The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism

[Makalakumu]

Very interesting stuff once you start to dissect the statistics.

Are the Scandinavian countries really examples of successful socialism? Stefan Molyneux, Host of Freedomain Radio, dissects the myth of productive state power.

Freedomain Radio is the largest and most popular philosophy show on the web - http://www.freedomainradio.com

Sources: http://www.fdrurl.com/scan_myth

 

[Cirdan]

Dang, finally exposed as the commie hellholes we are

 

[Makalakumu]

Dang, finally exposed as the commie hellholes we are

Actually, the presentation was more positive than that. Scandinavia has a degree of peace and economic freedom that is very unsocialist and this offsets a lot of the bad effects caused by their high taxes and wellfare programs. Yet, in the end, these programs have the same effect that all big government has. Socialist scandinavia still carries high public debt and at keeps getting higher. It's a party on other people's money that won't last forever.

On the plus side, when the unsustainability of socialist policy finally wrecks the economy, the economic freedom and peace that these countries enjoy should turn around the mess. quickly.

 

[K-man]

I'm sorry to rain on the parade but, what a crock of s#1t. I don't know why he is rounding on Scandinavia to show how great the US is and how these Socialist economies don't measure up. His 'facts' are really strange. The insinuation is that even life expectancy goes down with a socialist system. I'm not sure if he is just straight out wrong because Scandinavian life expectancy is up there with the best, or whether he is saying that they aren't really socialist because their life expectancy is high.

Then he talks about public debt. As a percentage of GDP they are far lower than the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

Standard of living is harder to quantify but once again the Scandinavian counties rank at the top of the scale. He says that they are saving money because their defence sending is much lower than the US, but so is every other country in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

Then he compares incomes. Well the US has more dollars per capita than anyone. It helps to own the printing press because that is where the US dollars are coming from. And, then he says that Scandinavians have a high standard of living because they are borrowing money to fund their lifestyle. Well guys, I have some real bad news .... http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

He looks at net worth. By the time you take $53K of the $100K that he says you are worth you are left with $47K. About the same as elsewhere.

What he hasn't addressed is the problem of the US economy and its adverse effect on the rest of the world. :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

This person has an even worse analysis of the US economy, so don't get to upset. The main difference, I think, is in the US pursuit of Empire. All of the freedom we have is essentially blasted away by our military industrial complex.

That said, Australian housing is in a bubble and it will pop. The whole world is in a dollar bubble as long as our Fed keeps printing. That monster is eventually going to pop.

 

[K-man]

That said, Australian housing is in a bubble and it will pop. The whole world is in a dollar bubble as long as our Fed keeps printing. That monster is eventually going to pop.

As far as the Australian housing market is concerned it has been slow or has gone a little bit back over the pat five years. Now it is starting to grow again thanks to lower interest rates and less pessermism. Your assertion that the Australian housing situation is in a bubble that will pop is purely your opinion, and IMHO an uninformed one at that. There are many reasons the Australian market has been steady, not the least being that money is only lent to those with the capacity to service the debt, unlike the US banks that gave money to anyone, then sold the mortgages, with AAA rating, to others who ended up carrying the can when the debtors could not pay.

As to your Federal Reserve printing money ... they can only do it because the American people allow it!
:asian:

 

[Cirdan]

Actually, the presentation was more positive than that. Scandinavia has a degree of peace and economic freedom that is very unsocialist and this offsets a lot of the bad effects caused by their high taxes and wellfare programs. Yet, in the end, these programs have the same effect that all big government has. Socialist scandinavia still carries high public debt and at keeps getting higher. It's a party on other people's money that won't last forever.

On the plus side, when the unsustainability of socialist policy finally wrecks the economy, the economic freedom and peace that these countries enjoy should turn around the mess. quickly.

Norway does not have any debt, quite the opposite in fact. Now if you will excuse me, I am getting a free massage at work.

 

[Tgace]

I don't subscribe to the "if Norway can do it so can we" mentality. The US is composed of States. We are not one singular entity. Population size, ethnic makeup, history etc are all vastly different.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[granfire]

I don't subscribe to the "if Norway can do it so can we" mentality. The US is composed of States. We are not one singular entity. Population size, ethnic makeup, history etc are all vastly different.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Well, the bigger problem is really that, well, as a whole, the US does not care to learn from other countries. It's a mentality thing more than a matter of being a singular entity.

 

[arnisador]

I don't subscribe to the "if Norway can do it so can we" mentality.

But too many seem to have the mentality that nothing that works elsewhere can possibly work here...even modified.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think the message here is that scandinavia is not as socialist as everyone assumed. It's easier to start a business there than anywhere in Europe. They have the most respect for property rights than anywhere else in the region. The tax policy is a drag on the economy, but it is offset by greater freedoms elsewhere.

Still, public debt creeps upward and overall wealth is lower because of the high taxes.

Could the US do this? Surely, we already share many characteristics with scandinavia already. The biggest difference is the US insistence on being the policeman of the world and maintaining a global empire. The US would have to drastically change it's foreign policy and cut defense spending by over 90% before we could be more like scandinavian countries.

People don't realize that war and defense is a form of socialism as well. Countries that spend less and actually train for defense are freer than the US.

