The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

[The Kai]

Gary
What glass house?? And no riddles please
Todd

 

[The Kai]

Gary
Who is undecided as to Parker's contributions to the kenpo community??

As to you were there, you were what a 17 yr old yellow belt, so the seniors came and told a young beginnner "Ya know Ed Parker not really a Black Belt"?

I don't really understand the Glass House comment, unless you are still upset over not being able to hide behind your riddle and koan B.S. Again I apoligize if I hurt your feelings
todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Todd,

You are not hurting my feelings, and the slite's keep on coming. No problem Kai I read you like a book.

I answer as to what I feel appropriate and what you say is not a factor.

Glass house, is a reference to persons who are living in a glass house should not throw rocks... As if someone is not on a stable surface they should not push the subject, if it is a topic or someone in front of them.

I will give you the the first offense (throwing a punch).. But it has already been thrown numerous times in my mind and you are not going to surprise me...

If you saw the picture "the Last Samurai" (when Tom cruise is fighting, the scene he creates in his own mind) Is supposed to be the no mind concept...

Not how I percieve that concept but it is how the misreprezentation was presented. I am only using that as a reference point on this particular post.

Say What??? You seem to like to answer a question or response with a misquote. Why is that?:idunno:

I feel I am on better ground defending Hanshi's lineage than others who defend various persons in their past lineage or in the present as far as that goes.

When you get the water from the 'crystal clear spring' you don't have to worry about a dirty vessel.:asian: The Lineage is very clear.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Gary

First off I think you meant "slight" and not "slite's" keep coming?

If you think I am misquoting I am pasting your quotes. The only alteration is I take out the most incomprehensible, innane and illogical in your posts. sorry if this offends you-but I need to a least try to make sense of what you're saying!

As far as the movie reference or the "throwing the 1st punch reference" I really have no idea what the hell you're talking about!
Actually, if you get water from a Crystal Spring you need to worry about a dirty vessel. It would, in fact contaminate trhe water you store/carry? Even your own analgies are a little twisted!
Todd

 

[John Bishop]

We would have better conversations here if we::feedtroll

 

[kelly keltner]

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.

yep sure is

kell

 

[Karazenpo]

If I may quote Gary:

"After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage."

I have to most definitely agree on the point of removing Mitose from the lineage. I've always said that I seperated Mitose the man from Mitose the martial artist. He still planted the seed which we call kenpo that was nurtured, cultivated and spread by others into all the fine systems we have today. Now, imho, whether he received his basics from Okinawan Kenpo's Nabura Tanamaha of the Choki Motobu lineage or from his maternal grandfather in Japan or a little bit of both, he still was the catalyst who ignited the flame of this Hawaiian derived kenpo/kempo. Anyone who digs into the history of our kenpo/kempo systems will find that many started their own thing with probably as much knowledge as Mitose, some maybe a little more and some maybe a little less but right in the ballpark and most were not black belts either. So, to me, if you're going to post a lineage in your Hawaiian derived kenpo art and exclude Mitose, then it is inaccurate. Whether someone likes the man or not, whether he had minimal training or not, all doesn't matter, he still triggered this whole kenpo thing! As far as his character goes, forget it. Imho and many others he certainly was no role model but neither were the unscrupulous Japanese Samurai and they were the initial forerunners of our jiu jitsu systems, should we deny them their role in m.a. history also?

 

[The Kai]

I don't think Mitose is "removed" from any lineage per se, it is simply a misconception.
Todd

 

[John Bishop]

Lineage is always something that is altered to suit the needs of the story teller. The question is; how far does the alteration go?
You see people "jumping up" here and there, and re-writing their lineage all the time. Most notable, Nick Cerio and Bruce Juchnik.
In reality Nick Cerio was 4 generations down from William Chow. Then he has some training from Chow, and moves himself up 3 generations. Now did he remove all the Kajukenbo and Karazempo techniques from his system, and only teach Chow's techniques after training with Chow? Probably not.
In reality Bruce Juchnik was about 6 generations down from James Mitose. He visits Mitose in prison, and moves himself up about 5 generations.
Now there's nothing wrong with seeking instruction from your seniors, seniors. But your first lineage in the same art can't really be re-written. And to leave out from your bio's the actual people who "brought you up" is disrespectful to say the least.

