joe Vassalo, my all around fighting coach JKD man Joe Maffei (student of Rickson)

I don't know who they would go to to get their butts kicked, maybe each other, I don't know. But I watched all off them fight a lot. A whole lot.

I once watched Rickson roll with over one hundred people in a row. You read that right, over one hundred people. It took several hours. They were wrestlers, Black Belts, football players, brawlers, Judo guys, street fighters, Karate guys. And with every single one of them he let them do the same thing - overpower him and get him in any position they wanted. Then he'd calmly work out of it and submit them. Every single one of them. And if you're thinking it would be different if they were allowed to punch, yeah, maybe, but I doubt that. The first dozen times I worked with Rickson he didn't teach me BJJ, not technically, he taught me how to work on the ground to utilize my punching and elbow skills in a grappling format, from bottom, top, side and during stand up grappling. BJJ came later.

Joe Lewis was fricken' scary. And he fought with anyone. I saw a guy get testy with him once. Joe was probably fifty at the time, I first trained with him when he was in his late twenties. Joe slapped him.....in the chest. WHAM, and it was so fricken' fast. I can still hear the sound it made, I really can, like it was yesterday. I remember the look on the guy's face. How he slowly turned and sunk to his knees. Gasping. We looked at his chest afterwards, he didn't want to show us, but we pulled his shirt up anyway. Like he had a choice, the chump idiot. And I say that because what the hell are you thinking when you do something like that? Especially to who he did it to. "Hello, earth to guy - smarten the F up"

The hand print almost looked like a tattoo, like it came from the funny pages. It was totally awesome.
 
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Gerry Seymour

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I agree. And I wonder if there's really much '"traditional" out there these days.

Does anyone here teach a Traditional Martial Art?
If you'd asked me before this thread, I'd have said, "Yes". But that's just my view - probably nobody else in NGA would consider what I teach traditional, and many folks outside NGA wouldn't consider NGA traditional.

I think I just like the idea of tradition better than I actually like tradition.
 

Buka

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If you'd asked me before this thread, I'd have said, "Yes". But that's just my view - probably nobody else in NGA would consider what I teach traditional, and many folks outside NGA wouldn't consider NGA traditional.

I think I just like the idea of tradition better than I actually like tradition.

I know, right? This thread has me doing all sorts of wondering now. And your thought of liking the idea of tradition.....man, I'll be pondering that for a bit.
 

Flying Crane

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I agree. And I wonder if there's really much '"traditional" out there these days.

Does anyone here teach a Traditional Martial Art?
I practice a system that claims a lineage back to the 1400s. True or not I dunno, but for now Ill take it at face value.

But what I am very confident of is that how it was done in the 1400s was very different from how I do it now. Perhaps even unrecognizable.

Thats probably true to some extent compared to 100 years ago and even 50 years ago. Nothing is exactly how it was a long time ago. Things change with every generation.

How do we define traditional? Im getting to the point where I dont much care.
 

Martial D

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I practice a system that claims a lineage back to the 1400s. True or not I dunno, but for now Ill take it at face value.

But what I am very confident of is that how it was done in the 1400s was very different from how I do it now. Perhaps even unrecognizable.

Thats probably true to some extent compared to 100 years ago and even 50 years ago. Nothing is exactly how it was a long time ago. Things change with every generation.

How do we define traditional? Im getting to the point where I dont much care.
I agree. My 'home' style is WC right? I look around, today, right now, and see this spectrum of mutually exclusive concepts and executions of said concepts that often look very little like each other, yet they all fall under this one traditional heading.

Now multiply that with many isolated lineages going down through time like some really committed versions of 'the telephone game' and I can imagine what lays at the beginning probably looks very little like the many variations we have now.

And that is just one 'traditional' style out of hundreds, and not even a very old one.

At this point I think it's less about what is being taught and more about conduct. Gis, addressing teacher as Sifu, sensei, etc, and even the aesthetic.(maybe some kanji on the wall or a dragon, definitely swords mounted somewhere)

If that stuff works for you, bonne appetite.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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how it was done in the 1400s was very different from how I do it now.
During my teacher's teacher time period, there was a famous Chinese wrestler. When he wrestled (it was always outdoor on dirt ground), he only had one shoe on. His other foot had white sock on only. He would stand on one leg. When he got hold of his opponent, he would give his leading leg to his opponent. No matter how his opponent might grab on his leading leg, he could always throw his opponent over his leading leg. After the wrestling match, his white sock was still clean and hadn't touched the ground yet.

I wonder what could happen if he deal with BJJ guys today.
 

drop bear

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We really didn't get to do much free rolling. But during some of the stuff we were working on, I put in some honest resistance and "let him" show me how quickly a BJJ BB shifts gears and shuts things down, even when moving like a sloth. Much fun. Next time I'm up, I'm going to make a point of getting in some real free rolling with at least Tony, maybe some of the students. Even a blue belt ought to be able to cause me real problems from mount, and I want to find out where I suck and where I do well. It has been too long since I had a chance to roll with someone more skilled than me.

And look if we break down the individual points of OPs post. Most of the issues can be resolved by honestly assessing where you suck.

But you can't do that if neither of you is trying to win or where image is so important that you can only engage in a death match.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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where image is so important that you can only engage in a death match.
No matter how many tournaments that you may have won, if you keep competing, soon or later you will lose. Do you want to maintain your reputation as much as you can? Of course you want to.

If you have just won a national champion title, next day a guy who knocks on your door and challenges you. Since he is nobody, he has nothing to lose. Do you want to give him a chance to defeat you so he can declare that he is better than the current national champion? There are many people who don't have courage to compete in tournament. But they want to take the short cut - defeat the champion. It happened in the past. It happens today, it will still happen in the future.

Instead of "death match", it's fare to ask the challenger to come up $5000.

- If he defeats you, you will pay him $5000.
- If you defeat him, he will pay you $5000.

Fighting will be much more fun this way.
 
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TSDTexan

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That's your everyday carry?

Most of the time yep.
I live in a rural agricultural area.

It's not an uncommon experience to see someone with a knife on their hip.

I feel safer with this then with a firearm holstered. Folks tend to stare when your strapped like that.

It is a fairly useful knife, and it doesn't draw a lot of attention around here. When I have lived in big towns I carried a spyderco clipped to my belt, or a neck sheathed single edged pushknife.

warn like this

images.jpeg


but looks like this.
push-daggers-gerber-ghostrike-punch-knife-002.jpg
 
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