 

[Makalakumu]

As far as the Australian housing market is concerned it has been slow or has gone a little bit back over the pat five years. Now it is starting to grow again thanks to lower interest rates and less pessermism. Your assertion that the Australian housing situation is in a bubble that will pop is purely your opinion, and IMHO an uninformed one at that. There are many reasons the Australian market has been steady, not the least being that money is only lent to those with the capacity to service the debt, unlike the US banks that gave money to anyone, then sold the mortgages, with AAA rating, to others who ended up carrying the can when the debtors could not pay.

As to your Federal Reserve printing money ... they can only do it because the American people allow it!
:asian:

Low interest rates always cause bubbles to form in economies. Governments need low interest rates so they can borrow money cheaply and keep interest payments low. The American and most other people are simply ignorant of this fact.

 

[billc]

Here is an article on Norway I have posted before...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/the_norwegian_miracle.html

Let me bring that down to earth. First, Norway's population is about 4.7 million, or about the same South Carolina's, or a bit more than half of New York City's. That population is at least 98% white, and almost all of that is Norwegian. It is also about 90% Christian. About four out of five Norwegians live in cities, with almost one in five living in Oslo itself.
Norway might be liberal, but it is not diverse. (The U.S., for [COLOR=#11B000 !important]comparison[/COLOR], is 80% white and 70% Christian. So whites outnumber minorities 4-to-1 in the U.S. In Norway, the ratio is 50-to-1.)
But perhaps the two charts below might give us some insight into Norway's economic success.

Norway's Crude Oil Production Source: U.S. Dept. of Energy.Crude Oil Prices Source: U.S. Dept. of Energy.​

It just so happens that Norway's success over recent decades coincided rather nicely with two explosions: North Sea oil production and oil [COLOR=#11B000 !important]prices[/COLOR].

So the simple-minded story is that Norway is some great socialist state yet its economy is humming along just nicely. Let me summarize its real keys to prosperity.

• A tiny, non-diverse, predominantly white and Christian population.
• Drilling in its ocean for oil to become one of the biggest oil exporters on the planet, and the biggest by far on a per capita basis, all during a time when oil prices quintupled.
• Letting its carbon footprint grow at one of the fastest paces in Europe, a pace almost five times faster than the U.S.'s.
• Shrinking its government spending, the equivalent to the U.S. federal government cutting its spending in half over 16 years. Shrinking its government spending to about the level of the U.S.'s, and smaller than most of Europe's.
• A tax system that is flatter than flat; it is regressive -- the rich pay less than the non-rich.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/07/the_norwegian_miracle.html#ixzz2R1wTyuwk
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

 

[Makalakumu]

Norway is a great argument for States Rights.

 

[K-man]

Low interest rates always cause bubbles to form in economies. Governments need low interest rates so they can borrow money cheaply and keep interest payments low. The American and most other people are simply ignorant of this fact.

I don't subscribe to your opinion. Low interest rates are an indicator that an economy is struggling. The private economy is quite separate from Government borrowing. Governments usually borrow to fund infrastructure, nothing to do with keeping interest rates low. Depending on their credit rating, Governments can borrow at very low rates anytime. If they borrow to pay for wages or handouts, recurrent expenditure, then they will go down the drain very quickly. The people who are ignorant of your 'fact' are probably more right than you, because in is in fact, not 'fact'.

 

[Cirdan]

Let me bring that down to earth. First, Norway's population is about 4.7 million, or about the same South Carolina's, or a bit more than half of New York City's. That population is at least 98% white, and almost all of that is Norwegian. It is also about 90% Christian. About four out of five Norwegians live in cities, with almost one in five living in Oslo itself.
Norway might be liberal, but it is not diverse. (The U.S., for [COLOR=#11B000 !important]comparison[/COLOR], is 80% white and 70% Christian. So whites outnumber minorities 4-to-1 in the U.S. In Norway, the ratio is 50-to-1.)

The 90% christian is just a cover of course. In private all Norwegians worship All-Father Odin.

 

[K-man]

I don't understand why you guys are bagging Norway. Norway has a healthy economy, a good standard of living, good health care for all its citizens and a very democratic system of Government with input from multiple political parties. How you define 'Socialist' is up to you but from an American perspective most
other first world countries would appear 'socialist' because they care for their citizens and legislate to that effect. Some of those countries certainly are socialist and proud of that label.

Why don't you ask Cirdan where he would prefer to live. I doubt he would be thinking of emigrating anytime soon.

 

[Cirdan]

Why don't you ask Cirdan where he would prefer to live. I doubt he would be thinking of emigrating anytime soon.

The only place I have been thinking of moving to lately is Spitzbergen . However I haven`t visited US yet, maybe I will later this year. Friends who have been there have only good things to say about the country and its people. Plus I have lots of relatives over there.

Norway is overall a very good place to live, sure. We still have problems and argue about the smallest thing like any other country.

 

[Tgace]

The whole idea of "lets just try something" on a national/economic scale is a pipe dream IMO....Norway didn't just "try something"...their nation is a result of many influences over their history cooked in a pot containing all the ingredients mentioned in bills post.

Different ingredients, different method of cooking different results.

We are not Norway.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Makalakumu]

K-man I'm pulling my reply to interest rates back to the Aussie economy thread.