Now do we in Kajukenbo recognize Mitose as someone in our lineage. Yes we do. But we cannot say that he is the root of our system. We have 5 major systems, and 2 minor systems that were used to create Kajukenbo.
So is Mitose any more important in our lineage then Henry Okizaki, Alfredo Peralta, Jigoro Kano, or any of the others in our lineage? Not at all.

So to claim that "all Hawaiian derived kenpo systems owe thier existance to Mitose" is not entirely true. Much of the Kenpo in Hawaii, and most of it on the east coast comes from Kajukenbo. So it would be much more realistic to say that they owe 15-20 % of their existance to Mitose.

 

[James Kovacich]

Lineage is always something that is altered to suit the needs of the story teller. The question is; how far does the alteration go?
You see people "jumping up" here and there, and re-writing their lineage all the time. Most notable, Nick Cerio and Bruce Juchnik.
In reality Nick Cerio was 4 generations down from William Chow. Then he has some training from Chow, and moves himself up 3 generations. Now did he remove all the Kajukenbo and Karazempo techniques from his system, and only teach Chow's techniques after training with Chow? Probably not.
In reality Bruce Juchnik was about 6 generations down from James Mitose. He visits Mitose in prison, and moves himself up about 5 generations.
Now there's nothing wrong with seeking instruction from your seniors, seniors. But your first lineage in the same art can't really be re-written. And to leave out from your bio's the actual people who "brought you up" is disrespectful to say the least.

Now do we in Kajukenbo recognize Mitose as someone in our lineage. Yes we do. But we cannot say that he is the root of our system. We have 5 major systems, and 2 minor systems that were used to create Kajukenbo.
So is Mitose any more important in our lineage then Henry Okizaki, Alfredo Peralta, Jigoro Kano, or any of the others in our lineage? Not at all.

So to claim that "all Hawaiian derived kenpo systems owe thier existance to Mitose" is not entirely true. Much of the Kenpo in Hawaii, and most of it on the east coast comes from Kajukenbo. So it would be much more realistic to say that they owe 15-20 % of their existance to Mitose.

Now that was a powerful post! Funny thing. I watched my Kaju History tape over the weekend and Sijo talked about all those who passed through Kajukenbo before moving on and becoming famous. I find Sijo to be intersting and his personalitie reminded much of my old instructor from back in the day.

 

[Karazenpo]

Todd and Sigung John, you know I'm with you guys and I agree on 99.9 per cent of what you say but here's my perspective. Todd, it's not misconspection, it's fact, EPAK cuts Mitose out of their lineage and this is in no way slandering the Parker people for I've had this friendly disagreement on lineage with Dr. Ron Chapel whom I have the utmost respect for. John Bishop, I also have the utmost respect for and I'm sure he knows that but Nick Cerio was very close to Kathy and I, it goes without saying the respect we have for him and his accomplishments along with his place in kenpo history, but if I have to be truthful............. John is correct on the lineage issue, again, not taking anything away from Professor Cerio because I've always believed that and in personal conversations, the Professor always stated it was his first kenpo instructor whom he made his black belt under, Gm. S. George Pesare, who gave him his identity. However, on this point, John, in a friendly and respectful disagreement, I have to say, all of the Hawaiian derived kenpo does indeed hold their existance to James Mitose (and you know, John, I'm in no way a supporter of Mitose, the man!). Everything we've ever been told about the kenpo in Kajukenbo was that Chow taught essentially the kenpo that Mitose taught him and that Chow's revisions came much later. Don't get me wrong, in time Sijo made his own modifications and revisions, no doubt. Same thing with Parker, from 1954 to around 1961 he essentially taught the same kenpo Chow taught him which was what Mitose taught Chow, with, I grant you, a few modifications here and there but nothing so significant that would constitute it a whole new style and of cource, later, Parker did his own thing. Respectfully submitted, "Joe"

 

[kelly keltner]

