The Iain Abernethy of Taekwondo?

[nicerdicer]

Hi Fellow kickers,

I like Iain Abernethy's work, he combats Karate's McDojo-ism with legit Karate Kata applications for self defense. He has a whole curriculum about Karate Katas you can use to defend yourself.

I practice WTF with Taeguks. Does anyone know of a Sabum(nim) who has done something similar? Especially for self defense, I really want to know how to make Taekwondo work for the streets.

Here is the link to his website:

The practical application of karate Iain Abernethy

 

[Gnarlie]

Hi, try Master Donghee Lee. He has a channel on YouTube.

Simon O'Neill's Taegeuk Cipher stuff is similar.

Also some of Stuart Anslow's stuff is transferable between ITF and Kukki motions.

If you concentrate on visualising application throughout your poomsae practice, and use step sparring and self defence drills as a conduit for development of applied poomsae principles, you will find your own way.

To me, finding what works for yourself is way more effective and brings greater understanding than learning someone else's applications by rote.

Aim to apply principles rather than techniques, is the best advice I can offer.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Hi, try Master Donghee Lee. He has a channel on YouTube.
Simon O'Neill's Taegeuk Cipher stuff is similar.
Also some of Stuart Anslow's stuff is transferable between ITF and Kukki motions.................

To me, finding what works for yourself is way more effective and brings greater understanding than learning someone else's applications by rote.

Aim to apply principles rather than techniques, is the best advice I can offer.

Agree with the above. Using the books is the beginning. Don't limit yourself to TKD people . You will note similar motions with "Alternate Application " books that are mainly based on other arts since those arts are the roots of TKD. One of the grand daddy's is "Bubishi". You can find other stuff in Books by Vince Morris and george Dilman (Who is off the deep end on some stuff, but other stuff offers insight.)

While Gnarlie uses the term "Principles" I use the term "Concepts".

If I teach you a hundred techniques you may understand a single concept, but if you learn a single concept you will understand 100 techniques.

 

[Gnarlie]

I went to a seminar with VM a couple of years back, was great.

 

[TrueJim]

Ditto on Lee Dong Hee...also, would you believe even the K-Tigers did an applications video?

Taegeuk Poomsae - Taekwondo Wiki

 

[Earl Weiss]

I went to a seminar with VM a couple of years back, was great.

I did as well when he was here in Chicago. That is how I bought the book.

 

[Gnarlie]

I did as well when he was here in Chicago. That is how I bought the book.

I remember I had a whopping bruise behind my elbow from that seminar after he demo'd a wicked forearm strike / takedown on me. I have never forgotten the technique or the particular strike and pressure points involved.

His assistant instructor was pretty brutal with the collarbone pressure point takedowns too. I actually blacked out a little from one of those. Somehow they have remained in my repertoire as well.

 

[Tez3]

Iain's work can be used and frequently is for TKD.

 

[Gnarlie]

Absolutely, although it does mean changing some of the fundamental mechanics of the basic movements. For example the Shuto / Yangsonnal Godeureo Bakkat Makgi movements are different to such a degree that Iain's interpretations don't work without adopting the Karate mechanic with the front hand on the inside...

 

[Tez3]

On Iain's forum there is a section for Korean forms which I'm sure would be of use.
Korean Forms Iain Abernethy

 

[nicerdicer]

The Taeguk Cipher is great! Thankyou for the hint!! I will buy and apply

 

[Gnarlie]

The Taeguk Cipher is great! Thankyou for the hint!! I will buy and apply

Don't believe everything you read though...I think a lot of the Taegeuk Cipher tries to directly apply poomsae motions (which is not what they are intended for) but sometimes strays too far from the intent or concept of the motion. I have had more success applying principles / concepts from poomsae than directly applying movements.

Real self defence is not 'if he / then do this' ie is not technique based...try to find your own way.

 

[nicerdicer]

Don't believe everything you read though...I think a lot of the Taegeuk Cipher tries to directly apply poomsae motions (which is not what they are intended for) but sometimes strays too far from the intent or concept of the motion. I have had more success applying principles / concepts from poomsae than directly applying movements.

Real self defence is not 'if he / then do this' ie is not technique based...try to find your own way.

If they're not for self defense, what are they for?

