The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

[The Kai]

Like wise
Hanshi Juchnik=Tracy's
Gm Arquillqa (sp?) = Tracy's
GM Alemany = Shaolin Kenpo
Eugene Sedeno=American kenpo

So where does this leave us?

 

[kelly keltner]

Kelly stated:

6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.


Hi Kell, good post, I just don't agree with #6. How can it be just Bruce's version of Kosho yet he's the 22 descendant which would mean 'his' is the Kosho art and everything else would be 'their' version, know what I mean? Personally, I think the original Kosho is of the Thomas Young lineage and it would be hard to argue that it's not.

Good Point Joe. Let me explain to the best of my ability.
The arguement can be made that Bruce is the 22nd descendant. The argument can also be made that Tom is.
I personaly believe from the documentation that I have seen and interviews and personal interaction with people who were there that Bruce Juchnik is the proper person to recognize as the head of that art. In fact Thomas Young recognized him as such.
However after seeing what people like tom and Ray are doing in an effort to see what Mitose wanted done. I have to give them their due. They are working to see what they percieve as Kosho spread. They are doing an admirable job and deserve recognition for it. So if they want to be the 22 grand poobah that's fine. I don't agree with some of the way history is being spun by them, so what. They may not agree about the history Bruce spins. That's Ok.
They are all working in their own way in the right direction.
That is what is important.

kelly

 

[John Bishop]

Like wise
Hanshi Juchnik=Tracy's
Gm Arquillqa (sp?) = Tracy's
GM Alemany = Shaolin Kenpo
Eugene Sedeno=American kenpo

So where does this leave us?

Actually you can go farther than that:
Nimr Hassan (Terry Lee) = Okinawan Karate
James Muro = Danzan Ryu Jujitsu
And a few others

Eugene Sedeno would be Kajukenbo (Walter Godin) & Shaolin Kenpo (Rick Alemany).

 

[GAB]

We would have better conversations here if we::feedtroll

John, Please explain your thought pattern on this.

Regards, Gary

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

John, Please explain your thought pattern on this.

Regards, Gary

The imlpication is clear to standers-by.

Dave

 

[GAB]

I have a question. I know Thomas Mitose is considered to be head of one of the Kosho systems, based on his bloodline... But didn't he get the bulk of his training in Kajukenbo?

So is he really teaching Kosho??

Sometimes things aren't always so easy to classify...

USKS1
Yes, that is very true.

One of the reasons for the split after almost a decade of togetherness..

I think the best thing that came out of all this, is that GGM Thomas is continuing the lineage by having his son (Mark) placed in the position of the 23rd GGM.

I truley hope he is going to continue the art.

One of the deals Hanshi Juchnik made with GGM James Mitose was to go forth and get others to learn and spread the art. He did that. He brought into the circle several (all that are named) in the book "True".

I don't think anyone thought it would all be taught the same, just like other styles or systems get a twist, when it goes on down or up the line.

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.

That is the reason Hanshi seeked Thomas out and had such a good friendship with Thomas Young.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

The imlpication is clear to standers-by.

Dave

Hi, If it is that clear, explain it please in a pm to me or however you want.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

I couldn't agree more John. Most of the articles in the last 20 years focus on Bruce in relationship to "Mitose's art".

However the info about Hanshi's past is available. He does not try to hide that fact. The focus tends to be toward kosho. Not on Tracy's kenpo. Serrada Escrima or Modern Arnis all of which he is qualified in.

kelly

Hi all,

Yes, Hanshi most of the time is focused in on Kosho.

He is now going to start and incorporate some of his knowledge in FMA and start teaching to students who are interested.
It will be based on the movements that are so good in the relationship to the octagon.
One on one and multiple opponet contact with the stick and empty hand...

Myself for one and my Son for another will be getting some of this training. I will be posting some more information on this later.

Regards, Gary

 

[John Bishop]

*Biography from Soke Charles Fisher.