Lineage is always something that is altered to suit the needs of the story teller. The question is; how far does the alteration go?
You see people "jumping up" here and there, and re-writing their lineage all the time. Most notable, Nick Cerio and Bruce Juchnik.
In reality Nick Cerio was 4 generations down from William Chow. Then he has some training from Chow, and moves himself up 3 generations. Now did he remove all the Kajukenbo and Karazempo techniques from his system, and only teach Chow's techniques after training with Chow? Probably not.
In reality Bruce Juchnik was about 6 generations down from James Mitose. He visits Mitose in prison, and moves himself up about 5 generations.
Now there's nothing wrong with seeking instruction from your seniors, seniors. But your first lineage in the same art can't really be re-written. And to leave out from your bio's the actual people who "brought you up" is disrespectful to say the least.

Now do we in Kajukenbo recognize Mitose as someone in our lineage. Yes we do. But we cannot say that he is the root of our system. We have 5 major systems, and 2 minor systems that were used to create Kajukenbo.
So is Mitose any more important in our lineage then Henry Okizaki, Alfredo Peralta, Jigoro Kano, or any of the others in our lineage? Not at all.

So to claim that "all Hawaiian derived kenpo systems owe thier existance to Mitose" is not entirely true. Much of the Kenpo in Hawaii, and most of it on the east coast comes from Kajukenbo. So it would be much more realistic to say that they owe 15-20 % of their existance to Mitose.

Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in.
The statement that Bruce was rewriting lineage as if he was jumping up or ahead of other people. What would you do?
1. He was given the system by Mitose. The documentation has been verified by a well known forensic handwriting analyst and well known and respected witnesses who were around in the late 70's.
2. How do you write a lineage chart for such a situation? This is a serious question.
3. Bruce does not ignore, disavow or deny any of his teachers.
4. Here is a partial list. Mariano Estioko, Dan Babkok(sp), Mike Dean, Remy Presas, Angel Cabales.
5. If you would read his books, or watch his tapes or heaven forbid I'm beatin a dead horse here give him a call you'd know this.
6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.


kelly

 

[John Bishop]

Everything we've ever been told about the kenpo in Kajukenbo was that Chow taught essentially the kenpo that Mitose taught him and that Chow's revisions came much later.
Respectfully submitted, "Joe"

Agreed on the Kenpo part. But we have 5 founders, 5 styles, that we recognize, who contributed techniques and philosophy to Ka-ju-ken-bo. If it wasn't for the contributions of the other 4 founders, we'd just be another "Hawaiian Kenpo" style, not Kajukenbo.
To give credit to Mitose as the "root" of Kajukenbo and it's sub-systems, is to do a great injustice to the other great martial artists in our lineage, like Henry Okizaki, and Jigoro Kano. I can't speak for Karazempo or Shaolin Kempo, but there is a whole lot of Danzan Ryu jujitsu, Escrima, Western boxing, and Kodokan Judo in Kajukenbo. And it didn't come from Mitose.

How about this Joe. Prof. Joe Holck has his Kajukenbo black belts. And his black belts have theirs. He was a student of Henry Okizaki and Sig Kufferath. He never trained a day with Mitose or Chow. So is Mitose the root of his black belts too?
Lineage has to start somewhere. Do Shotokan blackbelts trace their lineage all the way up the Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu lineages? Or does their lineage start with Funakoshi?

 

[John Bishop]

OK, for Kelly's sake, let me say this.
I don't personally know Mr. Juchnik, and have never seen him demonstrate techniques, other then on video.
But, from what I have been told by people who's opinions I respect, Mr. Juchnik is a excellent martial arts technician, and teacher.
I do not question any of his documents from James Mitose, or his claim to be the leader of his own version of Kosho Ryu.

But I have noticed that in all the bios or articles (that I've seen over the last 20 years)that have been written about or by him, the only mention of his "Kenpo" instructor is Mitose. I'm not saying that one should list every instructor they got a purple belt from, but someone who trained you to black belt level is a important part of your martial arts experience, as is your teachers, teacher.
But he can write whatever auto-biography he want's. It's his-story.

So anyway, back to the discussion on lineages.