 

[TrueJim]

If they're not for self defense, what are they for?

I think various people have various theories on the virtues (or lack thereof) of martial arts forms in general. I believe some people would argue that the applications of forms are less important than the other things that forms presumably provide: development of muscle-memory for combinations, development of better technique for generating power, development of balance, learning better control of breathing, etc. I suspect what Gnarlie meant was that the forms themselves shouldn't be taken too literally as being virtual fights. He's arguing that the principles demonstrated in poomsae are more important than the imaginary fight that's taking place.

Personally, I think they're fun to do, and they tire me out, so I must be getting some exercise!

 

[Dirty Dog]

If they're not for self defense, what are they for?

Teaching Taekwondo, of course. Which includes a lot more than just self defense.
Mostly, they're for teaching focus, balance, concentration, self-discipline, movement, principles, etc etc etc.

I think various people have various theories on the virtues (or lack thereof) of martial arts forms in general. I believe some people would argue that the applications of forms are less important than the other things that forms presumably provide: development of muscle-memory for combinations, development of better technique for generating power, development of balance, learning better control of breathing, etc. I suspect what Gnarlie meant was that the forms themselves shouldn't be taken too literally as being virtual fights. He's arguing that the principles demonstrated in poomsae are more important than the imaginary fight that's taking place.

Personally, I think they're fun to do, and they tire me out, so I must be getting some exercise!

The folks who developed the kicho, taegeuk, palgwae and yudanja forms will tell you flat out that there is no "imaginary fight" taking place. They ought to know...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Iain's work can be used and frequently is for TKD.

+1

There can be and is a lot of cross-over. Similar movements can have similar interpretations. Abernethy, O'Neill and Anslow are all on the same sheet of music. Any/all can provide a good foundation to be built upon.

 

[WaterGal]

Don't believe everything you read though...I think a lot of the Taegeuk Cipher tries to directly apply poomsae motions (which is not what they are intended for) but sometimes strays too far from the intent or concept of the motion. I have had more success applying principles / concepts from poomsae than directly applying movements.

Is this one of those things where they're trying so hard to find a reason you'd do exactly this sequence of moves, that it gets kind of improbable and not very useful? I've definitely seem some of that. Stuff like, if two guys attack you at once, and one guy does X, and the other does Y, then you can do two scissor blocks like in Taegeuk 7 to defeat them both at the same time. I mean, okay, but how often are you really going to encounter that exact situation? (For Taegeuk 7, I think doing the block, shoulder grab, knee strike is a better choice - that's actually a useful self-defense move.)

 

[Dirty Dog]

Is this one of those things where they're trying so hard to find a reason you'd do exactly this sequence of moves, that it gets kind of improbable and not very useful? I've definitely seem some of that. Stuff like, if two guys attack you at once, and one guy does X, and the other does Y, then you can do two scissor blocks like in Taegeuk 7 to defeat them both at the same time. I mean, okay, but how often are you really going to encounter that exact situation? (For Taegeuk 7, I think doing the block, shoulder grab, knee strike is a better choice - that's actually a useful self-defense move.)

That's a pretty literal interpretation of the movement, and I agree you're not likely use it as a paired block vs two opponents. However, there are tons and tons of other things the same movement can be used for. The same movement can be used as a disarm. Or a takedown.Or a simultaneous block and strike. All valid uses, and all using the motion taught as a scissors block in Taegeuk 7 or Palgwae 5.
Names are needed, especially when you're working with a group. But they're also limiting. Because we call it a scissors block, people don't consider that the same movement can be used as an attack.

 

[Gnarlie]

Agree. Scissor 'block' has a number of aggressive uses, particularly those close in at a 45 degree angle, for example block and counter with a groin attack, switching to pull arm and forearm smash the neck. Or arm manipulations using similar hand motions.

I still think that motion is more about illustrating the principle of simultaneous two handed blocking (or attacking) without becoming entangled with crossed arms. It's also a preparatory step for Wesanteul Makki in the next form, which IMO is the really useful variant.

Incidentally, scissor block seems to be an example a technique that is widely misunderstood in terms of HOW it should be done.

 

[TrueJim]

Incidentally, scissor block seems to be an example a technique that is widely misunderstood in terms of HOW it should be done.

I'm pretty sure I don't do it well. How should it be done?