BIOGRAPHY OF JOHN C. LEONING
JOHN C. LEONING WAS BORN IN HAWAII ON MAY 3, 1927 AND THE HOLDER OF THE 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT IN THE KAJUKENBO SYSTEM AND OPERATED THE NORTH AMERICAN KUNG-FU AND KARATE SCHOOL IN NORTH HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA FOR MANY YEARS.
HIS TEACHER WAS SIJO (FOUNDER) ADRIANO EMPERADO ON THE BIG ISLAND OF HAWAII. THIS WAS A ROUGH STYLE WITH ROUGH TEACHING METHODS, DESIGNED TO CREATE FIGHTERS IN ANY ENVIRONMENT OR SITUATION. THAT CLASS IN HAWAII HAD MANY FUTURE GREAT TEACHERS---THESE INCLUDED MR. ED PARKER THE CREATOR OF KENPO KARATE, SIFU RICHARD BUSTILLO OF THE IMB ACADEMY OF TORRANCE, CALIFORNIA AND PROFESSOR "LUCKY" E. LUCIANO, A NOW RED SATIN/SILVER BELT--9TH DEGREE---SIFU OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BRANCH B.C. MEXICO KAJUKENBO ASSOCIATION.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS AN EIGHT DEGREE RED AND WHITE STRIPE BELT (THE HIGHEST RANKING BLACK BELT IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN 1960) WITH TRAINING IN CHOY LI FAT KUNG-FU FROM SIFU SHARE K, LEW.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS CHARLES B. FISHER, YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT TWENTIETH TEACHER.

CARLO BUNDA--A BLACK BELT IN KAJUKENBO WHO TRAINED UNDER JOHN C. LEONING, HACHIDAN --8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WON THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL KARATE CHAMPIONSHIP AT LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA HOSTED BY ED PARKER, SHICHIDAN--7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT.

SIFU LEONING USED TO SAY "TAKE IT EASY" SIFU LEONING USED TO CHANGE THE SETS ALL THE TIME, SO IF YOU WERE GOING ANY LENGTH OF TIME AND WHEN YOU RETURNED TO CLASS, YOU HAD TO LEARN THE SETS ALL OVER AGAIN. SIFU LEONING NEVER DID THAT WITH THE BASICS THOUGH.

THE REASON I WAS PROMOTED TO YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WAS SIFU LEONING KNEW MY EAST COAST TEACHER--DANIEL K. PAI, SHICHIDAN --7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT ALSO FROM HAWAII AND I ALSO KNEW ALL THE BASICS AND THE SETS.

SIFU LEONING WAS IN FILMS ABOUT FOUR YEARS WHEN HE WON A ROLE IN THE "KUNG-FU" T.V. SERIES ON STRENGTH OF HIS TALENTS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS. AMONG HIS FILMS WERE "PIPE DREAMS" AND HIS FINAL FILM WAS "KENTUCKY FRIED MOVIE".

SIFU LEONING WORKED FOR A JANITOR SERVICE AFTER THE KAJUKENBO CLASS WAS OVER. SIFU LEONING WAS A CATHOLIC. I WAS AT THE MASS (NO VIEWING BECAUSE THE CASKET WAS CLOSED) THE DAY HE WAS BURIED AND AT THE FUNERAL THE KAJUKENBO GROUP PERFORMED NAIHANCHI ONE "THE DANCE OF DEATH". HIS WIFE AND SON WERE THERE ALSO.

SIFU LEONING DIED AT THE AGE OF 50 ON WEDNESDAY MARCH 23, 1977 OF A HEART ATTACK AND IS BURIED AT FOREST LAWN IN THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS, CALIFORNIA.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe:
I just noticed your source for this bio. You know better then to take these website claims at face value. Funny thing about this gentleman who calls himself, The founder and Soke of:
SAKANA-DAN RYU GOJU-KENPO KARATE-JUTSU
(FISH-MAN STYLE HARD SOFT-FIST LAW EMPTY HAND-ART)
None of John Leoning's black belts have ever heard of him. And the school address where he says he trained with Leoning was then, and still is a apartment building. Leoning had his school on Lankershim Bl, in No. Hollywood, not where this Soke says he trained. But he wouldn't be the first one to claim rank from someone who is no longer alive to dispute it.