 

[kelly keltner]

I couldn't agree more John. Most of the articles in the last 20 years focus on Bruce in relationship to "Mitose's art".

However the info about Hanshi's past is available. He does not try to hide that fact. The focus tends to be toward kosho. Not on Tracy's kenpo. Serrada Escrima or Modern Arnis all of which he is qualified in.

kelly

 

[Karazenpo]

Agreed on the Kenpo part. But we have 5 founders, 5 styles, that we recognize, who contributed techniques and philosophy to Ka-ju-ken-bo. If it wasn't for the contributions of the other 4 founders, we'd just be another "Hawaiian Kenpo" style, not Kajukenbo.
To give credit to Mitose as the "root" of Kajukenbo and it's sub-systems, is to do a great injustice to the other great martial artists in our lineage, like Henry Okizaki, and Jigoro Kano. I can't speak for Karazempo or Shaolin Kempo, but there is a whole lot of Danzan Ryu jujitsu, Escrima, Western boxing, and Kodokan Judo in Kajukenbo. And it didn't come from Mitose.

How about this Joe. Prof. Joe Holck has his Kajukenbo black belts. And his black belts have theirs. He was a student of Henry Okizaki and Sig Kufferath. He never trained a day with Mitose or Chow. So is Mitose the root of his black belts too?
Lineage has to start somewhere. Do Shotokan blackbelts trace their lineage all the way up the Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu lineages? Or does their lineage start with Funakoshi?

Hey John, yes, I know where you're coming from and most definitely see your points. I'm not saying I'm right but it's how I view lineage. In every tree I have ever seen it lists Kajukenbo as a subsystem of Chow's kempo and then Chow is listed as a subsystem of Mitose's kempo. If one follows that logic then Mitose is the 'root' but 'root' doesn't mean that Kajukenbo is all Kosho ryu, I didn't mean that and I certainly wouldn't leave out the other founders either, it just means to me anyway, that's how it all started. I mean, it's roots weren't Shotokan or Hapkido. I believe in the early years it was called kenpo karate and that still holds true in the Emperado method, which is listed as the 'original' kenpo karate method. We all know that some of the true eclectic blending didn't occur until the 60's. Good question about Shotokan, they may trace it to Funakoshi but when Funakoshi's lineage is shown it does go back to Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu, it has too. Karazenpo's tree always goes under a subsystem of Kajukenbo. I don't know, John, just how I see it but it doesn't mean I don't acknowledge all the founders of Kajukenbo, I'm just talking about tracing back to it's origins.

 

[Karazenpo]

Kelly stated:

6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.


Hi Kell, good post, I just don't agree with #6. How can it be just Bruce's version of Kosho yet he's the 22 descendant which would mean 'his' is the Kosho art and everything else would be 'their' version, know what I mean? Personally, I think the original Kosho is of the Thomas Young lineage and it would be hard to argue that it's not.

 

[John Bishop]

I'm not saying I'm right but it's how I view lineage. In every tree I have ever seen it lists Kajukenbo as a subsystem of Chow's kempo and then Chow is listed as a subsystem of Mitose's kempo.

Well, I have nobody to blame but myself, since most of these "Kenpo lineage trees" have been taken from some early magazine articles I wrote about William Chow and other Kenpo people.
But the purpose that I created the tree ( http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/kenpofamilytree.cfm ) was to show the origin of other Kenpo systems that now exist. I could have easily put "Kajukenbo" on a jujitsu tree under Danzan Ryu.
It was the Kajukenbo offshoots that decided to reclaim the "Kenpo" name, after breaking away from Kajukenbo. But the name "Kajukenbo" is more representative of our 5 roots, not one.
So instead of tracing five distinct lineages, we have to start our root with the Founders, who created something uniquely differant then any of the individual 5 systems.

 

[The Kai]

I guess to a Large Degree it comes down to whom you consider to be the founder(s) of your style

At what point is a system seperate from it's parent art?

 

[USKS1]

I have a question. I know Thomas Mitose is considered to be head of one of the Kosho systems, based on his bloodline... But didn't he get the bulk of his training in Kajukenbo?

So is he really teaching Kosho??

Sometimes things aren't always so easy to classify...