 

[The Kai]

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

Joe:
I just noticed your source for this bio. You know better then to take these website claims at face value. Funny thing about this gentleman who calls himself, The founder and Soke of:
SAKANA-DAN RYU GOJU-KENPO KARATE-JUTSU
(FISH-MAN STYLE HARD SOFT-FIST LAW EMPTY HAND-ART)
None of John Leoning's black belts have ever heard of him. And the school address where he says he trained with Leoning was then, and still is a apartment building. Leoning had his school on Lankershim Bl, in No. Hollywood, not where this Soke says he trained. But he wouldn't be the first one to claim rank from someone who is no longer alive to dispute it.

John stated: "You know better then to take these website claims at face value".

No, John, that was not my intention of the post. I posted the bio so others could comment on it because just before that there was controversy about Sifu Leoning's rank in those early years. My intent was to show one of the sources of such controversy. "Joe"

 

[Karazenpo]

Good Point Joe. Let me explain to the best of my ability.
The arguement can be made that Bruce is the 22nd descendant. The argument can also be made that Tom is.
I personaly believe from the documentation that I have seen and interviews and personal interaction with people who were there that Bruce Juchnik is the proper person to recognize as the head of that art. In fact Thomas Young recognized him as such.
However after seeing what people like tom and Ray are doing in an effort to see what Mitose wanted done. I have to give them their due. They are working to see what they percieve as Kosho spread. They are doing an admirable job and deserve recognition for it. So if they want to be the 22 grand poobah that's fine. I don't agree with some of the way history is being spun by them, so what. They may not agree about the history Bruce spins. That's Ok.
They are all working in their own way in the right direction.
That is what is important.

kelly

I hear ya, Kell.

 

[Karazenpo]

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd

Yes, Todd, it would follow, in my opinion, that Professor Young would be the 22nd but if the natural order of progression of lineage follows then the 23rd would be Young's successor, who's name currently alludes me, perhaps John can help). My point in mentioning Thomas Young is simple. He was Mitose's first black belt and is the true keeper of the Kosho flame since he stayed with it for life, evolving and adding to it from it's original teachings. How can anyone argue that? He wasn't someone who got his foundation and advance rankings from another system and then studied the art of Kosho. Wouldn't that be like someone, let's say, with an American Kenpo background, who starts studying Kajukenbo and then becomes the successor to Sijo Emperado? The only exception to my way of thinking would be for Thomas Mitose, if of course 'blood line' is factored in, however, it still appears to me that the original Kosho is found with Professor Young and his descendants. I'm trying not to discredit anyone, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of this. It seems to go contrary to everything that came before if you know what I mean..... I also understand that Hanshi Juchnik had a relationship with Professor Young but while checking things out I also came across a picture of GM. Thomas with Professor Young. I guess the debate continues..........

 

[GAB]

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd

Good point Todd...

But... he did not leave the Keys to the martial art, he left the keys to the building.

Thomas Young carried on the Martial arts taught there. But was not privy to the lineage. He was able to define his certain twist and there fore was able to keep it going. He then turned over the building to someone else etc....

His cousin Mike Young was and still is I believe connected with Hanshi.

John Bishop,

Charles Fisher has many type-o's. He is in a rest home, the computer is his life line with the world. I would not discount his knowledge from what you have said.

Regards, Gary

 

[John Bishop]

John Bishop,

Charles Fisher has many type-o's. He is in a rest home, the computer is his life line with the world.
Regards, Gary

Yes, that is a sorrowful situation to be in. But it does not make his claims true.

 

[GAB]

Yes, Todd, it would follow, in my opinion, that Professor Young would be the 22nd but if the natural order of progression of lineage follows then the 23rd would be Young's successor, who's name currently alludes me, perhaps John can help). My point in mentioning Thomas Young is simple. He was Mitose's first black belt and is the true keeper of the Kosho flame since he stayed with it for life, evolving and adding to it from it's original teachings. How can anyone argue that? He wasn't someone who got his foundation and advance rankings from another system and then studied the art of Kosho. Wouldn't that be like someone, let's say, with an American Kenpo background, who starts studying Kajukenbo and then becomes the successor to Sijo Emperado? The only exception to my way of thinking would be for Thomas Mitose, if of course 'blood line' is factored in, however, it still appears to me that the original Kosho is found with Professor Young and his descendants. I'm trying not to discredit anyone, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of this. It seems to go contrary to everything that came before if you know what I mean..... I also understand that Hanshi Juchnik had a relationship with Professor Young but while checking things out I also came across a picture of GM. Thomas with Professor Young. I guess the debate continues..........

Hi Joe:

One thread quite some time ago, John Bishop said, Thomas Mitose was an honorable person and very quiet about the lineage. I feel that Thomas Mitose is that way because of his respect for Hanshi. He knows the truth...

IN My Opinion the truth is: If not for Hanshi Bruce, Thomas would have been left at the starting gate. He would have had to go to bat and fight for his rightful spot.
Hanshi was responsible for the the good, bad and ugly. He will tell you all about it, just call him. Thomas was and is very grateful for what Hanshi did.

I am sure his son Mark is also. If that is not the truth, then lets hear it.

You have to remember the people in this thread were together for almost a decade.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Yes, that is a sorrowful situation to be in. But it does not make his claims true.

I guess we are alway's going to be on opposing teams, that is OK.

From what you have said of late makes me believe you are not able to see outside the box.

Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?

What you say, and I say are only one side of the road. Most topics are not always agreed upon. It would be pretty boring if that was the case.

I think it is and has been a good dicussion. Remember this all started because of the A&E topic. I for one am glad to hear anyones input, some of it may not be exactly what I have read or heard but it is still worthy of comment.

Was it Plato who said, arguement is good for arguement's sake? Something like that...

I am alway's respectful of your input.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

But... he did not leave the Keys to the martial art, he left the keys to the building.
But they both trained with Mitose for the same amount of time, but at different loops in the time line. So Y oung was seniormost student leave him the shool, resposibilty and nothing else

You have to remember the people in this thread were together for almost a decade

Sometimes you have to remember that a rising tide lifts all boats. The history of the martail arts is intertwined between practioners.

Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?

All Martail Arts history is a curious mixture of fact, myth, misunderstanding and wish - That is what I tell my students.
Sijo history is Sijo's version of Sijo's history-You could put any name in there.
john Bishop gave a double check on the facts. If you don't want to blindly agree to Sijo's history, you neither should blindly agree with a website because you agree to it! Ya know what I mean?
Todd

 

[John Bishop]

I guess we are alway's going to be on opposing teams, that is OK.

Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?

Regards, Gary

Not at all. But when you have someone who claims that he trained in 1970 with John Leoning, and that he was awarded a "4th degree" from John Leoning. I asked some of John Leoning's black belts who "were there" in 1970, including Leoning's most senior black belt. "They" never heard of him. "They" say Leoning's school was on Lankershim Bl, not where this individual claimed to have attended classes.

And. If someone is claiming that John Leoning was of a certain rank, or received a certain rank, at a certain time. Who better to ask, than his teacher, Sijo Emperado. The only one who would have given him his rank.

I've asked you in the past who your sources were, but you've never named any creditible ones.

 

[GAB]

Not at all. But when you have someone who claims that he trained in 1970 with John Leoning, and that he was awarded a "4th degree" from John Leoning. I asked some of John Leoning's black belts who "were there" in 1970, including Leoning's most senior black belt. "They" never heard of him. "They" say Leoning's school was on Lankershim Bl, not where this individual claimed to have attended classes.

And. If someone is claiming that John Leoning was of a certain rank, or received a certain rank, at a certain time. Who better to ask, than his teacher, Sijo Emperado. The only one who would have given him his rank.

I've asked you in the past who your sources were, but you've never named any creditible ones.

John Bishop:

I had read the Fisher site and felt it was creditible, at this point and time with your above information I will stand corrected.

John, I don't believe I have mentioned any source's other then the various websites, as we all know they are all suspect.

Yes, I will give you the respect, you are in the position to know and you are very willing to talk about it and explain it.

Regards, Gary


Todd, Yes I understand what you are saying, do we understand each other???

I don't think so.

Regards, Gary